Why Redcloak is my favourite character.

[Metastachydium]

With respect to the Giant, there is a reason to try to save the world even if the afterlife is "Awesome Happy Fun Times Forever":
The world is where new souls come from. Without new souls, the gods themselves cease to exist and the afterlife the new souls power eventually goes away.

Hm. Save the world to save the afterlife to have happy fun forever. That's not a bad line of thought, you know (even if it does not apply to the Stivkverse).

[Peelee]

With respect to the Giant, there is a reason to try to save the world even if the afterlife is "Awesome Happy Fun Times Forever":
The world is where new souls come from. Without new souls, the gods themselves cease to exist and the afterlife the new souls power eventually goes away.

That's a good reason for the gods to want the people to save the world, but doesn't really mean anything to the people themselves.

[Jason]

That's a good reason for the gods to want the people to save the world, but doesn't really mean anything to the people themselves.

Sure it does. All of your ancestors and all the people you know and loved who have died are there. Saving the world is saving everyone who ever lived on the world too.

[Peelee]

Sure it does. All of your ancestors and all the people you know and loved who have died are there. Saving the world is saving everyone who ever lived on the world too.

Eh, the gods can make a new world. Afterlife keeps chugging along, ancestors are good, nothing to worry about.

[Jason]

Eh, the gods can make a new world. Afterlife keeps chugging along, ancestors are good, nothing to worry about.

Except that the people living on the new world will not be the direct descendants of everyone who lived on the old world before it was destroyed, so there is motivation for the people in the afterlife (at least anyone who cares about their descendants) to want the still living to save the world as well.

[Peelee]

Except that the people living on the new world will not be the direct descendants of everyone who lived on the old world before it was destroyed, so there is motivation for the people in the afterlife (at least anyone who cares about their descendants) to want the still living to save the world as well.

Those descendents will get to spend eternity in the afterlife if the world is destroyed. Not really a problem.

[understatement]

I wouldn't say it's groundless, but I still don't think it's completely true either.

The Sapphire Guard being insufficiently punished simply means that the Southern gods may have had something against those particular goblins. It does not show that all the gods have it in for all goblins.

Having a minimum of one-third of the divine forces that created the world set against you is one-third more than any gods are supposed to have against a specific race.

Also, from Redcloak's point of view. He doesn't know which of the 12 gods are evil and which are not; all he knows is that the paladins collectively worship them, and they didn't get punished for their actions -- nor did they ever seek out Redcloak and offered him reparations.

On the flip side, has Redcloak, or any other goblin, for that matter, ever been punished by The Dark One, for killing humans or other races just because they weren't green? If not, then I say again "I don't see how you're na' already equal."

For the same reason Nergal doesn't punish Malack for mass enslavement, or why Loki doesn't punish Hilgya for setting Durkon ablaze. The Dark One is evil. The 12 Gods, and other pantheons collectively, are not.

(As my usual addendum, I obligingly add that no, Redcloak is absolutely no way justified in conquering Azure City, and he'll receive his punishment, whether divine or mortal, in due time.)

I wonder what Redcloak would think about the anime show Goblin Slayer.

I remembered seeing the versus matchup somewhere...long story short, Redcloak implodes him. The show's synopsis doesn't seem at all appealing, so I never watched it.

[WindStruck]

Last night, between dreams of beating my mother and going to Spain...

[Jason]

Those descendents will get to spend eternity in the afterlife if the world is destroyed. Not really a problem.

But there won't be any more of them if the world is destroyed.

[Luna_Mayflower]

I'd argue that the author thinks otherwise:


[Emphasis mine.]

The Giant's description of even the Good afterlives is one of the most horrifying things I've ever read. Everyone there has dementia and their lives never change. I can't agree that his idea of D&D's afterlife is like that, but obviously it is in OOTS.

Yes, I got into a quite vivid altercation with her in a car. I do hope it's not a portent, but knowing my dreams...

[Jason]

Having a minimum of one-third of the divine forces that created the world set against you is one-third more than any gods are supposed to have against a specific race.

Well, again, the Sapphire Guard is one group in one particular part of the world, and they were massacring one specific group of goblins - the group that happened to contain the current high priest of the Dark One who even then had a plan to threaten the other gods with destruction through the use of the gates the Sapphire Guard was founded to protect in the first place.

