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2020-08-05, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?
We don't know what level he was at the time but we know he couldn't cast Heal ( level 6 spell ) and he can cast Break Enchantment ( level 5 spell ) so he's level 9 or 10.
Could he somehow escape the cave with his spell selection and some ingenuity?
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2020-08-05, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Oregon, USA
Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2020-08-05, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
- Location
- Valencia, Spain
- Gender
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2020-08-05, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
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Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?
Well, there are other ways around, like slowly breaking enough stone to create a tunnel.
Some ideas:
1) Righteous Might ( increased weapon size and +4 size Strenght ) + Divine Power ( +6 enachement Strenght and higher BAB )
It doesn't last much ( 8-7 rounds ) but it should allow to break the hardest blocks of stone
2) Magic Weapon, Greater
It lasts many hours and provides an excavating tool sturdy enough to break stone quite easily
3) Bull's Strenght
Lasts many hours and Redcloak can cast many of them. Could be useful to help the other goblins digging that tunnel.
4) Stone Shape
That looks very useful, if the stone itself isn't warded against direct magic
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2020-08-05, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
- Location
- Somewhere in Utah...
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Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?
In 3.5 summoned monsters do not provide XP, and when they're killed they return to the plane they were summoned from, so they leave no remains to animate.
I suppose Redcloak could have killed the goblins that were with them, reanimated them as undead, and then killed the undead for XP, but its questionable whether you can gain XP for destroying undead you created that are under your control.
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2020-08-05, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?
But why not simply digging through the stone using spells and stone implements?
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2020-08-05, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
- Location
- Earth and/or not-Earth
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Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?
I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
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2020-08-05, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2015
- Location
- Texas
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Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-08-05, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?
I guess Jasdoif's word of Giant is dogma against magical escapes, but I wonder if Redcloak couldn't have used Hydrogen elementals to gradually blast away at the rock (since they're highly explosive)... a mundane escape utilizing magical components Lirian would assume were unavailable. If the wards prevented such action, what Conradine suggested (bolstering physical strength and simply mining out) might have worked.
Would have taken him longer, and would have cost him the arcane caster (since there was no way on hand to get rid of the virus).
Based on Right Eye's comments (before that word of Giant) I figured that was the implication (and that it ran parallel to Vaarsuvius's temptation). It's not that there weren't other options, it's that Redcloak was blind to them. I might even argue that the audience's interpretation of the situation as a Faustian bargain is more important than the author's original intent. This is also important to note because Redcloak's current characterization (as of the latest comic) demonstrates his propensity to nova, which in some way contradicts what has been said about trying the easy things first.
SpoilerRight Eye: "That was three years ago, I'm willing to admit I was wrong"
Might be worth asking the Giant now "Looking back, do you think maybe Redcloak might have been ignoring some of his options in Lirian's prison--like the potential to make explosives from chemical elementals or bolster the digging strength of his men--because he was fixated on 'the plan'?".Thought I'd try drawing in Rich's style with a lizardfolk. He looks... concerned. Maybe 'cause he lost the top of his spear!
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2020-08-05, 05:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
- Location
- Forest Grove, Oregon
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Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?
You say "contradicts his character", I say "demonstrates his growth as a character" (albeit "growth" in a negative direction). I think there's value to the idea that at earlier points in his career, Redcloak was never given easy, good choices, he always had bad ones, and that may have influenced his behavior. But now he's being given actual good choices and is still choosing the bad ones, and he is fully culpable for that. It demonstrates his continued progression into evil, rather than demonstrating that he's always been exactly the same.
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2020-08-05, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?
Isn't it possible to ward against summons, and wouldn't that be something she'd obviously ward against if so?
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2020-08-05, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?
Yup. We know from Dorukan's epic spell that he had to make an exception for summons so he could get his booty calls.
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2020-08-05, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Gender
Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?
But if it was Dorukan's epic Cloister spell, wouldn't Lirian's end have the same exception for summons? She would naturally assume no one in her prisons could ACTUALLY call for someone, comforted in the faith of the efficacy of her virus.
Fair enough. It's hard to think of Redcloak being cornered in the 'making a lich' category, especially with Right Eye suggesting they cut their losses with the sorcerer, but I can accept the possibility that Redcloak's patience and scientific approaches eroded away over the many years he was 'lead henchman' under Xykon the Lich.
Which is a bummer, because I think the memory of it would be a real bonding point between Redcloak and V, if the two ever had a conversation.Thought I'd try drawing in Rich's style with a lizardfolk. He looks... concerned. Maybe 'cause he lost the top of his spear!
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2020-08-05, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2020
Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?
There's like, no way to answer this, cause we have very little idea even of what their prision's defenses actually were. So the answer is, idk? Maybe he could and just didn't cause he got tunnel visioned and ignored some obscure spell he could conjure up to get him out, or maybe not and the only way was to use an obscure ritual that she wasn't particularly familiar with considering she tried to use lightning on Xykon later on. There's just way too little evidence to really come up with any answer, the stone could be very well some magic stone that can't be transmuted via magic, it certainly would be one of the first bases to cover when creating a prision to spellcasters.
Last edited by ebarde; 2020-08-05 at 07:35 PM.
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2020-08-06, 06:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2020
Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?
I don't know. That hole isn't all that large. All their oxygen is provided by a few plants. All their food and water comes from those and mushrooms.
Redcloak had passing grades in chemistry, you know. He is aware that explosions (especially in the plural) would eat up a lot of oxygen, while potentially producing toxic by-products (stuff gets burned, after all) and definitely producing quite a lot of fine dust (which would make the remaining air even less breathable), not to mention the shrapnel (the walls are made of solid stone, and with the right crystal structure it could fragment into hundreds of really*really sharp shards flying in every conceivable direction). Also, plants don't tend to like fire (I'd know), so that could have become an issue as well. I can see why he would not try that.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-08-06 at 06:39 AM.
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2020-08-06, 07:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
- Location
- Italy, Turin
Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?
After saying that if there was a way to escape a smart guy like Redcloak would have thought about it, there are two points that are clear to me:
1) Redcloak still saw Xykon as an important ally for the plans, and he thought that he was and would forever be the one in charge; in this Reddie did understimate the power and the will of Xykon. Redcloak may have thought that from that prison they should escape all or not escape at all.
2) Xykon was the most powerfull asset they got. Lirian was an epic magic user friend (more then friend) to an epic wizard. I'm sure that while she built a natural prison with her virus and other "natural" defenses, she surely has thought some plan Bs: not all powerfull characters are magic users, after all: maybe a Roy + Hailey would have escaped from that prison with brute strength and some roguesce ability (the prison must have some kind of door to let prisoners in, after all). So surely there was more layer of defenses we do not know because they weren't important for the story. Lich Xykon was too strong for all of them, and that's enough.
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2020-08-07, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2012
- Location
- Scotland
- Gender
Re: Could Redcloak free himself from the druid's cave-prison without Xykon's help?
It's a commonplace of wizard lairs from Azurax Silverhawk to Rary the Traitor and so on that there are special areas where summoning etc work. Look at the 5e version of Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum (PHB p.262) - I don't have my 2E / 3E books to hand - and the caster determines the volume. A skilled caster could cast the spell multiple times to create holes for summoning etc.