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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard89 View Post
    And what is wrong with it being better than Divine Strike? That's the point. If you want War to be BETTER cleric in front line and BETTER martial cleric than other clerics then of course you want them to have BETTER thing than Divine Strike since half domain get Divine Strike so there is nothing special in it. Extra Attack is that - a better martial feature. And of course it should not be comparable because then what would be the point?

    War Cleric sucks as martial domain because he has nothing better martial-wise than other domains. Extra Attack makes them better at that and that's the point.
    Methinks the challenge is to not have a full caster completely overshadow the half and no casters. Clerics, especially war clerics, have way better proficiencies and tank spells than other casters with subclasses getting Extra Attack..

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    I agree. Most complaints I hear about the War Cleric are about how clunky it feels, not about how weak it is. The problem is that there are several, very distinct ways of playing the War Cleric, and it doesn't always do what people were hoping/expecting it to do. Some see it as a combat-focused support, and others see it as an armored Barbarian that learned spellcasting. Those are somewhat mutually exclusive, as you can't generally utilize your Attacks AND your Cast a Spell Actions, despite the fact that you generally have to invest towards those from the get-go (through feats, stats, etc).

    So you have to pick Attacker stats/feats, yet it makes a mediocre Attacker.
    OR
    You have to pick Caster stats/feats, yet it makes a mediocre Caster.

    Despite the fact that it does both moderately fine, it never really capitalizes on the player's investments due to dividing its features both ways (while a Fighter would put 100% of its features towards improving your GWM feat), and so it's the player that feels mediocre, not the class.

    Same thing in the Hexblade in that regard: You choose to become a mediocre caster for the option to become a mediocre martial, and it feels lackluster compared to a specialist that stuck to one. The reason the Hexblade doesn't have this issue to the same level is because the Hexblade has more hybrid features that support blending both aspects (smite spells, self-buffs, Eldritch Smite) while the War Cleric has a lot less.
    I have to disagree. The Hexblade is neither a mediocre caster nor a mediocre martial. It's a great martial and a good caster, especially from tier 3 and onwards.

    My suggestion for the easiest fix: allow War Priest to be used when making weapon attacks OR casting spells. Maybe give them a SCAG-trip. On level 8 or 11, make the war priest ability recharge on a short rest. Maybe also: on 14 or 17, it can always be used.

    ... Screw the Berserker as it is.
    I might attack your points aggressively: nothing personal. If I call out a fallacy in your argumentation, it doesn't mean I think you are arguing in bad faith. I invite you to call out if I somehow fail to live by the Twelve Virtues of Rationality.

    My favourite D&D session had 3 dice rolls. I'm currently curious to any system that has a higher amount of choices in and out of combat than 5e from the beginning of the game; especially for non-spellcasters. Please PM any recommendations.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Err, how does focusing on Wis make sense if your goal is to be a better martial Cleric? Just to boost your bonus attacks from 3 to 5?
    You're still a Cleric, you'll probably use your Spirit Guardians and company which have saves so you want Wisdom. If you can get Wis to hit and damage as well, you get by with 1 ASI less than if you try to buff Str and Wis separately (or accept 16 attack stat; granted, with Belt of GS you can circumvent this issue and indeed outperform Shillelagh builds).
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    If you remove these cantrips from your game, martial Clerics will just be even weaker and the optimal martial Cleric will be casting Toll the Dead or Sacred Flame with Warcaster instead. The issue is the lack of scaling in Cleric martial ability (Divine Strike alone doesn't suffice if you want your melee attacks to mean something), not in the bandaid scaling available.
    So if the cleric class becomes a tiny amount weaker it's a problem? Are you suggestign that the cleric is in the bottom half of classes and that is the cleric lost a bit of power it would actually increase the average power gap between all classes? And are you factoring in that it closes options for other classes as well?

    I also don't get why the War Cleric needs to have a better at-will option than the arcana cleric. War cleric is focussed (relatively) on the attack action, arcana cleric focusses of casting a spell as an action. The comparison is the arcana cleric casting a spell - they get extra arcane cantrip and a boost to it. Why should war cleric's class features allow it to surpass the impact from another subclasses class features? It isn't like the arcana cleric is better at the attack action; its that the arcana cleric casting their spell is better than the war cleric attacking. The war cleric gets a lot of other great abilities; there is no reason why it should expect to be better at this as well. I can see a claim that a war cleric should be better at doing attack damage than others, it doesn not follow that its weapon damage should be better than a spell focussed clerics spell daamge (I mean it might be the case that it is appropriate, but it doesn't follow from the premise).


    I mean I get that some people want to play a devout spellcaster who is a melee powerhouse; it isn't unreasonable. Such an idea is a great character. The game supports this pretty well with the Paladin which sacrifices some spellcasting for more potent martial abilities than clerics have. Asking for the potent martial abilities but without a corresponding drop in spellcasting leaves me unconvinced as to how balanced it would be.