It does not show that the Southern gods are "against all goblins". All it really shows is that, in this one particular instance the Southern gods were unwilling to punish their nominal servants.

Redcloak is upset that a goblin could be killed without any repercussion if he enters a human city, just because he "has fangs and is green". But what will happen to a human if he enters a goblin village or hobgoblin city?
Again "I dinna' see how ye aren't already equal."

[Peelee]

But there won't be any more of them if the world is destroyed.

....and? The ones there were are in the afterlife for eternity. So now descendants are in the afterlife for eternity, ancestors are in the afterlife for eternity, the world is destroyed, a new world is made, their people and ancestors and descendants are in the afterlife for eternity, their world is destroyed, and on and on. Everything is copacetic.

We've seen the Stickworld afterlife. They by and large do not keep tabs on how many great-great-great whatever grandkids they have. They pretty much spend their time in the afterlife, keeping their concerns to the afterlife. There are few exceptions, but those are just that - exceptions.

[Squire Doodad]

....and? The ones there were are in the afterlife for eternity. So now descendants are in the afterlife for eternity, ancestors are in the afterlife for eternity, the world is destroyed, a new world is made, their people and ancestors and descendants are in the afterlife for eternity, their world is destroyed, and on and on. Everything is copacetic.

We've seen the Stickworld afterlife. They by and large do not keep tabs on how many great-great-great whatever grandkids they have. They pretty much spend their time in the afterlife, keeping their concerns to the afterlife. There are few exceptions, but those are just that - exceptions.

I should point out that the afterlife appears to technically not be an eternal one. However, souls last for a very long time, and you could probably go and check up on all of your ancestors up until Charlemagne, so the difference is not a meaningful one.

[Peelee]

I should point out that the afterlife appears to technically not be an eternal one. However, souls last for a very long time, and you could probably go and check up on all of your ancestors up until Charlemagne, so the difference is not a meaningful one.

Oh, it is most certainly not an eternal one. Which is part of the point I'm making/arguing against:

I'd argue that the author thinks otherwise:

Folks, this is exactly how the afterlife has always worked in D&D; I've maybe tweaked some specifics, but the gist is the same. Souls go to the afterlife and eventually dissolve into the substance of the Outer Plane to which they are remanded, end of story. You don't have to like it or think it's fair, but it's how it works—because like my story, D&D needs the afterlife to not be Awesome Happy Fun Times Forever or else there's no logical underpinning for why the heroes should want to save the world from destruction.

[Emphasis mine.]

With respect to the Giant, there is a reason to try to save the world even if the afterlife is "Awesome Happy Fun Times Forever":
The world is where new souls come from. Without new souls, the gods themselves cease to exist and the afterlife the new souls power eventually goes away.

Though I would argue the difference is mot meaningless, and that one cannot check up on ancestors after a time because they would have moved on further up the mountain (metaphorical mountain for those not in Celestia).

[understatement]

Well, again, the Sapphire Guard is one group in one particular part of the world, and they were massacring one specific group of goblins - the group that happened to contain the current high priest of the Dark One who even then had a plan to threaten the other gods with destruction through the use of the gates the Sapphire Guard was founded to protect in the first place.

I never got this reasoning -- that Redcloak's massacred village was the fault of the Bearer. The fall of Azure City is solely due to Redcloak and his army, not the Sapphire Guard; by that same strand of logic Redcloak's village lies squarely on the paladins, not the Bearer's presence.

It does not show that the Southern gods are "against all goblins". All it really shows is that, in this one particular instance the Southern gods were unwilling to punish their nominal servants.

War&XP mentions that the Sapphire Guard has had a long history of sending out crusades against goblin settlements, even since Soon's time. Why were these gods unwilling to punish their servants? These aren't normal citizens, they're the Lawful Good of lawful goods and their divine servants.

Redcloak is upset that a goblin could be killed without any repercussion if he enters a human city, just because he "has fangs and is green". But what will happen to a human if he enters a goblin village or hobgoblin city?
Again "I dinna' see how ye aren't already equal."

You know if the words "goblin" and "human" were replaced with real-life races then this would be describing a very severe problem that people often use in specific counterarguments?

There is a clear power disparity here. First, goblinoid cities are rare -- in fact, Gobbotopia may be the only one existent in the world. Second -- let's say that a group of goblins breaks into Roy's house, and kills Eric, Julia, and Sara in front of him. Roy, in revenge, hunts down the goblins and kills their village too. Who would punish Roy?

