New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast
Results 181 to 210 of 246
  1. - Top - End - #181
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    -empowerment stories work best when they are about real capabilities.
    For the third time - can you very plainly spell out what she is doing that you find so unreal? Because "kicking spears" hardly seems like her application to the Justice League, though at least Lethologica is making an attempt to articulate what the problem is.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  2. - Top - End - #182
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Brother Oni's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Cippa's River Meadow
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Heh. I'm quite the reverse - I grew up with Crouching Tiger, Hero, and House of Flying Daggers, so all the qinggong is completely normal to me, while I tend to struggle with older HK action films due to production values and cheesy (probably poorly-translated) dialogue.
    No, the dialogue was fairly cheesy (and very toned down - there's lots of swearing in Cantonese).

    I had a bit of fun lip-synching issues in reverse recently - the character models in the Ghost of Tsushima cut scenes have been animated for English dialogue, however I've been playing the game in Japanese, so the lips still don't match up.

    Quote Originally Posted by t209 View Post
    I did think like, “why didn’t he or the government asked for Mulan dad to be a back line officer, like drill instructor or staff officer”.
    Well, he did try to walk to accept the letter without using a cane when the scribe showed up as a means to show that he is physically active.
    I think he really don’t want to be a staff officer.
    I'm not entirely sure on actual Northern Wei practices as I'm more familiar with the Qin, but it's due to different military structure.

    Under the Qin, the smallest unit is 5 soldiers; 4 grunts and a NCO. The NCO is responsible for training, feeding and arming his men, so would have to be physically fit and able.

    Two of these units would be under the command of a more senior NCO and possibly an adjutant (a 10-man squad leader) then ten of these would be under the command of an officer and their aides (100-man commander). It then jumps to 300-man, 1000-man then increments of 1000 up to 5000-man commander; above that is the general level.

    It's important to note that with the exception of the commanders (who are typically nobility), they're all conscripted militia men, and they're all expected to go into battle. Drill instructors and other support troops tend to be a feature of professional full-time standing armies, which don't happen until about the Song Dynasty (~ mid 10 Century AD). Staff officers in the modern military sense don't appear until the 18th Century - all the admin/logistical/intelligence/planning roles were handled informally by the officers and their aides.

    Father Hua, as an experienced soldier but not nobility, would most likely go in as either a 10-man squad leader or possibly an aide to a commander. Mulan went in as a grunt, thus depriving the military of an experienced NCO, so without her magic chi powers, you could regard her joining up instead as more a hindrance than a boost.

  3. - Top - End - #183
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    On the tip of my tongue

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    No, the dialogue was fairly cheesy (and very toned down - there's lots of swearing in Cantonese).

    I had a bit of fun lip-synching issues in reverse recently - the character models in the Ghost of Tsushima cut scenes have been animated for English dialogue, however I've been playing the game in Japanese, so the lips still don't match up.
    Swearing, huh...what, it's like this...

    Spoiler
    Show

    But in reverse? That's an entertaining thought to bring to my next old-school action flick.

    I haven't tried other languages in games much. FFXIV, once, but I'd already gotten used to the English voices by then so it was jarring. Doesn't help that I'm effectively American monolingual, and while reading subtitles in cutscenes is fine, reading them while playing could be an issue.

  4. - Top - End - #184
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lord Raziere's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    For the third time - can you very plainly spell out what she is doing that you find so unreal? Because "kicking spears" hardly seems like her application to the Justice League, though at least Lethologica is making an attempt to articulate what the problem is.
    You have explicitly, with your own posts acknowledged the following:

    Jumping high, dodging arrows? Any D&D monk can do that without magic. She ran up a wall once or twice
    And the whole point of chi by the way is that everyone DOES have it.
    Except there are male chi users
    chi is a supernatural concept, not a thing that exists in reality no matter how many people have it in the movie. do you now deny having acknowledged a supernatural concept existing in this movie? and referring to DnD capabilities as if they are comparable to real capabilities? Rare Reverse Guy at the Gym Fallacy going on here.