    At best you could cherry pick only the most powerful classes in the game, and only thebest options therin and say "Oh look, if we do this it only looks really good rather than utterly unreasonable", but that would not reflect the reality of the increased gap between the other classes with two attacks and the cleric. Does it help closethe gap between the barbarian and the cleric? Between the fighter and the cleric? The ranger? The monk? If you opted to play a character with two attacks and want to pick what else you get, pretty much everything is overshadowed by a class with all the proficiencies in weapons and armour, access to the cleric spell list, the most spells avaialble of any caster class and the ability to swap them in and out and castthem as rituals, martial focussed short rest resources, yet another ability that grants yet more attacks... I mean, at what point do you just pretend that the fighter class just doesn't exist any more? How much do you have to value one round per short rest when you can action surge to compensate for this?

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    So if the cleric class becomes a tiny amount weaker it's a problem? Are you suggestign that the cleric is in the bottom half of classes and that is the cleric lost a bit of power it would actually increase the average power gap between all classes? And are you factoring in that it closes options for other classes as well?
    Again, this doesn't meaningfully change the power of Cleric itself, just makes the different subclasses a bit more even.
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  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Again, this doesn't meaningfully change the power of Cleric itself, just makes the different subclasses a bit more even.
    Are we still talking about adding an extra attcack to the War Cleric instead of divine strike? I am a bit confused as you used the phrase "a bit more even".

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    Are we still talking about adding an extra attcack to the War Cleric instead of divine strike? I am a bit confused as you used the phrase "a bit more even".
    Yes. I posit it would do nothing but make mundane attack action a bit more lucrative to a War Cleric, thus increasing the variety of different Cleric builds (cantrips and basic weapon attacks both being competitive options in some cases) without really altering their overall power level.
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Yes. I posit it would do nothing but make mundane attack action a bit more lucrative to a War Cleric, thus increasing the variety of different Cleric builds (cantrips and basic weapon attacks both being competitive options in some cases) without really altering their overall power level.
    I get how you can improve something and not change its power level. Take something that is so bad it doesn't happen and improve it, but so it is still so bad it doesn't happen.

    No one uses it it either case so it remains unchanged. If you improve the attack action to such an extent that you see it being used more than other options then clearly you have changed the power level. The average power of an action being taken has gone up.

    Now if you want to make something more common relative to some other option but not make the other option worse then you also need to decrease the power of the other option. That is what I am still waiting for. What are you going to take away to preserve balance?

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    I get how you can improve something and not change its power level. Take something that is so bad it doesn't happen and improve it, but so it is still so bad it doesn't happen.

    No one uses it it either case so it remains unchanged. If you improve the attack action to such an extent that you see it being used more than other options then clearly you have changed the power level. The average power of an action being taken has gone up.

    Now if you want to make something more common relative to some other option but not make the other option worse then you also need to decrease the power of the other option. That is what I am still waiting for. What are you going to take away to preserve balance?
    This is only necessary if the options are initially balanced. If they are not, you can add to one to make them more even. War Cleric with Extra Attack would not meaningfully outperform Arcana or Forge or Order or Grave or Tempest or whatever.

    It simply has a different, but not necessary a better or worse set of options. It uses Attack + Spiritual Weapon/War Priest instead of Cantrip + Spiritual Weapon. Different means, different restrictions, approximately same outcome.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2020-08-11 at 08:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    This is only necessary if the options are initially balanced. If they are not, you can add to one to make them more even. War Cleric with Extra Attack would not meaningfully outperform Arcana or Forge or Order or Grave or Tempest or whatever.

    It simply has a different, but not necessary a better or worse set of options. It uses Attack + Spiritual Weapon/War Priest instead of Cantrip + Spiritual Weapon. Different means, different restrictions, approximately same outcome.
    So what makes you think cleric is such a weak class that any of its sub-classes need a boost? At what levels does the cleric need a boost and are your proposed changes having an impact at those levels?

    Then within the cleric, whay to you think War is a weak subclass - you have explained why it doesn't do what you want just fine, but not how the sum total of its abilities and interactions together make it weak. Imean, if you cast spells instead of attacking it doesn't mean the class is weak - it just means spells are the better option.

  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    So what makes you think cleric is such a weak class that any of its sub-classes need a boost? At what levels does the cleric need a boost and are your proposed changes having an impact at those levels?

    Then within the cleric, whay to you think War is a weak subclass - you have explained why it doesn't do what you want just fine, but not how the sum total of its abilities and interactions together make it weak. Imean, if you cast spells instead of attacking it doesn't mean the class is weak - it just means spells are the better option.
    Cleric isn't weak, War is just a bit weaker than the alternatives and most importantly, doesn't really live up to its fantasy (War Priest is pretty bad on high levels due to how contested Bonus Actions are, building for e.g. GWM as a Cleric is just pretty silly since you can't really make competitive use of it with a single attack and it has a pretty poor domain spell list and unimpressive high level ability). Boosting War doesn't change the power level of Cleric as a class as many other subclasses are already on the level War with Extra Attack would be at, but it does make War a bit better of a choice in the long run and more importantly, a different one with slightly different options expanding the pallet of different Clerics.

    Again, you can never fix Cleric power level by altering an individual subclass. Subclasses aren't the reason Clerics are a bit overpowered. This shouldn't preclude improving subpar and potentially nerfing overpowered subclasses. Overpowered classes have to be hit as classes: subclass alteration is the wrong tool to that end so we should, nay must ignore overall power level of Cleric while figuring out the appropriate power level of subclasses and instead focus on internal balancing. If there's something to say about Cleric's overall power level, that needs to be dealt with on a class level.