Absolutely no one.

But if a group of humans invaded a village, massacred everyone, and left, and Redcloak in revenge goes to their city and sacks it -- suddenly, the problem of divine punishment comes into play, where it never appeared in Roy's scenario.

In this case, punitive justice is unequal for the goblinoids and the demihumans. There is a lower threshold for killing 'monstrous' races than for killing demihumans. I don't think sorting out the punitive side of justice is what the story will resolve for, but it's a problem that has existed for decades.

[Jason]

I never got this reasoning -- that Redcloak's massacred village was the fault of the Bearer.

Well I didn't say it was the high priest's fault that his village got massacred, but it is a possible explanation for why the paladins were targeting that particular village.

The fact that the paladins weren't targeting just any random goblin village speaks against the idea that the attack was solely out of anti-goblin prejudice. There may well have been anti-goblin prejudice involved, but the high priest might also be a legitimate threat.

There is a clear power disparity here. First, goblinoid cities are rare -- in fact, Gobbotopia may be the only one existent in the world.

How do we know that goblinoid cities are in fact rare? Because Redcloak says they are?

The hobgoblins had a prospering city before Gobbotopia was founded on the ruins of Azure City - one that Redcloak had no knowledge of before he became their supreme leader.

But if a group of humans invaded a village, massacred everyone, and left, and Redcloak in revenge goes to their city and sacks it -- suddenly, the problem of divine punishment comes into play, where it never appeared in Roy's scenario.

How does divine punishment come into play? The scenario you describe is basically what happened in the main story line, and Redcloak has not received any divine punishment for his actions, either from his own god or from others.
The paladins were not divinely punished for destroying Redcloak's village.
Redcloak was not divinely punished for destroying Azure City.
Equality.

In this case, punitive justice is unequal for the goblinoids and the demihumans. There is a lower threshold for killing 'monstrous' races than for killing demihumans. I don't think sorting out the punitive side of justice is what the story will resolve for, but it's a problem that has existed for decades.

I'm not sure I see this lower threshold demonstrated in the comic. In fact, it could be said that Redcloak attacked Azure City to avenge the destruction of his village, destroying and enslaving a large human city in revenge for the destruction of a relatively small goblin village.

A goblin goes into a human city - he gets killed for being green.
A human goes into a goblin city - he gets killed for being not green.
Equality.
No, it's not what should happen in a perfect world, but the end result appears to be roughly equal. Saying "but the human city is much bigger than the goblin city" seems pretty irrelevant to the poor human or goblin who got killed.

[Squire Doodad]

How do we know that goblinoid cities are in fact rare? Because Redcloak says they are?

The hobgoblins had a prospering city before Gobbotopia was founded on the ruins of Azure City - one that Redcloak had no knowledge of before he became their supreme leader.

So you guys know:

There was the town the goblins in the DoD came from, the massive sprawling hobgoblin cityscape, and a nice little bugbear settlement in Monster Hollow.
Not to mention there's probably a group living by the Oracle's place given Hydra Head Burgers.
All three of them were going along swimmingly and were perfectly functional, which indicates there are probably many more.

They may not be as prosperous as Cliffport, but that's a different matter.

[understatement]

Well I didn't say it was the high priest's fault that his village got massacred, but it is a possible explanation for why the paladins were targeting that particular village.

The fact that the paladins weren't targeting just any random goblin village speaks against the idea that the attack was solely out of anti-goblin prejudice. There may well have been anti-goblin prejudice involved, but the high priest might also be a legitimate threat.

And the villagers afterward?

How do we know that goblinoid cities are in fact rare? Because Redcloak says they are?

The hobgoblins had a prospering city before Gobbotopia was founded on the ruins of Azure City - one that Redcloak had no knowledge of before he became their supreme leader.

Spoiler: GDGU

Show

The previous Supreme Leader states that their hobgoblin settlement is "one of the largest goblinoid settlements on the surface." Note that, despite the large military presence, the overall amount of hobgoblins is still low compared to a typical city (the settlement at most had 50000 residents, compared to Azure City's 500,000).

Judging by his statement, large surface goblinoid settlements functioning similarly to a demihuman city-state are rare, compared to other races' city-states and such.