    but to answer your question: you mean kicking an arrow while in midair, so it precisely pierces a guy in the heart, which is downright ridiculous. I'm 99.9% sure thats obviously impossible. throwing an arrow is one thing, throwing a narrow in midair is a bit more challenging due to that your fall and thus constantly moving and thus much harder to aim, but kicking anything with precision is a bit dodgy, people struggle to kick a ball in a straight line, you expect me to believe someone could that with a long thin weapon so well that it flies straight with such accuracy? No.

    next is her stunt when she is a child of using a stick to stop her fall then slide down a stalls roof. wuxia stunts like this would never work, as things like that are generally not supposed to hold a human's weight. the stick would snap and the roof would roof would probably break under her weight.

    then there is the stunt where she somehow leaps over an entire soldier her face to the sky in the middle of combat, which makes no sense, why are you leaping over them?

    basically any wuxia stunt will assume the person do it is much lighter than they actually would be, yet somehow not move like they are on the moon. being able to weigh as much as feather when you want is a superpower no one possesses. this isn't something that requires a nerd-brain, Ph.D or excessive attention to detail to figure out: just hop and you'll know that you won't reach even a foot off the ground. furthermore, any world where such stunts are possible would be designed architecturally different from ours: even leaping higher than most people can be exploited to make natural barriers to entry so that people who don't know the secret simply can't get in. or imagine a bridge where some people can balance on a thin railing like structure easily: a qi-user simply has to run across that structure while any pursuers who don't know the secret struggle to get across- then they just get out their bow and just start shooting while any person foolish enough to cross without ki falls and dies. basically wuxia makes archers from deadly ranged fighters into highly mobile machines of death, and the fact they didn't worldbuild around people having qi to exploit their advantages shows that its just a device to make Mulan stronger.

    and please, Justice League is hardly a good example of most superheroes, they are an extremely cosmic end of the superhero spectrum. but thats neither here nor there.

    and the accented cinema video brings up a few other good points:
    1- this Mulan is culturally insensitive. many of the values expressed in it are things modern chinese no longer believe in. it would be like expecting modern americans to act like knights or wild west cowboys. and you can't even give it the "but its time period accurate!" justification because it dialogue is stilted and doesn't reflect how people actually talk, and its written by no one chinese so chances are they don't know what they talking about and thus not actually chinese. granted animated Mulan probably has its own problems, but its dialogue was at least more natural and its characters lovable.

    2-female empowerment is more than just whether they can fight. its about having a purpose and a life beyond what men define her to be. in this Mulan, she is completely defined by duty, by what the emperor expects of her, by the fact that she some super-special power that makes her valuable to the military that they're willing to make an exception to their rules. Which is not the same as valuing her as a person. because anyone of any morality would gladly exploit a warrior like that to their advantage by feeding her personal ego over recognizing the value of women as a whole. in the animated Mulan, they deliberately went out of their way to cast aside the patriarchal symbols being offered to focus on the human relationship- the only relationship that truly matters

    3-finally there is the way she is empowered- by talent. not by training like everyone else, but by simply having willpower and being naturally talented. traits not everyone possesses. its damaging to people without confidence, to people who have to work for their skills. one of the truest expressions of humanity is things achieved not by a flourish and effortlessness, but by blood, sweat and tears to show that there is sacrifice of time, that they are dedicated to what they do. and further that work not just being hard work, but smart and full of ingenuity and creativity so that things are not only done, but done in newer better ways. this live action Mulan? does nothing BUT fight, does nothing but brute force with skills only partially earned, without any thought beyond that. thus she is not redefining herself as a human, but redefining herself as nothing but a warrior without any life outside it to be used and discarded by those men willing to throw her aside before- why wouldn't they do so again?
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  5. - Top - End - #185
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Brother Oni's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Cippa's River Meadow
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Swearing, huh...what, it's like this...

    Spoiler
    Show

    But in reverse? That's an entertaining thought to bring to my next old-school action flick.
    Yeah, there's a lot of nuance in other languages that don't translate well. My mother used to complain a lot when we were growing up that we were eating too much junk food; the direct Cantonese translation is 'Eat Dog [Faeces]'.

