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2020-08-07, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
It's easy to march on something once you know where it is (which Tarquin didn't until Nale and the Order have found it for him).
Also, high level psions seem to be even more rare in the setting than vampires (heck, Redcloak wasn't even sure at some point if psionics is a thing in their universe or not).
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2020-08-07, 12:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
It's not; I doubt they would have figured out how Lirian accomplished it at all if she hadn't told them.
I agree, but until that catch is known I have no problem standing by it. I fully expect to change my view if the catch changes things.
The same two Evil people who understood the mindset of Good paladins?
No more stupid than Soon not warding his tower against a Great Wyrm dragon. Which is to say, not stupid at all.
Why, it's almost as if all the Gates had "security through obscurity" as an additional measure.Last edited by Peelee; 2020-08-07 at 12:29 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2020-08-07, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
I disagree, Soon's belief was that "only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable" and so his defenses consisted of the Sapphire Guard both in life and in death. However that very same belief in their infallibility (plus some classism on Soon's part in hiring only nobles) is what corrupted them and caused them to fail in three different ways:
1) Rather than stay focused on what should have been a single-target strike against the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, the SG embarked in an extermination campaign, and in so doing, created the the main threat to the safety of all Gates.
2) In their desire to appear to be ideal paladins they negelected to capture their ennemy's main asset (the Mantle) so they can humblebrag about it.
3) Miko crippled the defenses of the City and thrusted the leadership of the gaurd to an inexperienced leader in a time of crisis, and later destroyed Soon's Gate even though she was part of its defenses.
Because they were so confident in their "unbreakable honor" they never stopped to consider what the hell they were doing and wether they could be wrong until O-Chul and Shojo reformed them but by then the damage was already done.Forum Wisdom
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2020-08-07, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2020
Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
I wonder. That's anyone's guess, really, but they would have had a chance knowing their opoonent is a nature-loving hippie, so it's likely some nature-based trick.
The same two Evil people who understood the mindset of Good paladins?
No more stupid than Soon not warding his tower against a Great Wyrm dragon. Which is to say, not stupid at all.
Why, it's almost as if all the Gates had "security through obscurity" as an additional measure.
1. Granted, they wer massive jerks and many goblins have reason enough to hate them as fiercely as it gets. However,amd at any rate, long before the Guard was established and long before the Guard began to go on crusades (both of which happened after the Scribblers disbanded themselves).Spoiler: SoDas far as we know, the Mantle was created not long after D. and L. finished sealing the first Rift,
2. I'm yet to read Good Deeds, so I have no answer for that.
3.Miko had issues, but
were it so, Miko would have been much less suspicious of them; in which case she likely would not have gone so far as killing her liege for conspiring with them; in which case things would have turned out otherwise.Spoiler: OOotPC
were it not for V blowing up his prison by accident, Belkar would not have broken loose and would not have had reason to skip town; were he not looking for a good way to skip town, he wouldn't have ensured Roy will hire him; were he not hired, the Order would have had Good and Neutral members only;
). It's not Soon's fault that Miko went rogue, and not the Guard's fault, either.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-08-07 at 12:50 PM.
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2020-08-07, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
So you want to both argue that they could not understand the mindset of one of the Scribblers they did not share the mindset of, but could understand the mindset of another of the Scribblers they did not share the mindset of? That's certainly a bold strategy, I'll give you that.
The runes were purely magical - Reddie and Xykon are equipped to understand pure magic. Neither of them have many, if any, demonstrated skillpoints in Medicine or Knowledge (Nature), however, so it is pretty unlikely they would figure out why Xykon lost his powers, especially since Redcloak didn't, without being explicitly told why.
Let's take a Lawful view - would Redcloak accept the terms presented to him immediately by a Devil, without suspecting something? Heck, Redcloak didn't even accepting the terms of a Lawful dwarf without suspecting something a few strips ago.
This is not a strictly Lawful issue.
Not at all. I'm saying that powerful, free-willed undead, like Great Wyrm dragons, are rare in this setting. I believe I have been very clear on this point.
You mean the Gate that Redcloak and Xykon wouldn't even have known was there if some other goblin hadn't told his god?
Imean, that was your argument against Tarkin's army, right? He didn't find it himself so it doesn't count?Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-08-07, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Absolutely, it did not work. We know it didn't work. However it's the why that matters here; Lirian's defenses would have worked if not faced by an out of settingly strong Lich and an army they had not anticipated working together. Her forces were enough to guard the gate while she dealt with major threats or vice versa, except they faced two major threats at once including once.
Lirian was quite right that the largest threat was a high power caster so she built a macguffin for it, then got beaten because Xykon became a Lich (which no one else knows about but Redcloak), was a higher level character then anyone else in the setting, and had an army.
Edit: Static defenses are also not meant to win but to slow enemies. If Xykon had been met by all of the Scribbles this would not be a series, but he wasn't because they had made monumentally bad decisions. Again, none of them call to the others for assistance, even Dorukan doesn't pop in to help.
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2020-08-07, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2014
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Level scaling?
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2020-08-07, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2020
Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Mhm. I suppose that's why throwing live goblins on it was the best strategy of trying to understand their nature they could come up with in all that time.
Let's take a Lawful view - would Redcloak accept the terms presented to him immediately by a Devil, without suspecting something? Heck, Redcloak didn't even accepting the terms of a Lawful dwarf without suspecting something a few strips ago.
This is not a strictly Lawful issue.
Not at all. I'm saying that powerful, free-willed undead, like Great Wyrm dragons, are rare in this setting. I believe I have been very clear on this point.
You mean the Gate that Redcloak and Xykon wouldn't even have known was there if some other goblin hadn't told his god?
I mean, that was your argument against Tarquin's army, right? He didn't find it himself so it doesn't count?
Lirian tied her Gate which looked liked a Gate to some trees.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-08-07 at 02:24 PM.
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2020-08-07, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Heh, in old school D&D one learned that "the party that fights and runs away may live to fight another day" ... but I digress. Looks like Xykon and RC are doing an epic version of Take 20 at Monster Hollow ...
Yes. And even he's a chump compared to the Snarl being let loose. Same with Dark Matter.Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
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2020-08-07, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
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2020-08-07, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Lirian's defenses seemed to prioritize making the gate un-capturable as it would require keeping the treants alive and immobilized before they could act. Though I imagine TE could have pulled that off. I guess the thought was that by the time a powerful threat bypassed the other defenses, the treants were supposed to break the gate, maybe.
I has Trophies!
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2020-08-07, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
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- England. Ish.
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Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.
"The main skill of a good ruler seems to be not preventing the conflagrations but rather keeping them contained enough they rate more as campfires." Rogar Demonblud
"Hold on just a d*** second. UK has spam callers that try to get you to buy conservatories?!? Even y'alls spammers are higher class than ours!" Peelee
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2020-08-07, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2013
Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Xykon and Redcloak probably cleared out most of the worst defences, but more importantly: Dorukan's Gate was secure because it had an Epic Wizard sitting on it.
Dorukan's Gate was only compromised because he flew into a panic and went out to throw himself at Xykon. If he'd kept his head, he could have cast Limited Wish for a Death Ward and ruined Xykon's whole day. Hell, he could have kicked back and researched Dorukan's Epic Smite Lich or something.
The Gates tend to fail because of a flaw in their guardians. Dorukan's was that for all his intelligence, he couldn't think straight when emotionally provoked.
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2020-08-07, 09:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Beverly, MA, USA
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2020-08-07, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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2020-08-07, 10:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2019
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- Magrathea
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2020-08-07 at 10:07 PM.
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
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2020-08-08, 04:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Which is weird, since when Lirian's Gate was set up, Lirian had no reason to believe that their spell can be corrupted via something like the Dark One's Ritual (and I'd assume that they would have come up with some other way of sealing the Rifts were they to realize that Gates are unsafe), and therefore one would think that her priority should have been keeping the Rift sealed.
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2020-08-08, 04:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Personally I don't think Dorukan lost his head or anything. He just took a calculated risk (it was legitimately the only way he could get Lirian back for certain) and lost.
Last edited by hrožila; 2020-08-08 at 04:43 AM.
ungelic is us
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2020-08-10, 12:19 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2018
Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
One aspect of the Gates being vulnerable is they ARE GATES
As Ive said elsewhere - they arent meant to be seals on the rifts - they are meant to be Gates to the other world whilst also sealing the Snarl away. As the Giant has said, the Gates are a connection from the prison plane to the material world. They exist to access that plane without letting the Snarl out.'Utślie'n aurė! Aiya Eldaliė ar Atanatįri, utślie'n aurė! The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómė!" The night is passing!"
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2020-08-10, 12:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-10, 04:52 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2018
Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Im referring to the quote about moving the Gates to the outer planes to kill the gods
Its something like its a connection to the prison plane. When you move it you connect the prison plane to one of the outer planes and the Snarl moves there and kills the gods in that plane. But then the evil gods will spam portals from that plane to the Dark Ones plane.
In fact your quote also has that concept. He literally calls it a doorway - NOT a patch or anything that suggests they are sealing off the path. Yes the word seal is used but at the same time so is door and doorway. So to me that suggests they were making a door to that other world whilst stopping the Snarl using it. Sort of like those Perspex tunnels you get in sea life centres that you can walk through the bottom of the main tank.Last edited by mjasghar; 2020-08-10 at 04:57 AM.
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2020-08-10, 05:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
This last part is IMO key.
I agree, in so far he wasn't panicking or something like that. The problem here is that he took the calculated risk at all, and IMO like most wizards overestimated his ability over "a mere sorceror".
He shouldn't have risked the gate, not even for Lirian and he for sure shouldn't blaze out against an lich sorceror. That is one or perhaps the fundemental flaw in Dorukan. When considering protecting gates and not things like being an emotionally balanced human being.
Every single time a wizard has though "wizards are better then sorceror's I can take him" Xykon wins. Because the wizards arne't using the strengths of a wizard and effectively playing Xykons game of strength and brute force.
On another note all the gates seem woefyull weak against actual physical harm. If we consider that the gates are needed to shore up reality Lirian's got torn apart by trees running from fire. Dorukan built a self destruct into the castle. Miko smashed through Soon's gate and Roy whacked Girard's. Most of the defences tried to protect against possession, yet all have fallen to outright destruction instead.
I've seen no real impression that this is the case. RC and TDO may think this can happen, I question if they really know anything what they are messing about. TDO clearly isn't too well informed about what is going on since he's not talking to the other gods. Which means that everything we know about TDO's plan, RC supposedly follows and even he hasn't spoken to his god, rests on hearsay. The problem with the entire plan is, that it seems the other gods can just unmake reality before RC and Xykon could complete the ritual.
I can't remember seeing if the other gods are are even worried something like that can happen, obviously they can be blindisded, but seeing how many worlds the gods been through, I kinda suspect TSO knows less than TDO thinks of reality.Last edited by snowblizz; 2020-08-10 at 05:50 AM.
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2020-08-16, 11:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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- Seoul
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Let's see. For the four Gates we do know about:
- Lilian's Gate: This is a very much "why the heck did she not do X" situation yes, but I do think people are underselling it somewhat. Yes, undead(and constructs for that matter) are immune to her guardian virus trump card. It works on virtually everything else, though, and the few outliers can usually be ignored by the simple fact that there's an epic druid squatting in the area. Lilian is an elf, so it's not even like she'd die of old age any time soon, either. She did make a number of tactical mistakes - arguably the only reason she did so poorly against him is because the narrative wanted to show what abilities Xykon gained from his transformation - but I'd say the only really damning mistakes were blabbing about how her greatest asset worked and the existence of the other Gates.
- Dorukan's Gate: The only real problem here was human error; Dorukan did manage to keep a hold on himself until Xykon literally forced his girlfriend's soul to watch her corpse get devoured. Did he make a fatal mistake? Yes. Is it that easy to ignore? Well... I'd say no, personally. As for the dungeon itself, I'd say that the Sigil was more of a last line of defense rather than the only one that mattered. Remember, Xykon's forces basically gutted the dungeon and there probably would have been guardians to warn Good-aligned people away otherwise even if Dorkuan had croaked by then.
- Soon's Gate: I think the Sapphire Guard did shoot themselves in the foot by antagonizing the goblins so much when TDO clearly knew that the Gates were a thing, so even if it hadn't been Team Evil specifically there was always the risk of them invading. In a sense, it was possibly the only Gate where the most realistic option was "bring an army". That being said, it wasn't lost easily, and if Miko hadn't destroyed the gem with the Gate in it then Soon would have finished the two biggest threats. And unless you have magical weapons you can't even hurt him. That being said, if the ghost-paladins can't return after getting "turned", then the defenses would have been seriously weakened and the city would still have been in ruins whether or not Miko had blown up the Gate. Still, the flaws it did have aren't exactly ones that could really be fixed easily and/or aren't exactly obvious ones.
- Girard's Gate: I'll be blunt; calling this one a bust because the Draketooths were wiped out by Familicide is like calling a snow fort a failure because it can't stand multiple point-blank tactical nuke strikes. It was actually hidden better than any of the other Gates except maybe Soon's, and it had a large number of high-level sorcerers as defenders. While undead can ignore a lot of some of the stronger illusion spells and True Seeing is an extremely efficient counter, it's still a bit of a catch-22. An army will probably not have the resources to give enough people True Seeing, and smaller groups are unlikely to have as much raw spellcasting power. Remember, illusions were only the main class of abilities they could use, so even if half the spells they knew were illusions they could still spontaneously cast the other half just fine, and that's assuming that your protections don't get dispelled.
Honestly, the biggest reasons the Gates have fallen could be said to be narrative reasons rather than inherent flaws:
- Lilian used the forces of nature to defend her Gate; she was killed by Xykon(undead) the Gate was accidentally destroyed by Redcloak(unnatural lifespan extension.
- Dorkuan trusted in his wizardry and the Sigil of Pure Heart; he was killed by Xykon(a sorcerer) and his Gate was destroyed by Elan(Good-aligned but dumb).
- Soon's Gate was protected by the army of Azure City and the Sapphire Guard; the city fell to a stronger army and the Gate was destroyed by Miko, a fallen paladin - and if Redcloak(wronged by the Guard) hadn't turned all the oathspirits, she probably wouldn't have gone straight for the gem either).
- Girard protected his Gate with his family of sorcerers and deception; the family was wiped out by Familicide and Roy saw through his bluff simply because of cross-class ranks in Knowledge(engineering and architecture).
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