    Overall, giving War Extra Attack would just make one more different Cleric without changing power level pretty much anywhere. If attacking is weaker than spells, then giving classes decent attacking power is pretty safe since that still doesn't place them in the top tier of the subclass/class options and thus the overall power level of the game remains unchanged while you have added something different and fun for players to tinker with.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2020-08-11 at 09:13 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #132

    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Overall, giving War Extra Attack would just make one more different Cleric without changing power level pretty much anywhere. If attacking is weaker than spells, then giving classes decent attacking power is pretty safe since that still doesn't place them in the top tier of the subclass/class options and thus the overall power level of the game remains unchanged while you have added something different and fun for players to tinker with.
    I don't really agree that it would be a good change. Giving Extra Attack to War Domain would make all of the other weapon-using clerics (like Forge) look anemic, and steps on the toes of the Paladin and to a lesser extent Valor Bard and Bladesinger (since War Cleric has a better AC and is a full caster too).

  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I don't really agree that it would be a good change. Giving Extra Attack to War Domain would make all of the other weapon-using clerics (like Forge) look anemic, and steps on the toes of the Paladin and to a lesser extent Valor Bard and Bladesinger (since War Cleric has a better AC and is a full caster too).
    Hmm, I feel Forge would be fine with its shtick of having really high defensive values (and potential to use SCAGtrips for comparable if not equivalent damage), Tempest with its Divine Strike + BB maximization, etc. But I can see why you might feel that way. However, I certainly feel that Pally doesn't mind (their thing is Smite anyways; the Extra Attack is just an extra chance at Smiting most of the time - and they have their auras and what-not that's different enough from what a Cleric is doing that I don't think it matters too much), and Bladesinger and Valor/Swords Bards both have better (or at the very least, quite different; but ultimately I'd argue a fair bit stronger overall) spell lists so they are different enough that I don't think it would make much of a difference in that sense.

    The class that most suffers would probably be the Barbarian but they have their shtick of being nearly unkillable and all their subclass stuff going on. Overall, I think Cleric with Extra Attack would actually be safe for the very reason that it doesn't really overpowered the other Cleric subclasses (Extra Attack is better than Divine Strike but vs. Divine Strike + SCAGtrip it's actually pretty close; same with Extra Attack vs. Toll the Dead - you need a fair bit of Str or sources of bonus damage for Extra Attack to come out ahead on Tier 3). GWM is of course the big one but given how big of an investment it is (Cleric is already feat-starved and it costs a feat plus some reliable means of generating advantage, which is much harder for Clerics than with trickier casters able to access Shadow Blade or Greater Invisibility or familiars or whatever), I don't think that's really a problem.
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  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Cleric isn't weak, War is just a bit weaker than the alternatives and most importantly, doesn't really live up to its fantasy (War Priest is pretty bad on high levels due to how contested Bonus Actions are, building for e.g. GWM as a Cleric is just pretty silly since you can't really make competitive use of it with a single attack and it has a pretty poor domain spell list and unimpressive high level ability). Boosting War doesn't change the power level of Cleric as a class as many other subclasses are already on the level War with Extra Attack would be at, but it does make War a bit better of a choice in the long run and more importantly, a different one with slightly different options expanding the pallet of different Clerics.

    Again, you can never fix Cleric power level by altering an individual subclass. Subclasses aren't the reason Clerics are a bit overpowered. This shouldn't preclude improving subpar and potentially nerfing overpowered subclasses. Overpowered classes have to be hit as classes: subclass alteration is the wrong tool to that end so we should, nay must ignore overall power level of Cleric while figuring out the appropriate power level of subclasses and instead focus on internal balancing. If there's something to say about Cleric's overall power level, that needs to be dealt with on a class level.


    Overall, giving War Extra Attack would just make one more different Cleric without changing power level pretty much anywhere. If attacking is weaker than spells, then giving classes decent attacking power is pretty safe since that still doesn't place them in the top tier of the subclass/class options and thus the overall power level of the game remains unchanged while you have added something different and fun for players to tinker with.
    The key word here is balance. What is on the other side ofthat balance? I would suggestthatitis one character being balanced against others.

    Now if you play a party of all clerics then your balanceisagainst otherclerices and you are right, the germane metric is acomparisonwith other subclasses. On the other hand ifyou are playing alongside other classes, it is the relative power of your character against those other classes that matters.

    So I guess it comes down to if you are balancing for a single class game or not. Will you be allowing other classes at your table other than cleric?


    That said, giving an extra attack is a big boost. I amnot sure why you are pretending it isn't. Double the chances to break concentration, double the modifiers from magic weapons, double the buffs from spells like divine favour, better able to divide damage up amongst enemies and avoid overkill, ability to shove someone down and still have an attack... oh yeah and just more raw damage than an single attack with divine strike. It is a really big change.

  15. - Top - End - #135
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    The key word here is balance. What is on the other side ofthat balance? I would suggestthatitis one character being balanced against others.

    Now if you play a party of all clerics then your balanceisagainst otherclerices and you are right, the germane metric is acomparisonwith other subclasses. On the other hand ifyou are playing alongside other classes, it is the relative power of your character against those other classes that matters.