    Even in Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story, after the fight scene while filming The Big Boss, where Bruce tears the film out of the camera at the end, the English translation is something along the lines of "What are you doing?! You'll never work in this town again!".
    The director was far more colourful.

    If you want to bring something entertaining for your old school action flick, take a look at lektors, or the guys that do Polish dubs of western media. They do it in a rapid emotionless monotone with a voice that's been smoking a 20 pack a day for thirty-plus years, and there's a single actor for all parts.
    The Polish dub of a Friends episode was one of the weirdest things I have ever seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    I haven't tried other languages in games much. FFXIV, once, but I'd already gotten used to the English voices by then so it was jarring. Doesn't help that I'm effectively American monolingual, and while reading subtitles in cutscenes is fine, reading them while playing could be an issue.
    Reading subtitles while playing/watching is a learnt skill and I don't blame people for sticking to their native language when engaging in their relaxation hobbies.

    My missus is Japanese, so I'm somewhat obligated to try and learn the language and I've picked up enough to spot translational issues and other missed cultural nuances that don't translate well. Honourifics is one thing that doesn't translate well and even in the dub for Ghost of Tsushima, there's discrepancies between the dub and the subtitles that say a lot about the relationships between the characters.

    Spoiler: Ghost of Tsushima
    Show
    Adachi Masako is a friend of the protagonist's mother, so always calls him by his given name 'Jin'. Up to where I've reached in the game, she never calls him anything but by 'Jin', whereas the subtitles and the English dub generally use 'Lord Sakai' when they do.

    Her use of just 'Jin' implies either a very close and a senior position to him or she's just plain rude; in this case, you find out that Masako's sons and Jin used to spend summers playing in the lake while she and Jin's mother gossiped and traded stories, making the former true. Meanwhile Jin is never anything but respectful, calling her 'Masako-sama'. The English and the subs try to reflect this by using nothing but 'Lady Masako', but is missing an element of familiarity.

    There's also a fair amount of omitted titles - a lot of the peasants start off with 'o-samurai' whereas 'o-samurai-sama' is the correct term.

    I am missing a lot of the background chatter as that's not translated, so I'm planning to play it again in English. I was dreading it, but it seems that they've done a good job: link.

    My wife is entertained as the Japanese voice actors are very famous for other roles in anime, with Sakai Jin's voice actor best known for Zorro in One Piece and Hijikata Toshiro in Gintama.
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2020-09-11 at 06:09 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #186
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    but to answer your question: you mean kicking an arrow while in midair, so it precisely pierces a guy in the heart, which is downright ridiculous. I'm 99.9% sure thats obviously impossible. throwing an arrow is one thing, throwing a narrow in midair is a bit more challenging due to that your fall and thus constantly moving and thus much harder to aim, but kicking anything with precision is a bit dodgy, people struggle to kick a ball in a straight line, you expect me to believe someone could that with a long thin weapon so well that it flies straight with such accuracy? No.
    I don't think we have to be coy about this. It is impossible plain and simple. Watch the Mythbusters try out just deflecting/catching an arrow. To manage the latter they had to "dumb down" the process so much it's more magic trick than a real world thing. They finally managed it with a martial artists reacting to seeing the arrow being loosened towards him. An arrow with a tennisball on the "pointy" end, at a speed I assume was only a fraction of a real arrow. Some of the test with a pneumatic arm at superhuman speeds couldn't do it even, there wasn't enough friction between had object and arrow to transfer enough energy to slow it down. The original myth was ninjas catching/deflecting arrows in combat situations which th eMythbuster concluded simply could not be done at human reactionspeeds and strengths.

    Imparting enough force onto an arrow midflight to redirect it without just breaking it? Plain impossible. Certainly not by kicking it. An arrow is despite the saying not flying straight as an arrow, it wobbles through the air like a sidewinder (if sidewinders went straight on and not, well sidewise). Which means you somehow need get the whole of this wavefunction (sort of) turned by putting force onto only one part of it? If you are telekinetic and could exert force all over it's surface so as not to overstress a single point, yea you could probably do it. With superreflexes and some time.

