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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    bard college of eloquence is great and fine and all. But the level six feature just feels like a burn out to me. I can't even think of very many times that it would be useful compared to simply casting tongues on a target.

    Maybe if you're curse or suffering madness that stops you from speaking properly...maybe as quick one off to ask if using tongues is okay so people don't freak at spell casting...umm...that it for me anyways.

    Why couldn't it be any creatures you target with this(Including your self as an option) can understand each other perfectly regardless of languages they speak or lack there of? I don't know, am I just expecting to much? can you guys think of ANY other use outside of the two I listed before that makes this worth while as a mid tier feature?
    Last edited by FoxWolFrostFire; 2020-08-05 at 09:49 PM. Reason: Adjusted the title to be a bit more clear on my issue with the subclass

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    HalflingWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    I’m pretty sure Universal Speech is what the designers call a ribbon feature, in that it’s not there to provide mechanical weight but rather thematic flavor. Class and subclass ribbons generally are accompanied by a heftier feature at the same level. For example, the Storm Sorcerer also gets two features at level 6: Heart of the Storm and Storm Guide, the latter (which merely allows some minor control over wind and rain) being the explicit example of a ribbon when it first appeared in UA, while the former carries the weight for the level.

    If we look at the College of Eloquence, we see that at Level 6 the subclass gets another feature in addition to Universal Speech: the bees’-knees good Unfailing Inspiration. This is the primary feature of the level, not universal speech which is mostly there for thematic purposes.

    Also, bards are spells-known casters, not spells-prepared, so it’s possible a bard won’t know Tongues.

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Pay attention, it doesn't need the other creatures to by intelligent or have a language at all.
    It ia extremely useful to be able to talk to any creature regardless of the creature ability to understand.

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Quote Originally Posted by P. G. Macer View Post
    Also, bards are spells-known casters, not spells-prepared, so it’s possible a bard won’t know Tongues.
    Even if they do know Tongues, it saves them a spell known so they can learn something else instead and saves them a 3rd level spell slot.

    If you're spending an extensive amount of time with allies who don't speak your language the 1 hour limit on Tongues is going to see you run out of spell slots real fast.

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    It's definitely a ribbon, but there's something to be said to be able to cast Comprehend Languages as a ritual and use Universal Speech to get basically the benefits of Tongues for free once a day, and expend a 1st level spell slot to do it again. I know I'd rather spend nothing as opposed to a 3rd level slot.

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSnake'sCha View Post
    Pay attention, it doesn't need the other creatures to by intelligent or have a language at all.
    It ia extremely useful to be able to talk to any creature regardless of the creature ability to understand.
    I've got to say that doesn't matter when YOU can't understand them back. In just let down by what I thought would be bar none my favorite feature in the game.
    The subclass is still great but...eh. Guess it is just me.

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxWolFrostFire View Post
    I've got to say that doesn't matter when YOU can't understand them back. In just let down by what I thought would be bar none my favorite feature in the game.
    The subclass is still great but...eh. Guess it is just me.
    Just noticed the subclass is no longer UA.
    The final version look incredibly weak.

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSnake'sCha View Post
    Just noticed the subclass is no longer UA.
    The final version look incredibly weak.
    As the others pointed out combing comprehend languages can help with things that can speak a language but for the any creature...like the ones who normally can't speak. Shafted . I was hoping for a feature that let me have a insightful chit chat with an owl bear or blink dog. Instead I get a subpar tounges to talk at a creature while giving confused nods in return to their varying sounds

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxWolFrostFire View Post
    I've got to say that doesn't matter when YOU can't understand them back. In just let down by what I thought would be bar none my favorite feature in the game.
    The subclass is still great but...eh. Guess it is just me.
    Yeah, this is a very strange feature. Especially since it now requires you to expend a spell slot in order to use it more than once. And since you also need another spell slot for Comprehend Languages, why not just cast Tongues and save everyone a lot of faffing about?