    So I guess it comes down to if you are balancing for a single class game or not. Will you be allowing other classes at your table other than cleric?


    That said, giving an extra attack is a big boost. I amnot sure why you are pretending it isn't. Double the chances to break concentration, double the modifiers from magic weapons, double the buffs from spells like divine favour, better able to divide damage up amongst enemies and avoid overkill, ability to shove someone down and still have an attack... oh yeah and just more raw damage than an single attack with divine strike. It is a really big change.
    I feel you're talking past me. Clearly we have such different ideas of what kinds of goals are doable in internal subclass balancing that we'll never see eye to eye. But I'll try to explain myself once more: I feel thinking about overall game balance within the context of a subclass discussion is a fool's errand. It's like trying to fix all of the problems of the game only by altering a single action type: the root of the problem is not in the domain of the change so meaningfully addressing the problem is naturally impossible within the confines of this project.

    Whatever I/you/whoever do(es) with War Cleric won't make a lick of difference with Cleric being superior to other classes. It cannot, as the reason Cleric is so good is mostly its casting and chassis: i.e. the core class, not the subclass. A feature of the core class cannot be changed, fixed or whatever by changing the subclass. That should be obvious. You can't alter a whole wall just by switching the window frame. I'm changing a part (subclass), so the only relevant frame of balance is the whole of what I'm changing (the class and its other subclasses) not everything around it (the other classes).

    If you balance War Cleric specifically against worse classes, you'll accomplish exactly one thing: nobody with system mastery will play War Cleric since it'll be plain worse than other Clerics for no good reason. Other Cleric subclasses will still be superior so the problem remains unsolved: thus you destroyed one subclass for no good reason limiting Cleric variety without improving overall balance.

    If you want to fix Clerics being better than other classes, you do it by fixing the class as a whole, not by leaving one of its subclasses subpar for no good reason. In short, other classes are outside the scope of subclass changes (unless the subclass actually totally replicates another class's shtick, but Extra Attack is so broadly available that it simply can't be considered a key part of any one class's identity).

    FWIW getting two hits is a blessing and a curse. E.g. one big hit is far superior for OAs and more easily breaches the 20 damage threshold to force higher conc saves, and gets more mileage out of "bonus to one hit" abilities like help/familiar, portent, or indeed War Cleric's domain ability.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2020-08-11 at 11:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Hmm, I feel Forge would be fine with its shtick of having really high defensive values (and potential to use SCAGtrips for comparable if not equivalent damage), Tempest with its Divine Strike + BB maximization, etc. But I can see why you might feel that way. However, I certainly feel that Pally doesn't mind (their thing is Smite anyways; the Extra Attack is just an extra chance at Smiting most of the time - and they have their auras and what-not that's different enough from what a Cleric is doing that I don't think it matters too much), and Bladesinger and Valor/Swords Bards both have better (or at the very least, quite different; but ultimately I'd argue a fair bit stronger overall) spell lists so they are different enough that I don't think it would make much of a difference in that sense.

    The class that most suffers would probably be the Barbarian but they have their shtick of being nearly unkillable and all their subclass stuff going on. Overall, I think Cleric with Extra Attack would actually be safe for the very reason that it doesn't really overpowered the other Cleric subclasses (Extra Attack is better than Divine Strike but vs. Divine Strike + SCAGtrip it's actually pretty close; same with Extra Attack vs. Toll the Dead - you need a fair bit of Str or sources of bonus damage for Extra Attack to come out ahead on Tier 3). GWM is of course the big one but given how big of an investment it is (Cleric is already feat-starved and it costs a feat plus some reliable means of generating advantage, which is much harder for Clerics than with trickier casters able to access Shadow Blade or Greater Invisibility or familiars or whatever), I don't think that's really a problem.
    I think you're underestimating Extra Attack, it's the primary damage bump to martial classes transitioning to tier 2, full casters get 3rd level spells, martials (mostly) get Extra Attack, it's no small thing.

    Regarding it's balance in terms of other subclasses: it isn't, it's just better than Divine Strike and Potent Casting at the level range you get it unless you're doing a SCAGtrip build (which is at best competitive and most Clerics have to go out of their way to acquire those cantrips).

    Your changing 1d8 to 1d8(potentially more)+mod, nevermind being able to take advantage on per hit effects more.
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    I think you're underestimating Extra Attack, it's the primary damage bump to martial classes transitioning to tier 2, full casters get 3rd level spells, martials (mostly) get Extra Attack, it's no small thing.

    Regarding it's balance in terms of other subclasses: it isn't, it's just better than Divine Strike and Potent Casting at the level range you get it unless you're doing a SCAGtrip build (which is at best competitive and most Clerics have to go out of their way to acquire those cantrips).