    I'm not even gonna touch the idea that you manage to aim this redirection into a precise location.
    Last edited by snowblizz; 2020-09-11 at 07:04 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #187
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Right behind you!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    For the third time - can you very plainly spell out what she is doing that you find so unreal? Because "kicking spears" hardly seems like her application to the Justice League, though at least Lethologica is making an attempt to articulate what the problem is.
    Oh - she's definitely superhuman. But generally having a single soldier (as opposed to a commander/leader) be a huge deal on a battlefield with at 100+ on each side, it's difficult to NOT have them be a bit superhuman.

    And for a Chinese myth, it's pretty common to add in some wuxia stuff in movies. Hardly just because she was a girl.

    In the cartoon they got around that with the avalanche thing. But really, I'm not sure how much less silly it is for the MC to be the ONLY ONE EVER to figure out that avalanches were a thing that could be triggered via rocket. And be able to knock one out that a stampede of horses hadn't already set off.
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2020-09-11 at 07:16 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #188
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Vinyadan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    In the cartoon they got around that with the avalanche thing. But really, I'm not sure how much less silly it is for the MC to be the ONLY ONE EVER to figure out that avalanches were a thing that could be triggered via rocket.
    You don't need to be the only one ever though, you just need to realise that it can be done now and have the initiative (and bravery, or spirit of self-sacrifice) to do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  9. - Top - End - #189
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Mushu the dragon isn't even included in this movie. I'll pass.
    Last edited by Bartmanhomer; 2020-09-11 at 07:28 AM.
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

  10. - Top - End - #190
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    but to answer your question: you mean kicking an arrow while in midair, so it precisely pierces a guy in the heart, which is downright ridiculous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    next is her stunt when she is a child of using a stick to stop her fall then slide down a stalls roof.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    then there is the stunt where she somehow leaps over an entire soldier her face to the sky in the middle of combat, which makes no sense, why are you leaping over them?
    So bog-standard martial arts movie stuff? That's really all you've got? And not even particularly impressive by wuxia standards. Call me when she's doing stuff like this. Surely you have more.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  11. - Top - End - #191
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Vinyadan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So bog-standard martial arts movie stuff? That's really all you've got? And not even particularly impressive by wuxia standards. Call me when she's doing stuff like this. Surely you have more.
    Unrelated, but I think that's where the band Unleash the Archers took its name.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  12. - Top - End - #192
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Let's go with some of the clips shown here (bonus: another version of the argument Raziere, Grey Wolf etc. are making) as examples of Mulan doing special things with her chi:
    I had not been aware they had put in an actual character who, because she's not as special and Chosen One as Mulan, only gets to marry. Good grief. "Girl, if you aren't a prodigy, you better marry rich" is one heck of a message to put in a Disney film in 2020.

    Grey Wolf
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.
    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  13. - Top - End - #193
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Killer Angel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Lustria
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    I don't think the critical drinker has already been posted





    They should GIVE ME 30 bucks, to watch it.
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2020-09-11 at 11:06 AM.
    Do I contradict myself?
    Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)


    Things that increase my self esteem:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang View Post
    Great analysis KA. I second all things you said
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeYounger View Post
    Great analysis KA, I second everything you said here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu_Bonkosi View Post
    If I have a player using Paladin in the future I will direct them to this. Good job.
    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    THIS is proof that KA is amazing
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Killer Angel, you have an excellent taste in books
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Historical zombies is a fantastic idea.

  14. - Top - End - #194
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So bog-standard martial arts movie stuff? That's really all you've got? And not even particularly impressive by wuxia standards. Call me when she's doing stuff like this. Surely you have more.
    You still seem to be missing a major point: those things in "bog-standard martial arts movies" still make a clear demarcation between "people that matter" (slightly more formally, "characters with agency") and "people that don't". The complaint isn't simply that the main character does supernatural things; it's that they do supernatural things when the story tells us that they are trying to fit in with people who can't.