    To be honest, this feature seems like something that shouldn't even require a resource expenditure. Given that it only works one way anyway, I really don't see why this couldn't have been either unlimited use or else just on all the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSnake'sCha View Post
    Just noticed the subclass is no longer UA.
    The final version look incredibly weak.
    I don't know whether it's mechanically weak, but to me it looks unbelievably dull.

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Yeah, this is a very strange feature. Especially since it now requires you to expend a spell slot in order to use it more than once. And since you also need another spell slot for Comprehend Languages, why not just cast Tongues and save everyone a lot of faffing about?

    To be honest, this feature seems like something that shouldn't even require a resource expenditure. Given that it only works one way anyway, I really don't see why this couldn't have been either unlimited use or else just on all the time.




    I don't know whether it's mechanically weak, but to me it looks unbelievably dull.
    It is both boring and weak. There is no reason this had to be either. I mean this is like a key aspect of the colleges fluff.
    Again just let the bard target a number of creatures and they can understand each other regardless of intelligence, language, or ability to speak.

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxWolFrostFire View Post
    It is both boring and weak. There is no reason this had to be either. I mean this is like a key aspect of the colleges fluff.
    Again just let the bard target a number of creatures and they can understand each other regardless of intelligence, language, or ability to speak.
    Yeah, that would have been a lot better.

    Maybe have it cost a Bardic Inspiration and let it affect a number of creatures equal to a roll of the Inspiration Dice + the bard's Charisma (minimum 1)?

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Yeah, that would have been a lot better.

    Maybe have it cost a Bardic Inspiration and let it affect a number of creatures equal to a roll of the Inspiration Dice + the bard's Charisma (minimum 1)?
    Also amazing. That means it burns a core feature but for sure will always be able to effect the bard+1 other. Might have to house rule this and ask for this change when I get to play

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxWolFrostFire View Post
    Also amazing. That means it burns a core feature but for sure will always be able to effect the bard+1 other. Might have to house rule this and ask for this change when I get to play
    It is really similar to the UA version.
    Take a look.
    https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/une...a/bard-paladin

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSnake'sCha View Post
    It is really similar to the UA version.
    Take a look.
    https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/une...a/bard-paladin
    Indeed, that's because I based it on the UA version.

    Frankly, notwithstanding the issue with the communication being one-way, the UA version seemed like a much more sensible use of resources than the actual published class.

    Of course, since my revised version would be two-way, it would need to target at least 2 creatures, hence why I also added the Bard's charisma modifier (or 1, whichever is higher) to the number rolled.

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    I like how you guys are complaining about "weak" features on a class that a) can reduce a creatures spell save by an inspiration die, b) will never loose a deception or persuasion check if it doesn't want to, and c) will never "waste" an inspiration after lvl 6.

    And it's not like universal language is that bad. It would come in useful in any number of situations, you get one use essentially free, and you probably won't have to use it more than once per day but if you ever do you can get what is essentially a third level spell for a 1st level spell slot. That's pretty good for a "ribbon".

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Quote Originally Posted by Habber_Dasher View Post
    I like how you guys are complaining about "weak" features on a class that a) can reduce a creatures spell save by an inspiration die, b) will never loose a deception or persuasion check if it doesn't want to, and c) will never "waste" an inspiration after lvl 6.

    And it's not like universal language is that bad. It would come in useful in any number of situations, you get one use essentially free, and you probably won't have to use it more than once per day but if you ever do you can get what is essentially a third level spell for a 1st level spell slot. That's pretty good for a "ribbon".
    Name one that isn't in the two I've already listed then please

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxWolFrostFire View Post
    Name one that isn't in the two I've already listed then please
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but your question is essentially, "when would I use this instead of casting tongues?".

    Well as pointed out you can understand other creatures with comprehend languages, which is a great utility spell in and of itself. So with that in mind I would say almost any situation I would use tongues, but I don't feel like spending a third level slot.

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Quote Originally Posted by Habber_Dasher View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but your question is essentially, "when would I use this instead of casting tongues?".