    Your changing 1d8 to 1d8(potentially more)+mod, nevermind being able to take advantage on per hit effects more.
    Agreed, it's better but I don't think it's enough better to be problematic comparatively. Remember that cantrips get a third buff on level 11, where Extra Attack requires you to jump through extra hoops to improve beyond when you get it. Most warriors have extra abilities that trigger off these (Barbarian damage bonus, Paladin Smite, some Fighter subclass abilities, etc.), but this hypothetical Cleric would at best have Divine Favor or something (when you tend to have far better things to Concentrate in on these levels) making it nice but not that nice.
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Agreed, it's better but I don't think it's enough better to be problematic comparatively. Remember that cantrips get a third buff on level 11, where Extra Attack requires you to jump through extra hoops to improve beyond when you get it. Most warriors have extra abilities that trigger off these (Barbarian damage bonus, Paladin Smite, some Fighter subclass abilities, etc.), but this hypothetical Cleric would at best have Divine Favor or something (when you tend to have far better things to Concentrate in on these levels) making it nice but not that nice.
    But cleric cantrips are also pretty bad compared to Extra Attack, and you have to jump through hoops to improve them too (e.g. via Magic Initiate for SCAG cantrips).

    Without feats (because many players really do prioritize stat boosts over feats, rightly or wrongly) and ignoring to-hit/saving throw chances in favor of just assuming they're all pretty much the same to-hit:

    8th level War Cleric with Extra Attack and a greatsword: probably 4d6+d8+6ish (24ish)
    8th level Paladin with Extra Attack, Defense style, and a greatsword: probably 4d6+8ish (22ish) plus better AC
    8th level Forge Cleric with a mace: d6+d8+3ish (11ish), plus better AC

    Even at 11th level, using the best clerical cantrip, the Forge Cleric can't catch up:

    11th level Forge Cleric with Toll the Dead: 3d12 (18ish)

    If we give them both a feat to improve damage, this becomes:

    8th level War Cleric with Extra Attack, Polearm Master, and a halberd: 2d10+d4+d8+9ish (37), plus a reaction attack if enemy approaches for d10+3 (8.5), ideal damage 45.5
    11th level Forge Cleric with mace and Booming Blade: d6+3d8+3ish (20) plus 3d8 (14.5) if the enemy moves, plus better AC, ideal damage 34.5

    So for the Forge Cleric to even come without shouting distance of the War Cleric's at-will DPR, he has to take a SCAG cantrip via race, feat or multiclassing, and hope the enemy triggers the extra damage, and then when that happens the bulk of the damage isn't even coming from his theme as a Forge cleric. Tempest Cleric winds up in a similar place, although I guess Booming Blade is at least thematic for a Tempest Cleric.

    I don't like those incentives or the place you wind up with this rule variant. War Cleric with Extra Attack rule variant is too self-sufficient, not enough like a priest. Extra Attack on the War Cleric is a bridge too far. If you want genuine Extra Attack on a war priest so you can be a warrior AND a priest all day, play a multiclassed Fighter/Cleric or Paladin/Cleric. If you just want to play a warrior occasionally, War Priest's limited number of bonus attacks by RAW is fine: you can play a warrior on TV but you haven't invested heavily in it.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-08-11 at 01:47 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #139
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    I feel you're talking past me. Clearly we have such different ideas of what kinds of goals are doable in internal subclass balancing that we'll never see eye to eye. But I'll try to explain myself once more: I feel thinking about overall game balance within the context of a subclass discussion is a fool's errand. It's like trying to fix all of the problems of the game only by altering a single action type: the root of the problem is not in the domain of the change so meaningfully addressing the problem is naturally impossible within the confines of this project.
    OK, this may be true. Nevertheless I think that there may be some things we agree on and some we disagree. I am going to have a stab at trying to build this up.

    Agree

    War Cleric should be the most "martial" cleric option (whatever that means)

    War cleric is lacking a little in character

    Changing the war cleric should not make the best cleric options any stronger relative to other classes

    An additional attack is more powerful than divine strike

    Its OK to break traditions in a subclass

    The base class should not be subjected to any nerfs to make an adjustment to the subclass work


    Disagree (what I think you think that I disagree with

    An extra attack is a sufficiently modest increase that it does not require rebalancing elsewhere

    It is OK for the war cleric to be the best cleric at being a martial but shouldn't need to sacrifice any spellcasting prowess to balance this

    The war cleric is weak

    If the war cleric got an extra attack instead of divine strike it wouldn't be far enough above the bottom of cleric domains that it would increase the average power of clerics played

    That balance within a class matters more than balance between classes




    If nothing else, this can at least act as a check that I understand you.


    [QUOTE=Eldariel;24657622]
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Whatever I/you/whoever do(es) with War Cleric won't make a lick of difference with Cleric being superior to other classes. It cannot, as the reason Cleric is so good is mostly its casting and chassis: i.e. the core class, not the subclass. A feature of the core class cannot be changed, fixed or whatever by changing the subclass. That should be obvious. You can't alter a whole wall just by switching the window frame. I'm changing a part (subclass), so the only relevant frame of balance is the whole of what I'm changing (the class and its other subclasses) not everything around it (the other classes).
    You might not be able to make the balance between classes much better... but that doesn't mean you can't avoid making it worse. Ifyou put a cleric option onthe table that is more powerful than whatever else that player would have played then you are putting into play a more powerful character. If you are taking a good class and making the characters that are fielded from that strong class stronger, then you are making balance worse.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    If you balance War Cleric specifically against worse classes, you'll accomplish exactly one thing: nobody with system mastery will play War Cleric since it'll be plain worse than other Clerics for no good reason. Other Cleric subclasses will still be superior so the problem remains unsolved: thus you destroyed one subclass for no good reason limiting Cleric variety without improving overall balance.
    And if you make it equal to the best then we just begin the cycle again with a new class on the bottom that doesn't get played because others are better and you keep boosting and boosting and boosting... No one playing war cleric is no worse than no one playing trickery cleric or whatever else might be regarded as lower than War. Improving balance means moving things towards a more similar power level not indulging in an arms racewhere everyone tries to push their pet favourite to the top.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    If you want to fix Clerics being better than other classes, you do it by fixing the class as a whole, not by leaving one of its subclasses subpar for no good reason. In short, other classes are outside the scope of subclass changes (unless the subclass actually totally replicates another class's shtick, but Extra Attack is so broadly available that it simply can't be considered a key part of any one class's identity).
    But the class isn't sub-par. You just don't like it (to be fair, I don't like it either but i distinguish between a matter of style and and a matter of power). There is a difference. It is a perfectly viable character, and likely to be one of the more influential ones at any given table. Again - not adding an attack won't fix the cleric but it won't make it worse either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    FWIW getting two hits is a blessing and a curse. E.g. one big hit is far superior for OAs and more easily breaches the 20 damage threshold to force higher conc saves, and gets more mileage out of "bonus to one hit" abilities like help/familiar, portent, or indeed War Cleric's domain ability.
    A blessing and a curse - but on a cleric much more of the latter. You are unlikely to get big hit OAs with the cleric as the bonus damage only applies on your turn. Also, only at the highest levels would I consider it likely that your damage would exceed 20. With a +4 attack stat you would still need a 18 on your weapon dice and your divine strike dice to see any effect... and rolling a total of 20 or more to see an appreciable difference over two attacks.



    I think one thing I implied,but never clearly stated is that I think the big problem is that this is a boost when both the class and the subclass are really strong. In tier 2 you are probably getting things like plate armour that the cleric loves, you get spiritual weapon and banishment spells. Your subclass abilities are racking up with multiple uses of a solid enough channel divinity and so on. I would be happier if something like this were to be the level 14 or 17 ability - buffing the subclass where it might be considered to fall behind.

  20. - Top - End - #140
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    {Scrubbed}

    "Spiritual Weapon" is a spell. It is not a class feature that is called "Extra Attack". The two things work differently in a number of substantial ways mechanically and narratively.

    Whether or not War Clerics need Extra Attack is not what I am discussing. I am discussing the false claims you and another poster made.

    Whether your false claims are "concise" or not is wholly irrelevant. They are correct in as much as Clerics do have Spiritual Weapon, of course, but you are not correct in saying that Spiritual Weapon, or War Priest for that matter, are Extra Attack.
    So your issue is you thought I meant it literally when I said Spiritual Weapon is the Extra Attack.

    You are absolutely right Spiritual Weapon is not the Extra Attack class feature. The point is it's equivalent enough that a cleric doesn't need the Extra Attack class feature for those who want to go the warrior cleric route.
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  21. - Top - End - #141
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Well...maybe something more like this?

    Spoiler: Alternative War Domain?
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    Domain Spells
    • 1st-divine favor, shield of faith
    • 3rd-magic weapon, spiritual weapon
    • 5th-crusader's mantle, spirit guardians
    • 7th-aura of life, staggering smite
    • 9th-circle of power, banishing smite

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    At 1st level, you gain proficiency with martial weapons and heavy armor.

    War Blessing
    From 1st level, you can use your bonus action to choose one creature (other than yourself) within 60 feet of you who can see you. Once within the next 10 minutes, this creature can roll an additional 1d8 and add the result to one damage roll it makes. No creature can have more than one War Blessing active on them at a time. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (a minimum of once). You regain any expended uses when you finish a long rest.

    Channel Divinity: War Priest's Strike
    Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to strike with supernatural alacrity. When you use the Attack action, you can also use your Channel Divinity to make an additional weapon attack as a bonus action.

    Guiding War Chant
    At 6th level, whenever you cast a spell, you gain a +10 bonus to the attack roll of the first weapon attack you make before the end of your next turn.

    Divine Strike
    At 8th level you gain the ability to infuse your weapon strikes with divine energy. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d8 damage of the same type dealt by the weapon to the target. When you reach 14th level, the extra damage increases to 2d8.

    Avatar of Battle
    At 17th level, you gain resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from nonmagical weapons. In addition, the dice granted by your War Blessing increase to 2d8, and you regain any expended uses of War Blessing when you finish a short or a long rest.
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  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    In AD&D there was a point when clerics put down the mace, and did more with spells....eventually cleric melee attacks are like the emergency spare tire in a car, there just in case.

    The Bonus Action requirement can be removed from the War Priest ability. Similar to some Ranger abilities, when the cleric takes the Attack action, let them make one additional attack with the same weapon, with the same action. The cleric can do this up to WIS modifier per Long Rest.

    This allows one to eliminate the annoying artifact that as it stands now, one cannot use War Priest and Spiritual Weapon on the same turn, which is a cinematic moment players want to have available to them.

