New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 17 of 17
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Closed Account
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Gender
    Male

    Default Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?

    We don't know what level he was at the time but we know he couldn't cast Heal ( level 6 spell ) and he can cast Break Enchantment ( level 5 spell ) so he's level 9 or 10.

    Could he somehow escape the cave with his spell selection and some ingenuity?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Jasdoif's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Oregon, USA

    Default Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    We don't know what level he was at the time but we know he couldn't cast Heal ( level 6 spell ) and he can cast Break Enchantment ( level 5 spell ) so he's level 9 or 10.

    Could he somehow escape the cave with his spell selection and some ingenuity?
    Probably not.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    I always assumed the cave was warded against (at least up to midlevel) teleportations, plane shifts, and stoneshapes.

    Lirian was epic, that trap down there was her "big project" to keep all kinds of spellcasting enemies trapped... so why not just "magically ward" it with spells from the book or a homebrew-version (she might even have help from Dorukan) and be done with it?
    This. The implicit assumption of several lines of Redcloak's dialogue is that he already tried everything he knows how to do. I just didn't show it all because I had limited space, and because I assumed that the reader would understand that if a smart, tactically-minded caster like Redcloak says, "X is the only way out," then he probably tried the easy ways first.

    After all, Lirian would have needed to ward her prison against people coming in to rescue them, too, which means locking it down to plane shifts and stone shapes, even if she thinks her prisoners are incapable of them. A restored Xykon, however, is more powerful than Lirian could ward against.
    Feytouched Banana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!

    The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Valencia, Spain
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?

    Of course he could. He only needed to keep casting "Summon Monster" and "Animate Dead" to farm XP until he reached Epic Level.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2020-08-05 at 11:56 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Closed Account
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?

    Well, there are other ways around, like slowly breaking enough stone to create a tunnel.
    Some ideas:

    1) Righteous Might ( increased weapon size and +4 size Strenght ) + Divine Power ( +6 enachement Strenght and higher BAB )
    It doesn't last much ( 8-7 rounds ) but it should allow to break the hardest blocks of stone

    2) Magic Weapon, Greater
    It lasts many hours and provides an excavating tool sturdy enough to break stone quite easily

    3) Bull's Strenght
    Lasts many hours and Redcloak can cast many of them. Could be useful to help the other goblins digging that tunnel.

    4) Stone Shape
    That looks very useful, if the stone itself isn't warded against direct magic

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Somewhere in Utah...
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Of course he could. He only needed to keep casting "Summon Monster" and "Animate Dead" to farm XP until he reached Epic Level.
    In 3.5 summoned monsters do not provide XP, and when they're killed they return to the plane they were summoned from, so they leave no remains to animate.
    I suppose Redcloak could have killed the goblins that were with them, reanimated them as undead, and then killed the undead for XP, but its questionable whether you can gain XP for destroying undead you created that are under your control.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Closed Account
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?

    But why not simply digging through the stone using spells and stone implements?

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Earth and/or not-Earth
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    In 3.5 summoned monsters do not provide XP, and when they're killed they return to the plane they were summoned from, so they leave no remains to animate.
    I suppose Redcloak could have killed the goblins that were with them, reanimated them as undead, and then killed the undead for XP, but its questionable whether you can gain XP for destroying undead you created that are under your control.
    It doesn't actually matter whether or not Redcloak could get XP from killing undead under his command, because he's too high level to get XP from goblin zombies or skeletons, which is the only kind of undead he could create.
    I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    We once again appreciate that which is the mighty banana ...
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    C-Dude's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?

    I guess Jasdoif's word of Giant is dogma against magical escapes, but I wonder if Redcloak couldn't have used Hydrogen elementals to gradually blast away at the rock (since they're highly explosive)... a mundane escape utilizing magical components Lirian would assume were unavailable. If the wards prevented such action, what Conradine suggested (bolstering physical strength and simply mining out) might have worked.

    Would have taken him longer, and would have cost him the arcane caster (since there was no way on hand to get rid of the virus).

    Based on Right Eye's comments (before that word of Giant) I figured that was the implication (and that it ran parallel to Vaarsuvius's temptation). It's not that there weren't other options, it's that Redcloak was blind to them. I might even argue that the audience's interpretation of the situation as a Faustian bargain is more important than the author's original intent. This is also important to note because Redcloak's current characterization (as of the latest comic) demonstrates his propensity to nova, which in some way contradicts what has been said about trying the easy things first.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Right Eye: "That was three years ago, I'm willing to admit I was wrong"


    Might be worth asking the Giant now "Looking back, do you think maybe Redcloak might have been ignoring some of his options in Lirian's prison--like the potential to make explosives from chemical elementals or bolster the digging strength of his men--because he was fixated on 'the plan'?".
    Thought I'd try drawing in Rich's style with a lizardfolk. He looks... concerned. Maybe 'cause he lost the top of his spear!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Forest Grove, Oregon
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?