How does divine punishment come into play? The scenario you describe is basically what happened in the main story line, and Redcloak has not received any divine punishment for his actions, either from his own god or from others.
The paladins were not divinely punished for destroying Redcloak's village.
Redcloak was not divinely punished for destroying Azure City.
Equality.

That really isn't the definition of equality.

Look at it this way: from Redcloak (and the Dark One's) POV, paladins came in, massacred his village, and left with no punishment. Not even by their own gods. Why would the Dark One punish Redcloak for sacking the city? It got rid of the paladins, it solidified his god's power, and both are Evil parallel actions and intents.

You might as well ask why Nerghal doesn't punish Malack, or Loki Hilgya, for killing innocents.

Why are gods supposed to punish other gods' followers? There was a whole book over gods not interfering with other gods' clerics.

I'm not sure I see this lower threshold demonstrated in the comic. In fact, it could be said that Redcloak attacked Azure City to avenge the destruction of his village, destroying and enslaving a large human city in revenge for the destruction of a relatively small goblin village.

A goblin goes into a human city - he gets killed for being green.
A human goes into a goblin city - he gets killed for being not green.
Equality.
No, it's not what should happen in a perfect world, but the end result appears to be roughly equal. Saying "but the human city is much bigger than the goblin city" seems pretty irrelevant to the poor human or goblin who got killed.

When I say the "human city is larger than the goblin city," it means that the human city can quickly muster enough resources to permanently ensure that the goblin settlement is not a threat again.

There is much less dissuading a human attacking a goblin village then a goblin attacking a human village. That's what I mean by "lower threshold."

[Jason]

And the villagers afterward?

That probably would have been anti-goblin prejudice, yes. But it may also have been intended to prevent the appointment of a new high priest in the area. Which obviously failed in this case.

Spoiler: GDGU

Show

The previous Supreme Leader states that their hobgoblin settlement is "one of the largest goblinoid settlements on the surface." Note that, despite the large military presence, the overall amount of hobgoblins is still low compared to a typical city (the settlement at most had 50000 residents, compared to Azure City's 500,000).

Judging by his statement, large surface goblinoid settlements functioning similarly to a demihuman city-state are rare, compared to other races' city-states and such.

"On the surface" would seem to be the most important part of his statement. If there are hundreds of vast undergound goblinoid metropolises in the world then it's not really true that goblinoid cities are rare.

As a side note, obviously I need to get Good Deeds Unpunished. Pity I waited until all the physical copies were sold out.

That really isn't the definition of equality.

Equal outcomes for equivalent actions is not equality?

Look at it this way: from Redcloak (and the Dark One's) POV, paladins came in, massacred his village, and left with no punishment. Not even by their own gods.

Which may indicate that the high priest of the Dark One was considered a legitimate threat that justified the massacre, at least in the judgement of the Southern gods. It is not incontrovertible evidence that the Southern gods always condone slaughtering goblins for no reason whatever.

When I say the "human city is larger than the goblin city," it means that the human city can quickly muster enough resources to permanently ensure that the goblin settlement is not a threat again.

There is much less dissuading a human attacking a goblin village then a goblin attacking a human village. That's what I mean by "lower threshold."

That assumes that the idea that human cities are always larger than goblin cities is correct. Again, do we know that for sure?

[understatement]

That probably would have been anti-goblin prejudice, yes. But it may also have been intended to prevent the appointment of a new high priest in the area. Which obviously failed in this case.

Probably?

If the villagers were humans, the paladins wouldn't have done the purge they did.

Here's the thing: at the time of the slaughter, the SG did not know about the cloak's powers, and believed the ritual power came from the goblin themself. Thus, they killed the goblin -- and by some leap of logic, decided it was perfectly okay to kill every other villager present, even if they didn't know about the Mantle (and they didn't). How is that not a war crime?

"On the surface" would seem to be the most important part of his statement. If there are hundreds of vast undergound goblinoid metropolises in the world then it's not really true that goblinoid cities are rare.

As a side note, obviously I need to get Good Deeds Unpunished. Pity I waited until all the physical copies were sold out.

Why would there be a hundred vast goblinoid metropolises underground? If the goblins were fine with being underground (again, that needs proof) why would they push onto the surface?

Equal outcomes for equivalent actions is not equality?

That's not the deal here. The context matters a lot, y'know.