    I also think swapping out some of their Domain Spells would help. The War Domain spell list stays a little too close to the cleric spell list, it needs one more dip into another classes' spell list.

    Since it is not an onerous burden for clerics to always prepare the Spirit Guardians spell, removing that particular spell from the list and swapping it for the Haste spell, would make the class feel more dynamic.

    I'm always surprised at how many people are dissatisfied with the subclass, for a 2 level dip their CD is a solid option that recharges on a Short Rest.

    The combination of Action Economy efficiency and DPR impact within Guided Strike is top shelf.
    Last edited by Satori01; 2020-08-11 at 11:33 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Of the 3 melee oriented Clerics, War is the most limited. Granted, it is very strong at tier 1 of play, he quickly loses his edge once the other clerics get Spiritual Weapon. Guided Strike/War God's Blessing is awesome in the right party, but all the other abilities key of STR, which is a really bad idea.

    For the level 2 ability, Tempest and War abilities go hand to hand in output. War has the option to specialize and become a monster in tier 1, which can be a good idea depending on campaign, but it really isnt worth the trouble if the game's going to reach tier 2.

    I consider Death to have the best ability since Toll the Dead was introduced.

    So I'd say, overall, Death >>> War = Tempest unless in T1 where it's War > Death > Tempest
    Don't forget that War needs to go both STR and WIS and get feats to get the most out of it, while Tempest only needs WIS and eventually all clerics can emulate War's ability with SW.

    For channel divinities, Tempest has by far the best. Also a maximized shatter can oneshot a fairly good portion of the monster manual, so at that level it's an encounter ending combo.

    War is as good as the highest weapon damage character in the party. If you have a shadowblade gish, you will get more mileage out of it, if you are the only melee in the party, tough luck.

    Death has the most linear scaling. It's also the only single classed cleric that can actually do some nova damage. It can do upwards of 100 damage per turn.

    I'd say Tempest > Death > War.

    (If you have a rogue or a high weapon damage gish in the party, War can pull ahead, but at very high levels, the others pull ahead again.)

    For Domain Spells

    Death and Tempest have better synergy between domain spells and domain abilities.
    Can't say the same for War.

    Vampiric Touch is super strong on Death Cleric, due to how it works with Death Touch, the ability to bypass necrotic damage, and helps with the fact that it lacks heavy armor.
    Maximized Call Lightning and Shatter are deadly.
    War doesn't have any synergy at all. However there is a window where Animate Dead + Crusader's Mantle can be potent. I don't like it very much, but it's something to keep in mind.
    Last edited by Gtdead; 2020-08-12 at 01:02 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #144
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    OK, this may be true. Nevertheless I think that there may be some things we agree on and some we disagree. I am going to have a stab at trying to build this up.

    Agree

    War Cleric should be the most "martial" cleric option (whatever that means)

    War cleric is lacking a little in character

    Changing the war cleric should not make the best cleric options any stronger relative to other classes

    An additional attack is more powerful than divine strike

    Its OK to break traditions in a subclass

    The base class should not be subjected to any nerfs to make an adjustment to the subclass work
    Mostly agreed.


    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    Disagree (what I think you think that I disagree with

    An extra attack is a sufficiently modest increase that it does not require rebalancing elsewhere

    It is OK for the war cleric to be the best cleric at being a martial but shouldn't need to sacrifice any spellcasting prowess to balance this
    This is where I disagree: I think it's already sacrificing spellcasting prowess by not having any subclass features that buff spellcasting prowess and having a rather poor Domain list (a lot of Cleric spells and the few spells from other lists are largely uninspiring).

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    The war cleric is weak
    I don't think it's weak. Or rather, I don't think "X is weak" means anything in a vacuum. I do think that outside multiclassing it is generally weaker than most of the other Cleric subclasses though.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    If the war cleric got an extra attack instead of divine strike it wouldn't be far enough above the bottom of cleric domains that it would increase the average power of clerics played
    It might increase the average power level but mostly it would just mean more War Clerics and less other Clerics played so as long as it isn't the strongest subclass overall, the change wouldn't be dramatic, I don't think.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    That balance within a class matters more than balance between classes
    I think balance between classes matters a lot, I just don't think it's something we can address here. If we want to fix balance between classes, we'll have to revamp the whole system or at least all the non-caster classes entirely (as in a full overhaul), which is a project of a scope I don't have resources for.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    And if you make it equal to the best then we just begin the cycle again with a new class on the bottom that doesn't get played because others are better and you keep boosting and boosting and boosting... No one playing war cleric is no worse than no one playing trickery cleric or whatever else might be regarded as lower than War. Improving balance means moving things towards a more similar power level not indulging in an arms racewhere everyone tries to push their pet favourite to the top.