    You say "contradicts his character", I say "demonstrates his growth as a character" (albeit "growth" in a negative direction). I think there's value to the idea that at earlier points in his career, Redcloak was never given easy, good choices, he always had bad ones, and that may have influenced his behavior. But now he's being given actual good choices and is still choosing the bad ones, and he is fully culpable for that. It demonstrates his continued progression into evil, rather than demonstrating that he's always been exactly the same.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2012

    Default Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?

    Isn't it possible to ward against summons, and wouldn't that be something she'd obviously ward against if so?

  12. - Top - End - #12

    Default Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?

    Yup. We know from Dorukan's epic spell that he had to make an exception for summons so he could get his booty calls.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    C-Dude's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Yup. We know from Dorukan's epic spell that he had to make an exception for summons so he could get his booty calls.
    But if it was Dorukan's epic Cloister spell, wouldn't Lirian's end have the same exception for summons? She would naturally assume no one in her prisons could ACTUALLY call for someone, comforted in the faith of the efficacy of her virus.


    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    You say "contradicts his character", I say "demonstrates his growth as a character" (albeit "growth" in a negative direction). I think there's value to the idea that at earlier points in his career, Redcloak was never given easy, good choices, he always had bad ones, and that may have influenced his behavior. But now he's being given actual good choices and is still choosing the bad ones, and he is fully culpable for that. It demonstrates his continued progression into evil, rather than demonstrating that he's always been exactly the same.
    Fair enough. It's hard to think of Redcloak being cornered in the 'making a lich' category, especially with Right Eye suggesting they cut their losses with the sorcerer, but I can accept the possibility that Redcloak's patience and scientific approaches eroded away over the many years he was 'lead henchman' under Xykon the Lich.

    Which is a bummer, because I think the memory of it would be a real bonding point between Redcloak and V, if the two ever had a conversation.
    Thought I'd try drawing in Rich's style with a lizardfolk. He looks... concerned. Maybe 'cause he lost the top of his spear!

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Orc in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?

    There's like, no way to answer this, cause we have very little idea even of what their prision's defenses actually were. So the answer is, idk? Maybe he could and just didn't cause he got tunnel visioned and ignored some obscure spell he could conjure up to get him out, or maybe not and the only way was to use an obscure ritual that she wasn't particularly familiar with considering she tried to use lightning on Xykon later on. There's just way too little evidence to really come up with any answer, the stone could be very well some magic stone that can't be transmuted via magic, it certainly would be one of the first bases to cover when creating a prision to spellcasters.
    Last edited by ebarde; 2020-08-05 at 07:35 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Metastachydium's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2020

    Default Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Dude View Post
    I guess Jasdoif's word of Giant is dogma against magical escapes, but I wonder if Redcloak couldn't have used Hydrogen elementals to gradually blast away at the rock (since they're highly explosive)... a mundane escape utilizing magical components Lirian would assume were unavailable. If the wards prevented such action, what Conradine suggested (bolstering physical strength and simply mining out) might have worked.
    I don't know. That hole isn't all that large. All their oxygen is provided by a few plants. All their food and water comes from those and mushrooms.
    Redcloak had passing grades in chemistry, you know. He is aware that explosions (especially in the plural) would eat up a lot of oxygen, while potentially producing toxic by-products (stuff gets burned, after all) and definitely producing quite a lot of fine dust (which would make the remaining air even less breathable), not to mention the shrapnel (the walls are made of solid stone, and with the right crystal structure it could fragment into hundreds of really*really sharp shards flying in every conceivable direction). Also, plants don't tend to like fire (I'd know), so that could have become an issue as well. I can see why he would not try that.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-08-06 at 06:39 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Synesthesy's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Italy, Turin

    Default Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?

    After saying that if there was a way to escape a smart guy like Redcloak would have thought about it, there are two points that are clear to me:

    1) Redcloak still saw Xykon as an important ally for the plans, and he thought that he was and would forever be the one in charge; in this Reddie did understimate the power and the will of Xykon. Redcloak may have thought that from that prison they should escape all or not escape at all.

    2) Xykon was the most powerfull asset they got. Lirian was an epic magic user friend (more then friend) to an epic wizard. I'm sure that while she built a natural prison with her virus and other "natural" defenses, she surely has thought some plan Bs: not all powerfull characters are magic users, after all: maybe a Roy + Hailey would have escaped from that prison with brute strength and some roguesce ability (the prison must have some kind of door to let prisoners in, after all). So surely there was more layer of defenses we do not know because they weren't important for the story. Lich Xykon was too strong for all of them, and that's enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    New suggestion: the MitD is an Italian Protean. Mamma mia!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Eyyy, I'm-a shiftin' da shapes and-a helping my amico Signore Stiffliano escape! Easyducio! Bada bing!

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Scotland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Yup. We know from Dorukan's epic spell that he had to make an exception for summons so he could get his booty calls.
    It's a commonplace of wizard lairs from Azurax Silverhawk to Rary the Traitor and so on that there are special areas where summoning etc work. Look at the 5e version of Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum (PHB p.262) - I don't have my 2E / 3E books to hand - and the caster determines the volume. A skilled caster could cast the spell multiple times to create holes for summoning etc.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •