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2020-08-05, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
I have a Hunter Ranger 5/War Cleric X that uses Hunter's mark and War Priest alot. I believe this gives me 3 longbow attacks since War Priest allows a bonus attack after an attack. This does not seem to be like TWF or Martial Arts abilities where you must use light or unarmed attack weapons.
I would think adding an attack for a dip without going deep into warrior would be more common. Yes it is a limited resource but still viable I think.
Planning on Ranger 5 / Cleric 15 since adding in divine strike works as well. I'm afraid though that I will find that upcasting Spiritual Weapon will be a better use of BA, but War Priest and spell slots use different resources to push that much farther.
Do War Clerics even attack in the late game?
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2020-08-05, 05:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
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2020-08-05, 05:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
The trouble with War Cleric is that the scaling is quite awkward, leading it to shift roles as it levels up and generally having a descending power curve. It's not weak (no Clerics are), but it's definitely weird and doesn't quite do what a lot of people wish it did.
Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
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2020-08-05, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
It's a consistent problem in 5e, where they make you choose between Attacking OR Cast a Spell. It's the same reason Bladesingers work better off of the front line, because eventually you have to make a choice between the two playstyles instead of being allowed in the middle.
Gish classes need some hybrid features.
For example, cast a Cleric spell with a spell slot, make a weapon attack as a Bonus Action. Spend a spell slot when an ally attacks or is attacked to grant them a bonus to their AC, weapon damage and attack rolls equal to the spell slot spent until the start of your next turn.
Stuff like that.
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2020-08-05, 07:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
I like War domain. All the first and second level domain spells are castable with a bonus action, which is makes them a powerhouse even before they pick up Spirit Guardians. Plus they get the dreaded Spiritual Weapon + Spirit Guardians first-round combo as domain spells, freeing you up to tailor your regular prepared slots as desired
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2020-08-05, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
War Domain isn't terrible with Eldritch Knight. It goes well with Shadow Blade. You can have up to three regular 5d8+Dex attacks (EK 11), plus a bonus 5d8+Dex from War (Wis times per long rest), with the option to turn a couple of misses per short rest into hits, plus an extra 1d8 on your first hit per round. (They don't even have to be YOUR misses.)
It's arguably competitive with straight EK 20, and you also get access to some decent spells, and more spell slots for Shield. I'd rather play one of those than a straight Cleric, that's for sure, although Divine Soul is also competitive with Cleric.
If I were going to play a classical warrior-priest though, Warcaster Fighter + War Cleric would be my goto, because blasting people with arcane energy just feels less thematic than GWM-smiting them with a sledgehammer while protecting other party members with Warding Bond, Bless, Command, Revivify, etc. In this context the limited uses per day of War Priest bonus attacks is less painful because it's partly just kind of a stopgap until you get more Fighter levels: it lets you sort of fake being a Fighter 11 when you're still actually only a Fighter 5/War Priest 2.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-08-05 at 07:14 PM.
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2020-08-05, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
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2020-08-05, 07:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
Pick your battles. Sometimes engaging in weapon attacks is the way to go. Other times you need to play spellcaster from afar. The strength is in the versatility of options. You don't need to use everything you have together all the time every time. You're not losing anything if you don't use a particular class ability in a combat.
If there's something you're never using that's an issue. It could be the class design, campaign circumstances, your personal comfort modus operandi, or a combination. That you examine and come to your own conclusion.
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2020-08-05, 08:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
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2020-08-05, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
As a dip? Sure, they're a good choice--heavy armor, martial weapons, good domain spells, and if you have a decent Wisdom score War Priest is a nice little extra. As a straight Cleric? As LudicSavant and Man_Over_Game pointed out, it doesn't do enough to make weapon attacks worth using as spells get stronger and stronger. The Bladesinger at least gets an extra attack and Int-to-damage, and has access to much better weapon-combat-oriented buffs, but neither really stack up what high-level spells can do.
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2020-08-05, 10:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
War Domain always strikes me as the subclass you'd pick for long adventuring day style games. It's the choice you take when you need to stretch your spell slots out over a lot of encounters, or need a solid plan to fall back on when you eventually run out of spells.
Spells are the stronger pick, so any type of game where your rests are often enough to keep the tank full will make those melee related features into dead levels, as you'll never need to rely on them.
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2020-08-05, 11:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-06, 12:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
Bonus proficiencies and War Priest are both level 1, and while War Priest is a limited use, any turn you are using it is a turn spent not using spell slots. Yes you are not hitting extra hard till later on in levels, but the general flavour of the class is around giving you things to do in melee without needing to use spell slots, thus stretch out out their availability over a greater number of rounds, and having something to fall back onto when you do run out.
Battles of attrition are not about using your best ability every round, it's about having some to do for more rounds that your opponent.
Also I agree Death Clerics are pretty neat.
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2020-08-06, 12:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
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2020-08-06, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-06, 12:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
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2020-08-06, 12:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
One of my players is actually running Fighter/War Priest right now at Battlemaster 3/War Cleric 1 and he's been very satisfied with being able to Bless the party and Healing Word in addition to his Battlemaster stuff. As a S&B Shield Master, having the option of doing damage with his bonus action is occasionally also nice. Then he's going Battlemaster 5, then probably more War Cleric. Probably capping out at Fighter 11/War Cleric 9 since that gives him the Holy Weapon option as a capstone of sorts (and all the spells you get are just nice and you don't have any problems with the Concentration or any such due to the Fighter shell).
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2020-08-06, 03:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
I wouldn't say that this is a generalized problem for either Wizards or Clerics. For example, an Arcana Cleric is well positioned to actually hit people in the face on the front lines throughout their entire career, without skipping a beat on spellcasting. Simply by existing in melee range with the Warcaster feat they exert a strong pressure game in a way that War Clerics... don't really.
I'm talking about the War Cleric specifically. At least as a single classed one, their melee attacks don't scale much beyond where they were at in tier 1, and if anything they start getting encouraged more to spend their Channel Divinity on other people instead of themselves. They don't really have a good reason to invest in Strength/Dexterity over Wisdom, and it's decently expensive for them to pick up Shillelagh + Booming Blade (unlike for a Nature or Arcana Cleric). Divine Strike does absolutely nothing for your OAs (very unlike Potent Spellcasting). And they don't get any especially standout spell list additions specifically for the purpose of melee -- things like Crusader's Mantle are put to better use boosting your undead and teammates.
The end result is that -- at least in my experience thus far -- War Clerics kind of start out personally smashing faces on the front lines for Hextor, then tend to get a promotion to an officer role, switching Rogue misses to hit or giving swarm parties an early Crusader's Mantle.
Multiclass War Clerics might be another story.Last edited by LudicSavant; 2020-08-06 at 03:57 AM.
Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
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2020-08-06, 06:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
The reason Arcana Clerics don't have the same problem is because they never have to make that choice. They don't actually ever take the Attack Action, and instead just Cast A Spell like any other Cleric but do it in a way that makes an Attack.
That's why the Arcana Cleric works, where the Bladesinger does not. You don't have to use all of your features all of the time (an Arcana Cleric isn't casting Cantrips every turn), you just have to have a reason to use every one of your features. The Bladesinger doesn't have that (in reference to its Extra Attack feature).
I do think that hybrid features are a bit better of a design choice than the Cleric bonus to weapon damage, though, as it encourages multiclassing with martial classes (which means you still have that divide that prevents stuff like Ranger/Cleric). For real hybrids to exist, we cannot be forced to choose between the Attack or Cast A Spell actions, but instead should have ways of having one benefit the other. The Cleric bonus to weapon damage is still a step in the right direction, but it's really only because SCAG cantrips are a thing. It doesn't bridge that divide (between the Attack or CaS actions), but instead just makes one of the two accomplish both (so it eliminates the problem of choosing by leaving only one option). It doesn't actually do anything for those who actually want to Attack (I.E. any character with Extra Attack).
I'm actually really disappointed in the Eldritch Knight for this very reason. It has a lot of means of bridging the gap, but they're either implemented poorly (most EK spells are cast when you're not in the thick of battle, or as a Reaction, or are too expensive to cast as they rely on Intelligence that you don't have, or just directly compete with the basic Attack Action Fighters excel at), or are implemented far too late for multiclassing to have much benefit. So in combat it ends up functioning as a Fighter with some spot defense powers or a temporary buff they cast on themselves on the first round of combat, which is basically describing a Samurai with a bunch of extra words.Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2020-08-06 at 10:11 AM.
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2020-08-06, 06:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
I am not a fan of pure war cleric,though mainly from an RP prespective. I guess I don't feel the need to represent agod of war; just not my thing most of the time. It irks me also that your domain gives you martial buffs, but if you wanted to be martial focussed you would be another class. I feel I can get better mechanicalmatch-ups for a war priest from a paladin than I do the war cleric.
Also, as others noted, once you get to even moderately high levels you still suck at doing anything martial.
On the other hand, I love war cleric as a dip. Strength based rogue or ranger, a dip on another caster, even on a monk... that first level gives you a lot.
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2020-08-06, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
I never see mention of their channel divinity in discussions like this, and it's their best class feature. Twice per rest, you can pretty much just say "Screw the die roll; I hit". Starting at sixth level, you can say that for any party member. Touch spell? It hits. Mega-dice assassination? It hits. Great weapon master paladin with a smite spell and a divine smite? It hits. And it's even declared after you see the roll, so if the original roll happened to be good, you don't need to waste it (as long as you have a rough idea of your target's AC).
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2020-08-06, 10:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
Each of those things come with a cost.
Make an Attack? Now you're not casting a Cleric spell.
GWM? Now you're grabbing a feat on a MAD build.
Sneak Attack? So are you going Dexterity for weaker damage or not? (not to mention that melee sneak attacks are much harder without allies or Advantage to give them to you)
Yes, you can cast it on your allies who made those investments instead of you, but either you're building yourself as an Attacker (meaning level 6+ has less value), or you're building yourself as primarily a caster for your team (meaning 1-5 has less value).
Lastly, it'd only be used when someone misses, which only happens roughly 30% of the time. Best-case scenario, you're using it on a Rogue that was about to miss, and the same thing could have been accomplished easier as an Order Cleric, who would have granted a nearly nonconditional extra attack without the need for the ally to roll low in order to gain value.Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2020-08-06 at 10:40 AM.
5th Edition Homebrewery
Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
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2020-08-06, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
Best-case scenario is you're using it on a humongous attack like Shadow Blade + Booming Blade + Sneak Attack for 11d8+10d6+5 (89.5) on a mobile combatant who can the opponent to trigger Booming Blade or lose an action, and this way you don't cost your ally their reaction like an Order Cleric would, so that reaction is still available for defensive use and/or making an opportunity attack against a different target. An Order Cleric wouldn't get the Booming Blade damage, would require you to spend a spell slot (most likely Healing Word, targeting an ally who might not even need a Healing Word), and costs the ally their reaction.
Another good-case-but-not-the-best-case scenario is just using it on a GWM or Sharpshooter attack, where misses happen quite frequently and War God's blessing is basically just +20ish damage, twice per short rest. +20ish is not nearly as good as +89 but it's easier to get, and it's still a nice, party-friendly nova damage boost for when you're fighting those vampires and such, and +120 HP per day is competitive with the value that comes from Divine Smite, and will be used in similar scenarios (against glass cannons and "boss" monsters).
Also, some people like myself really, really hate the flavor ofMind Control DomainOrder Domain. Order is not mental domination, it's seeking synergy and eliminating tragedies of the commons.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-08-06 at 12:15 PM.
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2020-08-06, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
Well, yes, but that's still a pretty big stretch. I'm not seeing too many Rogues land Sneak Attacks due to OA's, or be in melee range of a target out of their turn, or be able to afford Shadow Blade in a way that'd be more efficient than giving it to someone else (like a Fighter), and still be in a position for Sneak Attack.
You make a valid point on the Reactions and healing, though. I didn't mean to say that the Order Cleric is strictly better, I just think it's much easier to build around for that playstyle than the War Cleric's Channel Divinity buff that they get at level 6.Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2020-08-06 at 12:14 PM.
5th Edition Homebrewery
Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
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2020-08-06, 12:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
Even if you're just using it to make Sharpshooter/Great Weapon Master attacks hit, that's still +20ish damage twice per short rest (vs. +89.5 twice per short rest in the best-ish case with Booming Blade + Sneak Attack), and +120ish HP per day is definitely respectable. It's comparable to the value you get out of Paladin smites and will be used in similar scenarios: against glass cannon monsters and important commanders, liches, etc., but unlike the Paladin smites it doesn't cost spell slots.
I guess you're talking about "build a playstyle around" and I'm talking about "hey, free bonus damage!" Different levels of investment for different results. :) I'm imagining a Dexy Fighter 11/War Cleric 9 Sharpshooter who takes War Cleric mostly just for the spell slots (to fuel Shield and Shadow Blade) and to add one more healer to the group--the competition here is stuff like pure Fighter 20, or Fighter 11/Swashbuckler 9 for more damage, or Fighter 11/Shepherd Druid 9 for meatshields, or Fighter 11/Forge Cleric 9 for more tanking. In this context the "free" damage from Channel Divinity is pretty relevant and the limited number of bonus action attacks from War Priest also isn't terrible, since you won't be using Shadow Blade often anyway.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-08-06 at 01:58 PM.
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2020-08-06, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
I feel that the decision to make Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon good (and balance the Cleric's combat abilities in response to that) pretty much put a nail in the coffin for a previous-edition-emulating warrior cleric like I think a lot of people would have liked. You can do it, and war cleric is probably the way you would do it. Still, a Celestial bladelock, Divine Soul Sorcadin, or heck Paladin probably emulate that role better.
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2020-08-06, 07:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
Channel Divinity refreshes on a Short Rest. So you are actually using it twice a day, and four times per day at 6th.
Honestly, the domain feels completely meh to me. As others have said, if fighting is my thing then Fighter or Paladin feels more natural. And, perhaps it is lack of imagination on my part, but it does not feel like War(!) Cleric unless you get in there and fight. (You could be a War Cleric who plays support, but other domains play support just as well or better.)
Furthermore, it simply is not much better at melee than a Tempest Cleric. Tempest actually directly addresses the big tactical weakness of fighting types by giving some useful AoEs starting from low level. A Tempest Cleric has strengths that make it, under certain non-rare scenarios, a better kind of frontliner.
As for Domain spells, Divine Favor and Crusader's Mantle are not better than Bless, except under peculiar circumstances. Stoneskin and Hold Monster are nice, but the lower level domain spells are not adding anything special.Last edited by Snails; 2020-08-06 at 07:05 PM.
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2020-08-06, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
I personally love the War Domain. Its the domain that makes me feel most like what I envision when I think of a cleric. A caster in heavy armor with a weapon that is primarily going to use spells, but can whack something when they need to and not feel bad about it. While the way they play, ideally, does shift a bit as you level up, I really love how they are the kind of caster that can actually stand up on the front lines and feel good about it. Most other characters that can survive the front lines are either martials that are not casting many spells, or are casters that, even if they can survive the front lines, don't actually want to be there.
They have ideal domain spells for their role, can use melee attacks if they need to, and have the incredibly Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians spells always prepared. But perhaps my favorite thing is their channel divinities. Saying something hits is awesome. And that's pretty much what these are. +10 is almost always going to guarantee a hit, and that is amazing. While its not going to ever be something that, on paper, looks super powerful, in actual combat, there are tons of situations where it can seem like a single hit can change the flow of battle. A War Cleric can guarantee those hits. And of course, it doesn't just work on weapon attacks, so if someone is throwing out an attack spell, you can use it to guarantee the slot is not wasted.
Ultimately, if you are an optimizer, no, War Cleric is probably not going to be your best choice. But as a class, it just feels so good to play, regardless of how it stacks up in terms of power.
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2020-08-06, 10:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
At 6th level you can give anyone +10 to hit... twice a short rest
Guided strike is really good. Not 1d10.
But +10.
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2020-08-07, 02:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain
I played a War Cleric from 1 to 5 and by 5th level I was already feeling the tension that people are describing between wanting to fight with my weapon but discovering that was nearly always pointless in comparison to casting a spell.
These days if I wanted to play a war priest I would probably just go directly to Paladin.