    But the class isn't sub-par. You just don't like it (to be fair, I don't like it either but i distinguish between a matter of style and and a matter of power). There is a difference. It is a perfectly viable character, and likely to be one of the more influential ones at any given table. Again - not adding an attack won't fix the cleric but it won't make it worse either.
    Trickery Cleric isn't bad. Indeed, War Cleric is really the only Cleric subclass I feel that really fails at capturing its given fantasy, and that falls a bit short of the average power level of the subclasses.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    A blessing and a curse - but on a cleric much more of the latter. You are unlikely to get big hit OAs with the cleric as the bonus damage only applies on your turn. Also, only at the highest levels would I consider it likely that your damage would exceed 20. With a +4 attack stat you would still need a 18 on your weapon dice and your divine strike dice to see any effect... and rolling a total of 20 or more to see an appreciable difference over two attacks.
    Well, if you BB on tier 3 you get 3d8+1d8+4ish which is already 22 on average. Above 20 if not by much. You don't need to roll all that well or have all that many auxiliary sources of damage bonuses to force some rather difficult Conc saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    I think one thing I implied,but never clearly stated is that I think the big problem is that this is a boost when both the class and the subclass are really strong. In tier 2 you are probably getting things like plate armour that the cleric loves, you get spiritual weapon and banishment spells. Your subclass abilities are racking up with multiple uses of a solid enough channel divinity and so on. I would be happier if something like this were to be the level 14 or 17 ability - buffing the subclass where it might be considered to fall behind.
    *shrug* I feel compared to other subclasses it kinda falls short at this point and more to the point, I feel it stupid that every other caster has some kind of Multiattack action (even Sorcs have Twin SCAGtrip) but Cleric, probably the most martial caster of all fluffwise, doesn't have any such options. And the most logical place to give it instead makes it compete with your iconic spell, Spiritual Weapon, for your bonus action (a competition it usually loses)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    But cleric cantrips are also pretty bad compared to Extra Attack, and you have to jump through hoops to improve them too (e.g. via Magic Initiate for SCAG cantrips).

    Without feats (because many players really do prioritize stat boosts over feats, rightly or wrongly) and ignoring to-hit/saving throw chances in favor of just assuming they're all pretty much the same to-hit:

    8th level War Cleric with Extra Attack and a greatsword: probably 4d6+d8+6ish (24ish)
    8th level Paladin with Extra Attack, Defense style, and a greatsword: probably 4d6+8ish (22ish) plus better AC
    8th level Forge Cleric with a mace: d6+d8+3ish (11ish), plus better AC

    Even at 11th level, using the best clerical cantrip, the Forge Cleric can't catch up:

    11th level Forge Cleric with Toll the Dead: 3d12 (18ish)

    If we give them both a feat to improve damage, this becomes:

    8th level War Cleric with Extra Attack, Polearm Master, and a halberd: 2d10+d4+d8+9ish (37), plus a reaction attack if enemy approaches for d10+3 (8.5), ideal damage 45.5
    11th level Forge Cleric with mace and Booming Blade: d6+3d8+3ish (20) plus 3d8 (14.5) if the enemy moves, plus better AC, ideal damage 34.5

    So for the Forge Cleric to even come without shouting distance of the War Cleric's at-will DPR, he has to take a SCAG cantrip via race, feat or multiclassing, and hope the enemy triggers the extra damage, and then when that happens the bulk of the damage isn't even coming from his theme as a Forge cleric. Tempest Cleric winds up in a similar place, although I guess Booming Blade is at least thematic for a Tempest Cleric.

    I don't like those incentives or the place you wind up with this rule variant. War Cleric with Extra Attack rule variant is too self-sufficient, not enough like a priest. Extra Attack on the War Cleric is a bridge too far. If you want genuine Extra Attack on a war priest so you can be a warrior AND a priest all day, play a multiclassed Fighter/Cleric or Paladin/Cleric. If you just want to play a warrior occasionally, War Priest's limited number of bonus attacks by RAW is fine: you can play a warrior on TV but you haven't invested heavily in it.
    Your analysis is of course correct, but we'll have to remember that in this case the War Cleric is using 3 actions (Action, Bonus Action, Reaction) while the Forge Cleric is only using one action (Action). They both could swap their secondary attacks for Spiritual Weapon, which would even things out a tad and if the Forge gets an OA once in 3 rounds, that would also push things more in their favour. But yeah, PAM Extra Attack would of course be good - but I'm not sure it's really better enough to actually be problematic.
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  25. - Top - End - #145

    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Your analysis is of course correct, but we'll have to remember that in this case the War Cleric is using 3 actions (Action, Bonus Action, Reaction) while the Forge Cleric is only using one action (Action). They both could swap their secondary attacks for Spiritual Weapon, which would even things out a tad and if the Forge gets an OA once in 3 rounds, that would also push things more in their favour. But yeah, PAM Extra Attack would of course be good - but I'm not sure it's really better enough to actually be problematic.
    Totally fair point. I think it's a subjective judgment call here on whether you like or dislike the idea of full casters relying on SCAGtrips for almost-Fighter-equivalent damage (***) and whether you think War Priests ought to be about personally swinging weapons vs. encouraging/inspiring weapon-swingers.

    I agree that the total level of power-creep would be unlikely to be problematic per se.

    *** I dislike it enough that it's one of my reasons for granting opportunity attacks against spellcasters who don't have Warcaster.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-08-12 at 04:00 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Default Re: Folks don't seem fond of War Domain

    Folks never was fond o' war. Course, war don't much care what folks' a fond a. "When men march, even farmers go hungry," my pa used ta say. War marched right into my life on a foggy October morning...
    May I borrow some bat guano? It's for a spell...

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