Which may indicate that the high priest of the Dark One was considered a legitimate threat that justified the massacre, at least in the judgement of the Southern gods. It is not incontrovertible evidence that the Southern gods always condone slaughtering goblins for no reason whatever.

With this one specific event, which shows the Southern gods condone the village massacre, you're saying that there's no proof they always do, while I'm saying it's proof that they absolutely do, because there is no way this was the SG's first time in wiping out a village (see line about previous crusades), and yet they keep their badges and go home without any repercussions.

It's not that the 12 gods hate the goblins, it's just that they don't care. That's not better at all.

That assumes that the idea that human cities are always larger than goblin cities is correct. Again, do we know that for sure?

Since there hasn't been any goblin cities seen at all, I'd assume so. Even the largest settlement is still called that: a settlement.

A city gives legal authority, official trading systems, and more importantly, groups can't waltz up to it and attack a bunch of the residents and then expect to get away with it.

[137beth]

My dreams have been proven to provide "end time prophetic insights". No time to hold.

May I put this quote in my extended sig, oh great prophetess?

[Jason]

Probably?
Here's the thing: at the time of the slaughter, the SG did not know about the cloak's powers, and believed the ritual power came from the goblin themself. Thus, they killed the goblin -- and by some leap of logic, decided it was perfectly okay to kill every other villager present, even if they didn't know about the Mantle (and they didn't). How is that not a war crime?

I went and had a look at the book again:

Spoiler

Show

The paladins say that they're there because the goblins detect as evil and "Further, one among you threatens the very foundations of creation itself." The high priest acknowledges that they detect as evil and that the paladins came there to kill him specifically, "just as they did my master and her master before." When the paladins spot him they recognize the red cloak and attack him.

It's not clear whether the paladins know that another goblin will take the high priest's place or they're just killing all the goblins because they're evil, but they did know that the goblin high priest was a threat to the foundations of reality.

Why would there be a hundred vast goblinoid metropolises underground? If the goblins were fine with being underground (again, that needs proof) why would they push onto the surface?

Well what do you think he meant by the qualifier "on the surface"?
That would seem to me to imply that the hobgoblins do have more and possibly larger settlements underground.

[understatement]

I went and had a look at the book again:

Spoiler

Show

The paladins say that they're there because the goblins detect as evil and "Further, one among you threatens the very foundations of creation itself." The high priest acknowledges that they detect as evil and that the paladins came there to kill him specifically, "just as they did my master and her master before." When the paladins spot him they recognize the red cloak and attack him.

It's not clear whether the paladins know that another goblin will take the high priest's place or they're just killing all the goblins because they're evil, but they did know that the goblin high priest was a threat to the foundations of reality.

There's a pretty good explanation of the crimson mantle in GDGU. which

Spoiler: mild spoilers

Show

shows, yes, members of the Sapphire Guard very much have prejudices against goblinoids, civilians or not.

Also, I do not have the quote (I'll see if I can find it), but the SG did not scan the entire village for Evil. Also, if someone's registered as Evil but is doing absolutely nothing, killing them is at best morally questionable (think Roy's talk with the deva about Belkar).

Well what do you think he meant by the qualifier "on the surface"?
That would seem to me to imply that the hobgoblins do have more and possibly larger settlements underground.

Okay, yeah.

[Luna_Mayflower]

May I put this quote in my extended sig, oh great prophetess?

Absolutely.

[Lord Torath]

Hey, Luna, I found something for you: Enjoy!

He's not topless, but it'll do. Do you think his powerful turn undead (but not quite) means he has high Charisma? Perhaps not bad Strength too? I just really want him to have a six pack.

I confess, I'm kind of afraid of the results if I search for "Redcloak Topless" or even "Redcloak Topless Goblin".

[Metastachydium]

I confess, I'm kind of afraid of the results if I search for "Redcloak Topless" or even "Redcloak Topless Goblin".

It's a thing, you know. Also, it's a lot tamer than you'd think (spoiler alert: there is no sixpack; sorry, Luna).

[Fyraltari]

Hey, Luna, I found something for you: Enjoy!

Redcloak with hair looks weird.

[Jason]

Durkon really hit a nerve there with the "I haven't killed as many goblins as you have" bit there, didn't he?

[137beth]

Durkon really hit a nerve there with the "I haven't killed as many goblins as you have" bit there, didn't he?

And certainly fewer hobgoblins.

[dude123nice]

{scrubbed}