  15. - Top - End - #195
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lord Raziere's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So bog-standard martial arts movie stuff? That's really all you've got? And not even particularly impressive by wuxia standards. Call me when she's doing stuff like this. Surely you have more.
    it doesn't matter if its "bog standard" or "not particularly impressive by wuxia standards" its still a departure from reality and a changing of the message. I love martial arts action I'm big into action-anime and I'd love to get into the wuxia genre at some point, I'm all for it when its appropriate, but how awesome the action is has no bearing on the message of a work if done well and actively can detract from it if done badly. I also like Mulan from the animated movie when I was young. but Mulan shouldn't be a wuxia story just because its a chinese one, just because a culture originates a genre doesn't mean thats all that they can do and why limit them? Its because I'm so into such things that I'm aware how it can screw things up, nor would I want a story that has nothing to do with the wuxia genre and works better without it to be made into wuxia-lite.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2020-09-11 at 01:42 PM.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  16. - Top - End - #196
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    it doesn't matter if its "bog standard" or "not particularly impressive by wuxia standards" its still a departure from reality and a changing of the message. I love martial arts action I'm big into action-anime and I'd love to get into the wuxia genre at some point, I'm all for it when its appropriate, but how awesome the action is has no bearing on the message of a work if done well and actively can detract from it if done badly. I also like Mulan from the animated movie when I was young. but Mulan shouldn't be a wuxia story just because its a chinese one, just because a culture originates a genre doesn't mean thats all that they can do and why limit them? Its because I'm so into such things that I'm aware how it can screw things up, nor would I want a story that has nothing to do with the wuxia genre and works better without it to be made into wuxia-lite.
    The wuxia also wouldn't detract form the message it it were something that everyone learn, the antagonists could do well and consistently, and Mulan had work ahrd to earn it... Rather than being born super-duper-special.
    Homebrew Stuff:

  17. - Top - End - #197
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    There's also the big increase in downloads, and the fact that theater chains don't get a cut of the proceeds...
    A bit late here, but there is an industry term for the cut of the proceeds that theaters get: "negligible".

    Seriously, there's a reason dollar theaters exist, and it ain't that they're missing out on their cut if the box office take.

    Also, admittedly, my martial arts jams are mostly Jackie Chan and Tony Jaa, and I haven't seen Mulan, but nothing that either side is presenting sounds anything like "bog-standard martial arts movie stuff" to me.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-09-11 at 08:47 PM.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  18. - Top - End - #198
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    A bit late here, but there is an industry term for the cut of the proceeds that theaters get: "negligible".

    Seriously, there's a reason dollar theaters exist, and it ain't that they're missing out on their cut if the box office take.

    Also, admittedly, my martial arts jams are mostly Jackie Chan and Tony Jaa, and I haven't seen Mulan, but nothing that either side is presenting sounds anything like "bog-standard martial arts movie stuff" to me.
    From what I've seen, it's bog-standard wire-work (or wuxia). It's not martial arts in the sense you mention, but it does fall under "martial arts" (if blatantly unrealistic martial arts). Wiki, for example, discusses wuxia as a subgenre of martial arts films, and calls what you're talking about "kung fu films".

  19. - Top - End - #199
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by uncool View Post
    From what I've seen, it's bog-standard wire-work (or wuxia). It's not martial arts in the sense you mention, but it does fall under "martial arts" (if blatantly unrealistic martial arts). Wiki, for example, discusses wuxia as a subgenre of martial arts films, and calls what you're talking about "kung fu films".
    Oh, I totally agree. I'm just noting that bog-standard wuxia (the only one I've seen was CTHD, which was gorgeous) is not the same as bog-standard martial arts movie.

    And Tony Jaa is not kung fu, but that's an irrelevant quibble.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-09-11 at 09:09 PM.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  20. - Top - End - #200
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lord Raziere's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Also, admittedly, my martial arts jams are mostly Jackie Chan and Tony Jaa, and I haven't seen Mulan, but nothing that either side is presenting sounds anything like "bog-standard martial arts movie stuff" to me.
    thats because those guys aren't wuxia. to break it down simply and clarify:

    jackie chan/hong kong style martial arts flick: equivalent to an action movie, probably unrealistic but no mention of magic and the most grounded of them
    Wuxia: is basically chinese low fantasy, has supernatural elements but the focus is still human
    Xianxia: is basically chinese high fantasy, full on immortals and spirits and whatnot.

    so technically at least three different genres when it comes to martial arts, much like how Rambo, Conan and Gandalf are three different genres. we're currently talking about whether Mulan should be eastern low fantasy action girl and whether said eastern low fantasy was properly executed to empower her, just to clear up any confusion.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  21. - Top - End - #201
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by uncool View Post
    You still seem to be missing a major point: those things in "bog-standard martial arts movies" still make a clear demarcation between "people that matter" (slightly more formally, "characters with agency") and "people that don't". The complaint isn't simply that the main character does supernatural things; it's that they do supernatural things when the story tells us that they are trying to fit in with people who can't.
    "Main characters are special" isn't a particularly shocking state of affairs for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    A bit late here, but there is an industry term for the cut of the proceeds that theaters get: "negligible".

    Seriously, there's a reason dollar theaters exist, and it ain't that they're missing out on their cut if the box office take.
    Given AMC's immediate and extreme reaction to Trolls 2 (of all the tentpoles) having skipped them, I'd say they don't consider it to be negligible at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  22. - Top - End - #202
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Given AMC's immediate and extreme reaction to Trolls 2 (of all the tentpoles) having skipped them, I'd say they don't consider it to be negligible at all.
    I didn't say that theaters didn't make money. I said they didn't take almost any of the box office. AMC's reaction had nothing to do with the money they were getting from the ticket sales.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-09-11 at 10:54 PM.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  23. - Top - End - #203
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    On the tip of my tongue

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Theaters typically keep about half of box office in the US. Not as much as the 80-85% they keep from concessions, but far from negligible. (Example source, but really Google is the source.)

    Anyway. Different genres have different standards for what makes characters special, and part of what this thread is grappling with is a genre shift. Much like Mu Shu would have been out of place in Mulan 2009, the protagonist of Mulan 2020 would be out of place in the animated film. But that's different from examining whether she is out of place in her own setting, and what implication that has for her story.

    To me, more telling than any feat I've seen Mulan pull off is the portrayal of the hare story from the original poem (as seen in the video I linked). It speaks to a shallow, clumsy, careless treatment of the material.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2020-09-11 at 11:16 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #204
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Theaters typically keep about half of box office in the US. Not as much as the 80-85% they keep from concessions, but far from negligible. (Example source, but really Google is the source.)
    Ehhh, not really. That's cherry-picked numbers from the biggest, baddest boys on the block.*

    For a more in-depth explanation, there are a lot of things going on behind the scenes that play into this (eg people whose entire job is to negotiate which theaters get which movies and which don't and much weight being thrown around by the bigger chains and so on and so on), but the bottom line is that theaters pretty much run on popcorn. There's a reason it is far and away the highest price discrepancy between cost and sale price than anything else, with drinks second to that. The policies (mini ads for the theater, projection/sound setup, concession, etc. If you see a 20 second clip of squares that fold out into more squares that fold out and so on and ends with "Christie Digital", or the old Regal roller coaster clip, those are examples of a policy in cinema) hype up popcorn and coke above all else for a reason. There's stockroom for candy, but it's peanuts compared to how many 50 lb popcorn seed bags they have on hand, and the drink bibs are liquid gold. Bibs cost aboiy a hundred a pop and make 6 times the amount of drinks, so a 5 gallon syrup will make 30 gallons of coke. That's 120 32-oz cups (more, really, since ice, but let's go with the worst figures for my argument). Let's have a downright cheap theater price of five bucks for that cup, that's $600 off a $100 investment. Even a small theater will have at least five Cokes hooked up at a time, and double digits isn't uncommon, not to mention sprites, pibbs, etc etc. And they run through cokes like crazy - even with that many hookups, in the summer you're changing at least one a day, and weekends? You lose count.