    Well as pointed out you can understand other creatures with comprehend languages, which is a great utility spell in and of itself. So with that in mind I would say almost any situation I would use tongues, but I don't feel like spending a third level slot.
    Okay my fault for not making the statement more clear but sure burning a feature and a 1st level is better than using a 3rd level and if you stop once an hour you won't waste any slot.
    So we found 2 1/2 usages for this feature. Im counting it as a half because the comprehend language combo is very functionly similar to me suggesting to use the feature to get an okay of casting tongues so I still call it boring and weak ribbon to a over all great subclass...also yes I will complain about the feature I was most interested and excited about not being very good.

    Edit: it also still doesn't help when the creature just can't talk
    Last edited by FoxWolFrostFire; 2020-08-06 at 09:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxWolFrostFire View Post
    Okay my fault for not making the statement more clear but sure burning a feature and a 1st level is better than using a 3rd level and if you stop once an hour you won't waste any slot.
    So we found 2 1/2 usages for this feature. Im counting it as a half because the comprehend language combo is very functionly similar to me suggesting to use the feature to get an okay of casting tongues so I still call it boring and weak ribbon to a over all great subclass...also yes I will complain about the feature I was most interested and excited about not being very good.

    Edit: it also still doesn't help when the creature just can't talk
    I guess we just have different definitions of good? With a ritual that's good to have anyway, you can talk to 90% of the creatures you'd want to talk to, but sure it has only 2.5 uses and is bad and boring. Your entitled to you opinion but that is better than the vast majority of ribbon features and a good number of "core" features. The monk gets that same ability at level 13 for crying out loud.

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Quote Originally Posted by Habber_Dasher View Post
    I guess we just have different definitions of good? With a ritual that's good to have anyway, you can talk to 90% of the creatures you'd want to talk to, but sure it has only 2.5 uses and is bad and boring. Your entitled to you opinion but that is better than the vast majority of ribbon features and a good number of "core" features. The monk gets that same ability at level 13 for crying out loud.
    The very good tongue of sun and moon? The one that is passive and works both ways? Yes that is good and universal speech is much less so.

    This might have to be with my table experience but do you know what happens when I say I ritual cast a spell?

    Okay the party leaves you ten minutes behind explain how you catch up? Or the people who don't understand you see you casting magic and attack.

    Thankfully I will give universal speech this. At least you can try and get permission to cast spells now.
    I'm not saying it doesn't have usage just disappointed in what we got out of it. I shouldn't have called it bad. But it is still a let down.

    Again as the ability I was most excited about. When Warlock and monks get WAY better versions of this feature

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    I mean a bard I DM for used universal speech to persuade some violet fungus to stop attacking everyone which was an interesting application.
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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Great for many charm spells and command type spells.

    My cleric might be able to throw out the command spell, but he only speaks common and elven, there are a lot of critters out there that it would help with.

    It is a ribbon mostly but I like it.

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    Great for many charm spells and command type spells.

    My cleric might be able to throw out the command spell, but he only speaks common and elven, there are a lot of critters out there that it would help with.

    It is a ribbon mostly but I like it.
    That is fair. I can give that point over. Tongues on your self how ever should also solve the same effect, but that one is also a beefier investment.

    Oh. I also thought of a new idea for a Kenku using this to properly speak to his party. That is a nifty thought. Shame they made that MUCH harder todo since they pulled it off of level 3

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    How is this class weak?

    Reducing enemy saves/increasing spell DC is something incredibly rare in 5E, usually found only on rare or legendary Magic Items.

    Yes the speech thing is not so good, but for a ribbon ability, the fact that it enables Suggestion (and Mass Suggestion) or Command on speechless monsters is incredible.

    The capstone is underwhelming and the class can be unexciting, but it is definitely on par with most other Bard Subclasses, I'd put it equal to Glamour, which would be under Lore, but above Valor and Whisper

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Quote Originally Posted by BenTheJester View Post
    How is this class weak?

    Reducing enemy saves/increasing spell DC is something incredibly rare in 5E, usually found only on rare or legendary Magic Items.

    Yes the speech thing is not so good, but for a ribbon ability, the fact that it enables Suggestion (and Mass Suggestion) or Command on speechless monsters is incredible.

    The capstone is underwhelming and the class can be unexciting, but it is definitely on par with most other Bard Subclasses, I'd put it equal to Glamour, which would be under Lore, but above Valor and Whisper
    I dunno, i'd say Eloquence Bard is the top of all Bard sub classes easily.

    So Lore we have
    level 3 - you get more proficiency abilities (you have jack of all trades so its just a half bonus to a few really), Cutting Words as long as the target can hear you and isn't immune to charmed condition, you can use Bardic Inspiration against an attack, ability check or lessen some damage, but attack and ability check can't be known if they have succeeded or not (not like Shield spell for example)
    level 6 - 2 new spells earlier than others (this is the reason you take the sub class).
    level 14 - you can use your Bardic Inspiration to help an ability check (could be useful but you're a Bard, you should be the best at most of these already)

    vs

    Eloquence
    level 3 - all deception and persuasion d20 rolls are treated as a 10 roll or higher plus ability score (so level 5, if you have an 18 Charisma and took your expertise in persuasion and deception, minimum is 20 every roll, even without expertise minimum 17 still great). Also, the amazing Unsettling Words, bonus action using Bardic Inspiration die to take away from next spell save to the target (pretty much all good Bard spells use a spell save DC).
    level 6 - Your Bardic Inspiration is guaranteed to work, encouraging people to use them more often because downside is nothing! Oh and also you get ability to communicate with anything sentient for 1 hour for free once per day (Also, you can do this to up to a number of creatures equal to your Charisma modifier, vs Tongues which is only 1 creature and you can do it from 60ft away vs Tongues being a Touch spell. Easier to calm a possible foe that can't understand you from 60ft away vs going up and touching it usually lol). People seem to be upset with not being able to understand them yourselves but again this is an addition to an already great feature for a Bard, and you can cast Comprehend Languages or just ask them Yes and No questions, they can probably nod or do something else to communicate their responses. Get creative, thats the point of this class.
    level 14 - You're even more Bardier and supportive by seeing your friend successfully use your Bardic Inspiration and then be able to send out another one free of charge. Potentially giving you 5 extra Bardic Inspirations per long rest meaning you can use more for your Unsettling Words.

    So I dunno, Eloquence to me is very Bardcentric where as Lore seems to have a bunch of random things thrown in that don't really have much to do with "Lore" it feels like and is really a 1 trick pony. Is Additional Magic Secrets a great feature? Yes of course, spells are powerful. Is it better than Eloquence Bards being able to drastically improve the chances of a Spell landing on an enemy (Banishment, Hold Monster, Suggestion, etc so many clutch spells) and guaranteeing your persuasion and deceptions never fail? I dunno, personally I don't think so and I know many long times players who agree Lore is overrated. But to each their own i'd say.
    Last edited by TrickeryIsKey; 2022-11-12 at 11:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    We've used it to good effect with my wizard casting comprehend languages and the bard using this, so it doesn't use any spell slots. It also allows spells like command and suggestion to work, both of which should be eloquence bard staples.

    I always take comprehend languages on a wizard, but never take that or tongues on a bard, so I think this is a pretty helpful ribbon.

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

    Don't know why this thread was resurrected but Universal Speech is one of the most powerful ribbon abilities in the game, layered on a Bard subclass that is in the top 3 off all avaliable subclasses for the whole game.

    As many have pointed out, you can make speech intelligible to ANY creature, no restrictions. So it's not just tongues, it's speak with beasts etc. And when you're caught by surprise and needing to pass yourself off, you don't need to cast a spell or something overt, you just talk, and they understand. Unless you play 0 social pillar, this is a very strong ability. Added to the Eloquence bards Save DC nuking ability and you're in business. And generally won't be able to roll less than a 20 on a check to persuade literally any creature by tier 2 or 3. There is a lot of power in that ribbon.

    Especially when combined with the Mind Silver + Unsettling Words + Suggestion with Instrument of the Bards + Silvery Barbs save DC nuke aka "I hope you have legendary resistance or charm immunity or a dice that only rolls 20s"

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    Default Re: Any one else a bit let down by universal speech from the new bard College?

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