    And even that is nothing compared to the popcorn.

    AMC wasn't angry about losing the box office cut. AMC wasnt even angry about losing the potential people that would buy concessions - well imean, they were, but not enough to use the nuclear option. AMC was angry about a trial balloon into big-budget mainstream motion picture release via streaming, entirely cutting the theaters out. AMC was angry about a testcrun into circumventing the entire theater business model, potentially ending up shutting down the entire company for good. And that is worth resorting to the nuclear option over.

    *That is, they are the biggest chains with the most theaters and have the best bargaining position for contract negotiations. Even then, saying they get 50% of the box is like saying that Brand name Dietpill helps shed pounds - which is to say, results not typical. They'll maybe get 50% at best on small flicks in March, but I guarantee you they are making pennies on the tendollar when it comes to things people actually line up for. Star Wars ain't giving half to Carmike. Hell, Smurfs 4: Smurf n' Turf ain't giving even five percent to Carmike, let alone half.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  25. - Top - End - #205
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    While the specific range might vary widely by film, the underlying point - considering these relationships/cuts to be "negligible" - is specious. You might say that a 50% cut is rare, but even for a single major film that can be tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars over said film's theatrical run, and these companies deal in far more than a single film each year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    To me, more telling than any feat I've seen Mulan pull off is the portrayal of the hare story from the original poem (as seen in the video I linked). It speaks to a shallow, clumsy, careless treatment of the material.
    To be clear, I'm not saying Mulan 2020 is perfect, nor even particularly good. I think somewhere between the two films you'd have as close to a great western imagining of the tale as it's possible to get. But given that I rented it for both my own household and that of my parents sharing my account, I'd say I got my money's worth.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  26. - Top - End - #206
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    While the specific range might vary widely by film, the underlying point - considering these relationships/cuts to be "negligible" - is specious. You might say that a 50% cut is rare, but even for a single major film that can be tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars over said film's theatrical run, and these companies deal in far more than a single film each year.
    It is not specious, and no major film will ever give that big a cut - again, for most major films, it's pennies on the ticket. The only thing theaters are getting even a halfway decent percent on are the ones that aren't actually raking in the money. At my theater alone, there were at least 8 different passes for free tickets, the most common being Readmit and Complimentary passes, and annual passes were rare but saw heavy use - it technically only allowed two tickets, but we were explicitly told that an annual pass holder got as many as they wanted. It usually went to people with connections even small connections, like the family of the property owner. No free concession passes, of course. Readmits? Handed out like water. Auditorium was too cold, too warm, too loud, you'd get a Readmit if you complained. Hell, we'd get handfulls of Readmit passes to go trade for food on not-so-rare occassion. But popcorn too salty? Sorry, have a Readmit, but you'll have to buy another bucket if that one isn't to your tastes. And don't get me started on how easy it was for unscrupulous employees to scam the box office. I busted more than my share of schemes that were unbelievably simple. Only security there was a camera to make sure you weren't pocketing cash, and that was only reviewed of the tills came up short. There are ways around that, it turns out. Meanwhile every notice they'll never give another bag or full-size cup? Concessions counts everything, sometimes multiple times a day. Bags are counted, cups are counted, nacho trays are counted, the damn pickle bags are counted.

    Odd choices for raking in the dollars from the box office. Excellent decisions if box goes to Hollywood and the snacks are what keeps the lights on.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-09-12 at 12:13 AM.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  27. - Top - End - #207
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    On the tip of my tongue

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    stuff
    Ah. I'm guessing the discrepancy comes from my source talking revenue and not profits and therefore providing a severely incomplete picture of the situation.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2020-09-12 at 12:33 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #208
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Brother Oni's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Cippa's River Meadow
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    thats because those guys aren't wuxia. to break it down simply and clarify:

    jackie chan/hong kong style martial arts flick: equivalent to an action movie, probably unrealistic but no mention of magic and the most grounded of them
    Wuxia: is basically chinese low fantasy, has supernatural elements but the focus is still human
    Xianxia: is basically chinese high fantasy, full on immortals and spirits and whatnot.

    so technically at least three different genres when it comes to martial arts, much like how Rambo, Conan and Gandalf are three different genres. we're currently talking about whether Mulan should be eastern low fantasy action girl and whether said eastern low fantasy was properly executed to empower her, just to clear up any confusion.
    It also doesn't help when there's levels of Wuxia; Mr Vampire has nearly completely unpowered protagonists (only the priests have powers and they're along the lines of 'has the knowledge to use special tools'), with Hero/CTHD at the other end of the scale.

    The only Xianxia stuff that I'm aware of that's made it over to the West are the various interpretations of Journey to the West (Uproar in Heaven is my favourite, although Monkey is a classic), and various Nezha origin stories (the one I've seen is Nezha Conquers the Dragon Kings).
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2020-09-12 at 02:35 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #209
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2011

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Originally Posted by Brother Oni
    The only Xianxia stuff that I'm aware of that's made it over to the West are the various interpretations of Journey to the West (Uproar in Heaven is my favourite, although Monkey is a classic), and various Nezha origin stories (the one I've seen is Nezha Conquers the Dragon Kings).
    I’m not sure if it’s actually Xianxia, but Bigfish and Begonia is a Chinese high-fantasy film that’s thoughtful, beautiful and tragic. I don’t know enough of the source material to have a sense of how freely they’re adapting it, but it seems to draw on a wide range of Chinese mythology. I wish we could get more movies like this one.

  30. - Top - End - #210
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Mulan Coming to Disney+

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It is not specious, and no major film will ever give that big a cut - again, for most major films, it's pennies on the ticket. The only thing theaters are getting even a halfway decent percent on are the ones that aren't actually raking in the money. At my theater alone, there were at least 8 different passes for free tickets, the most common being Readmit and Complimentary passes, and annual passes were rare but saw heavy use - it technically only allowed two tickets, but we were explicitly told that an annual pass holder got as many as they wanted. It usually went to people with connections even small connections, like the family of the property owner. No free concession passes, of course. Readmits? Handed out like water. Auditorium was too cold, too warm, too loud, you'd get a Readmit if you complained. Hell, we'd get handfulls of Readmit passes to go trade for food on not-so-rare occassion. But popcorn too salty? Sorry, have a Readmit, but you'll have to buy another bucket if that one isn't to your tastes. And don't get me started on how easy it was for unscrupulous employees to scam the box office. I busted more than my share of schemes that were unbelievably simple. Only security there was a camera to make sure you weren't pocketing cash, and that was only reviewed of the tills came up short. There are ways around that, it turns out. Meanwhile every notice they'll never give another bag or full-size cup? Concessions counts everything, sometimes multiple times a day. Bags are counted, cups are counted, nacho trays are counted, the damn pickle bags are counted.

    Odd choices for raking in the dollars from the box office. Excellent decisions if box goes to Hollywood and the snacks are what keeps the lights on.
    AMC's financials are public and don't match up with this belief. Yes, the food and beverage margins are phenomenal (F&B revenues in 2019 = 1.7B from 0.3B F&B costs, i.e. 1.4B gross profit from concessions) but admissions minus licensing arrangements is still a bigger piece of their pie (2019 Admissions revenue = 3.3B minus 2019 film exhibition costs 1.7B =1.6B gross margin.) Smaller percentage, but larger in terms of dollars. The 10-K further defines "film exhibition costs" as "final settlement pursuant to our film licenses...based on aggregate terms established prior to the opening of the picture." This pattern repeats for 2018, and I would imagine it's similar for other players in the industry like Regal or Cinemark.

    In other words, while they get a much bigger percentage of GP from food and drinks, in terms of dollars, admissions - licensing fees to the distributors is still the bigger chunk of their overall take. And even if the two were in a dead heat, it would still be false to call the latter "negligible."
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •