Star Trek: Lower Decks

[Palanan]

So, this is apparently out on the CBS streaming service. Reviews are...mixed, to put it mildly, although that's no surprise.

Has anyone seen it yet? I've seen a couple of clips and wasn't especially impressed, although it was nice to see the first Caitian since ST:IV.

[Hopeless]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr4bomaqMTE

Sorry didn't spot your thread until after I posted the above!

[Palanan]

I'm guessing that clip summarizes your views?

I've seen several scenes out of context (although I'm not sure if context would improve them) and I'm not sure what to make of it. It doesn't strike me as remotely funny, and one character's resemblance to a certain DC superhero is hard to shake.

Also, regarding the rank of the main characters....

Spoiler: The Actual Lower Decks

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When I think "lower decks," I think enlisted crew, not officers. Ensigns are the lowest-ranking officers, but they're still part of the command structure.

If I wanted to show the real underbelly of a starship, I'd feature the technicians, chiefs and machinist's mates, the people who are living in the guts of the vessel. I can guarantee you that would be a very different culture from the highfalutin', literate and idealistic senior command crew.

Sadly, that distinction doesn't seem to have occurred to the show's creator here, or perhaps he felt today's audiences wouldn't grasp the difference. Seems like a lost opportunity to me.

[GloatingSwine]

Spoiler: The Actual Lower Decks

Show

When I think "lower decks," I think enlisted crew, not officers. Ensigns are the lowest-ranking officers, but they're still part of the command structure.

Spoiler

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Starfleet only has one enlisted man, Miles O'Brien. Everyone else outranks him. Everyone.


This is actually sort of by design. The original idea was that everyone serving on a spaceship was a trained astronaut and therefore an officer, there simply were no enlisted in Starfleet according to Gene's plan.

[Peelee]

Spoiler

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Starfleet only has one enlisted man, Miles O'Brien. Everyone else outranks him. Everyone.


This is actually sort of by design. The original idea was that everyone serving on a spaceship was a trained astronaut and therefore an officer, there simply were no enlisted in Starfleet according to Gene's plan.

That makes sense, Miles O'Brien is fairly in tune with the aerospace world.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by GloatingSwine
The original idea was that everyone serving on a spaceship was a trained astronaut and therefore an officer, there simply were no enlisted in Starfleet according to Gene's plan.

Interesting. I can see how this would have naturally developed from the astronaut culture of the time.

That said, do you have a reference for this?

Originally Posted by Peelee
*Mileses O’Brien*

Yup, I’m familiar with both of these individuals.

Are you a PBS viewer, or was this a fortunate happenstance of googling?

[Hopeless]

I like the intro, have problems with whats been done about the first episode but it is the first episode so like TNG it could improve.
I just wish they put a bit more effort into the story for the first episode.

Spoiler

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Have Mariner be dumped on that world by the ship that did the first contact.

None of that bat'leth idiocy simply have O'Connell's character come in wistfully mention when he made up his first captain report back when he was a cadet then have a ship power failure cause the ship to come out of warp and before the intro starts you have his reaction swearing "Not again!"

We know from the intro the ship is a piece of junk so have the transporter go on the fritz forcing them to use shuttle pods to head down to the planet.

Introduce the Lower Deck Away Team reveal whilst O'Connell's team are dealing with the Second Contact mission they're to pick up Mariner and her gear and return to the ship.

However O'Connell is bitten forcing the command team to return to the ship to get him to sick bay as quickly as possible whilst the others meet Mariner whose naturally upset at being dumped by her former crew.

We learn she was honoring an agreement made between her captain and the inhabitants which they wasn't planning on doing they merely altered the reports to cover up the fact as they've been trying to get her off the ship because she was actually very career focused until they decided she was a threat to their career interests.

When they find her she's just finished bathing in spider gel basically what she thought was a local tradition intended to fulfill her part of the agreement.
Actually the locals knew her ship wasn't going to honor their agreement so as part of the gifts included a crate of fly larva one of which bit O'Connell's character.
These flies reproduce by infesting a host so by the time they get back to the ship it starts to hatch as they rush him to sickbay and it starts infesting others rapidly.

Managing to close off the infected area a bridge officer contacts the Lower Deck team who get Mariner to ask the locals for help which is when they learn why they got her to bathe in the gel.

Returning to the ship Mariner is avoided by the infected crew and flies because of her exposure manages to reach sickbay where the doctor figures out how to modify it into an airborne gas which she and the others have to rush into a Jeffrey's Tube to introduce it to the air ducts which then spread causing the flies and their hosts to pass out allowing them to be treated.

We learn Mariner was dumped deliberately as putting her aboard her mother's ship violates Starfleet protocol but an urgent distress call from Mariner's former ship forces her mother to put that aside as she orders her ship to lend assistance.

We would then learn the crate with the larva was opened releasing the flies and with the Cericotes the nearest ship and also carrying an antidote its sent to lend assistance cue irony!

Would that have been better than what they released?

Doubtful but maybe the next episode will be much better but its still not as bad as STP ended up.

[GloatingSwine]

Interesting. I can see how this would have naturally developed from the astronaut culture of the time.

That said, do you have a reference for this?

Here you go. Specifically, it comes from the 1968 The Making of Star Trek book.

[Peelee]

Are you a PBS viewer, or was this a fortunate happenstance of googling?

Both, but in this case the latter is more accurate.

[Dire_Flumph]

Reviews have been mixed to poor, so I might be in the minority here, but I enjoyed the first episode a lot more than I was expecting. Worked for me both as a comedy and legitimate Star Trek. Definitely looking forward to more.

*Trying to keep high and dry of specific spoiler territory*

Enjoyed:

-I thought they were going for more of a Red Dwarf vibe from the trailers, but I liked that the four main characters actually seemed *good* at their jobs so the comedy wasn't just a string of cheap shots at their incompetence. I particularly liked that Mariner was an extremely experienced and knowledgeable officer who keeps getting busted down to Ensign due to her inability to take Starfleet life seriously. Her list of things she'd encountered were both funny and very Star Trek. We haven't really had a Trek character like her, and I think she's an interesting character to explore with a lot of potential. Boimler seems like the biggest screw-up, but that mostly seems to come from his over-eagerness to impress. The other two didn't get as much focus in the first episode, but I loved the enthusiasm to compare to Mariner's jadedness. Ensign Tendi in particular was just a joy to watch.

-"The Zeppo" was one of my favorite Buffy episodes, and it looks like that basic type of plot may be commonplace on the show. The main "danger" plot seemed a little more extreme than what we'd see on a regular Trek show thanks to animation, but I like how it was used mostly to introduce us to Tendi and Rutherford rather than be the focus of the narrative.


More Iffy on:

-I think Mariner has a lot of potential, but I kind of hope the performance is toned down a bit, it got a bit annoying at times. I'll have to watch the episode again, but I wasn't sure in the end if she was actually running a Bilko-esque side business selling the farm equipment or if she was replicating extra supplies because she knew those guys and was sure they'd get overlooked by the mission.

-While I like the freedom the show has (and apparently will use) to reference Star Trek shows we're familiar with, it got a bit much by the end where they were literally just listing TOS characters.

-Liked some of the opening title sequence, but the music seemed a bit generic, and some of the Voyager-esque shots work better than others.

Too early to say:

-Really didn't get much of a feel for the "main" characters who actually run the ship, though I liked the Caitian doctor a lot so far. Not fond of the phaser-happy security chief, who seemed like they were going for "Worf, but more so". Jerry O'Connells "HOW MUCH DID I EAT?!" delivery actually got the biggest laugh of the episode out of me.

[Darth Credence]

This is actually the first show that has made me consider using a free trial of CBS, and the bad reviews are disappointing. I'm sure I'll use the trial for The Stand, and watch this at the same time. Flumph, I hope you can update us after a few more episodes are done.

[Psyren]

We watched the first. It felt a bit... uh... manic? Which isn't really what I associate with Star Trek, but then, I get the impression that the Cerritos is not really a shining example of Starfleet's finest to begin with.

There weren't many laugh-out-loud moments for me. The extended sequence where Boimler was

Spoiler

Show

essentially molested by a giant space-spider-cow

was probably intended to be funny but it went on way too long for me.

I'll give it a fair shake (four episode rule) and have a more detailed reaction then. So far though, none of the characters have really grabbed me. Maybe the Caitian cat-doctor.

EDIT: Apparently Polygon did get to see the first 4 episodes, and their review is not giving me a particularly fuzzy feeling about what I'm in for.

[Ramza00]

I have not watched Rick and Morty and have no interest to do so since Rick seems to have no redeeming qualities a Villain Protagonist, and I am just tired of that energy since 2013 (Breaking Bad ended this for me. I enjoyed Bojack Horseman but I stopped Season 6 midway through for I was tired of this same energy.)

I see one of the Rick and Morty people is the show creator for Lower Decks, so my question is will I enjoy this show if I am tired of this "Prestige TV format" that is trying to make sympathetic to villians / anti-heroes?

To be more specific I am complaining about stories telling a nihilistic tale that is vapid yet is temporary entertaining for the people are having fun being awful? I want to watch hopeful Star Trek even if it has critiques (I adore DS9), I also enjoy other hopeful things like She-Ra. Rick and Morty is pretty much the opposite of these energies that I like, crave during these times we live in.


-----

Talks about a DS9 episode

I'm guessing that clip summarizes your views?

I've seen several scenes out of context (although I'm not sure if context would improve them) and I'm not sure what to make of it. It doesn't strike me as remotely funny, and one character's resemblance to a certain DC superhero is hard to shake.

Also, regarding the rank of the main characters....

Spoiler: The Actual Lower Decks

Show

When I think "lower decks," I think enlisted crew, not officers. Ensigns are the lowest-ranking officers, but they're still part of the command structure.

If I wanted to show the real underbelly of a starship, I'd feature the technicians, chiefs and machinist's mates, the people who are living in the guts of the vessel. I can guarantee you that would be a very different culture from the highfalutin', literate and idealistic senior command crew.

Sadly, that distinction doesn't seem to have occurred to the show's creator here, or perhaps he felt today's audiences wouldn't grasp the difference. Seems like a lost opportunity to me.

Spoiler: Valiant, season 6 episode 22 of DS9

Show

There is an episode of DS9 where Nog and Jake Sisko are rescued by a team of cadets called "Red Squad." This team is supposed to be a certain type of politics where you have a worship of leader and a cult like hiearchy, yadda, yadda, yadda.

But this team is not even Ensigns they are still cadets in training yet they command a Defiant type class starship for they were using a minimal crew and all the senior officers with actual rank died during an attack and thus the head cadet was made an honorary captain as a battlefield commision. Nog (ensign) and Jake (a civilian) are rescued and Nog does not take over the ship (under British maritane law this makes sense, but other cultures this would not make sense) and instead worships these people temporary till the end of the episode.

...

Well originally in rough drafts of this episode it was not going to be Jake but instead Major Kira who is not a part of Starfleet, who is a military officer (and former terrorist) but only has a Bajoran rank. They, the writers, realized this does not work for the intended emotional effect on the audience for technically this situation was still possible but Kira would not have tolerated so many bad decisions by this cadet crew. Likewise it could have been Chief O Brien instead of Kira for he too had no rank in the command structure, but the writers once again realized this would not work. Sure Chief has no military rank but part of having a starship is the command crew must recognize and respect the technical people who make the ship work. Thus it was replaced by Jake Sisko who is an 18 or 19 year old boy if I recall correctly and was a Journalist / Writer to make this episode work.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

I did happen to see this and agree with most that the first episode did not live up to the hype. As I see it another failed show for Star Trek. As to my own issues well simply it wasn't funny. This to me seemed like a water down version of Rick and Morty while also being a bad paradoy of this. So if I wanted to watch Rick and Morty I would go watch that instead.

Also I couldn't help but notice the very similar set up this took almost mimicing the Orville in terms of plot and even a fair number of characters. But in all not worth it or worth a subscription to a streaming servie just for this.

[Peelee]

I have not watched Rick and Morty and have no interest to do so since Rick seems to have no redeeming qualities a Villain Protagonist, and I am just tired of that energy since 2013 (Breaking Bad ended this for me.

If you haven't seen Better Call Saul for this reason, I wholly recommend checking it out, because he absolutely does have redeeming qualities as a villain protagonist!

[Dire_Flumph]

I have not watched Rick and Morty and have no interest to do so since Rick seems to have no redeeming qualities a Villain Protagonist, and I am just tired of that energy since 2013 (Breaking Bad ended this for me. I enjoyed Bojack Horseman but I stopped Season 6 midway through for I was tired of this same energy.)

I see one of the Rick and Morty people is the show creator for Lower Decks, so my question is will I enjoy this show if I am tired of this "Prestige TV format" that is trying to make sympathetic to villians / anti-heroes?

To be more specific I am complaining about stories telling a nihilistic tale that is vapid yet is temporary entertaining for the people are having fun being awful? I want to watch hopeful Star Trek even if it has critiques (I adore DS9), I also enjoy other hopeful things like She-Ra. Rick and Morty is pretty much the opposite of these energies that I like, crave during these times we live in.

My take only, but "Rick and Morty but Star Trek" was one of the fears I have for the show and it doesn't seem to be the case so far. Ensign Mariner would be closest, like Rick she's smart and uses that intelligence to to push an "I'm smarter than everything else so nothing matters" attitude. Unlike Rick, she doesn't seem to actually be the smartest in the room (and would probably be unremarkable at best on a ship like the Enterprise). She also doesn't take it to Rick's nihilistic extremes and isn't as socially inept. She also doesn't come across as an out and out villain. As I mentioned above, I wasn't 100% on whether she was selling Federation equipment to the locals, but my take (which I'd need to rewatch to confirm) was that she was just replicating extra supplies to farmers that had been overlooked by the previous Federation starship.

Otherwise, the core cast leans very hard into the optimism for the future narrative that has been a cornerstone of Star Trek. The bridge officers come off as jerks at times in the episode, but not anywhere near the level of being awful people on the level of the "Rick and Morty" or "Bojack Horseman" characters.

[Silfir]

There is a Voyager episode in which Janeway decides to devote some of her time to the three "worst" members of her crew. One of whom was a Bajoran ensign who graduated the Academy by the narrowest of margins and is convinced she scraped by for political reasons. It seems she's supposed to man the sensor station while on duty, but she's kind of rubbish at even that. (It laters turns out that she's exceptional at keeping a cool head during a crisis thanks to her experience in the Cardassian Occupation, so you'd think Tuvok would have some use for her in Security.)

She is the same rank as Harry Kim, who is Chief of Operations and one of the senior officers, which means he takes orders from the captain or the first officer or other senior officers if they happen to be in command, and frequently is given command of the entire ship (usually during the "night" shift). The official reason why never gets promoted past Ensign is simply that there is no need; his position on the ship wouldn't be affected by it. Under normal circumstances, it's quite likely he would have been promoted immediately upon returning from his stint on Voyager, having been given a glowing recommendation from Janeway.

It seems rank has more to do with service time than ability. Even the most talented of Academy graduates who would be wasted serving in a junior role (like Harry) still start their Starfleet career proper as Ensign. Any Starfleet officer who serves adequately for a number of years is probably going to make Lieutenant and remain there unless they display some sort of exceptional ability. There is an episode that demonstrates this perfectly - the one in which Picard experiences an alternate timeline in which he didn't have a life-threatening injury that made him re-evaluate his life choices, and discovers he becomes the sort of "Lower Decks" lieutenant that the senior staff is barely aware of, let alone will listen to.

[Peelee]

There is a Voyager episode in which Janeway decides to devote some of her time to the three "worst" members of her crew. One of whom was a Bajoran ensign who graduated the Academy by the narrowest of margins and is convinced she scraped by for political reasons. It seems she's supposed to man the sensor station while on duty, but she's kind of rubbish at even that. (It laters turns out that she's exceptional at keeping a cool head during a crisis thanks to her experience in the Cardassian Occupation, so you'd think Tuvok would have some use for her in Security.)

She is the same rank as Harry Kim, who is Chief of Operations and one of the senior officers, which means he takes orders from the captain or the first officer or other senior officers if they happen to be in command, and frequently is given command of the entire ship (usually during the "night" shift). The official reason why never gets promoted past Ensign is simply that there is no need; his position on the ship wouldn't be affected by it. Under normal circumstances, it's quite likely he would have been promoted immediately upon returning from his stint on Voyager, having been given a glowing recommendation from Janeway.

It seems rank has more to do with service time than ability. Even the most talented of Academy graduates who would be wasted serving in a junior role (like Harry) still start their Starfleet career proper as Ensign. Any Starfleet officer who serves adequately for a number of years is probably going to make Lieutenant and remain there unless they display some sort of exceptional ability. There is an episode that demonstrates this perfectly - the one in which Picard experiences an alternate timeline in which he didn't have a life-threatening injury that made him re-evaluate his life choices, and discovers he becomes the sort of "Lower Decks" lieutenant that the senior staff is barely aware of, let alone will listen to.

Harry Kim was famously an Ensign for a lengthy stretch of Voyager, which made his status as "one of the senior officers" and "night shift acting captain" super weird.

[Dire_Flumph]

Harry Kim was famously an Ensign for a lengthy stretch of Voyager, which made his status as "one of the senior officers" and "night shift acting captain" super weird.

If you haven't seen sfdebris reviews of Voyager, they're hilarious. The view of Janeway as a megalomaniacal dictator who kept Harry Kim on the bridge as her personal chew toy makes so much more sense.

Edit: Honestly, Harry Kim is pretty much a microcosm of Voyager's problems. They took a good idea from the episode "Lower Decks" and realized that a character that functioned as a look into an "Upstairs/Downstairs" view of a starship would be a great vehicle for storytelling. Then they probably realized Harry would need an entire secondary cast for him to do his actual interactions with, got lazy, and made him functionally identical to any other bridge officer.

[JadedDM]

Just watched it, and granted, it's only a single episode, but I liked it better than I thought. Lots of little references to older Star Treks, some more subtle than others. Good animation, great voice acting, and while not every joke landed, I'd say enough of them did to make the episode funny.

[Velaryon]

From the little clips I've seen so far it looks less like Star Trek than it does a bad parody of same. Learning that it's from one of the Rick and Morty creators both explains this feeling and cements my lack of interest in seeing more.

[Dienekes]

I have not watched Rick and Morty and have no interest to do so since Rick seems to have no redeeming qualities a Villain Protagonist, and I am just tired of that energy since 2013 (Breaking Bad ended this for me. I enjoyed Bojack Horseman but I stopped Season 6 midway through for I was tired of this same energy.)

I see one of the Rick and Morty people is the show creator for Lower Decks, so my question is will I enjoy this show if I am tired of this "Prestige TV format" that is trying to make sympathetic to villians / anti-heroes?

To be more specific I am complaining about stories telling a nihilistic tale that is vapid yet is temporary entertaining for the people are having fun being awful? I want to watch hopeful Star Trek even if it has critiques (I adore DS9), I also enjoy other hopeful things like She-Ra. Rick and Morty is pretty much the opposite of these energies that I like, crave during these times we live

Huh. This is a bit interesting. Since my take away from Rick and Morty was more or less the opposite of yours. While yes, Rick has sympathetic moments, he’s still human. But the writers seem hellbent on pointing out that Rick is a broken, selfish, irredeemable garbage person who continuously fails to self actualize and the rest of his family would be better off without. I’ve pretty much always taken it as a condemnation of the prestige anti-hero.

Anyway. Watched 2 episodes of this Lower Deck. Was not particularly impressed. And dropped it. So far the rest of this thread has not convinced me I’ve missed out on anything.

[MCerberus]

I think I'm incapable of giving these shows a chance because it seems like ever since the reboot movies it's always been "It's X but set in Star Trek", and they refuse to make STAR TREK in the Star Trek universe. I don't want a Clancy thriller staring Picard. I don't want prestige TV dramas where they bring in old characters just to make you forget they forgot it has nothing to say.

I want to have to sit and think about how dirty one's hands have to get defending utopia. I want to see these characters grow to face the unknown. I want people in spaceship sets making me reflect on my own existence as if guided by the hand of the ghost of Rod Serling. I want Star Trek to try, to try so hard you want to see the next installment even if the last one ended by dropping a bridge on top of a main character. There is more light and humanity in Orville than Trek these days.

[JadedDM]

For those turned off by the Rick and Morty aspect, my roommate, who dislikes Rick and Morty and had no interest in Solar Opposites but is a big Star Trek fan watched the episode with me, and claimed it was great. So there's that.

[Silfir]

There is more light and humanity in Orville than Trek these days.

I just started watching The Orville, following up on a binge of Deep Space Nine and then Voyager. Felt right at home. It really feels like a diehard Trekkie fulfilling his childhood dream, which is very likely exactly what it is.

[CharonsHelper]

For those turned off by the Rick and Morty aspect, my roommate, who dislikes Rick and Morty and had no interest in Solar Opposites but is a big Star Trek fan watched the episode with me, and claimed it was great. So there's that.

I caught a couple random episodes of Rick & Morty and thought they were kinda funny. Then I went out of my way to watch a few more and realized that they were all pretty much the same nihilistic tone (basically the outsider/edgy teenager who thinks he's deep and smarter than everyone else because he likes to read sci-fi), and now I'm over it. Probably the fastest I ever burned out on a show: took 5-6ish episodes.

I was planning to potentially grab the free CBS pass for a bit to watch a different show. Sounds like I'll have something else to try out when I do, though I might not get all the references. I liked used to like TNG a lot, but I never got that into the others; just watched a smattering of Voyager & Enterprise.

[Pex]

I would have been interested if 1)tt was live action not a cartoon and 2) a sci-fi drama, not a comedy.

The Next Generation episode about this was a good one. It is an interesting perspective to explore, and they blew it.
They don't know how to do Star Trek anymore, and I include the new movies.

[Cikomyr2]

I would have been interested if 1)tt was live action not a cartoon and 2) a sci-fi drama, not a comedy.

The Next Generation episode about this was a good one. It is an interesting perspective to explore, and they blew it.
They don't know how to do Star Trek anymore, and I include the new movies.

So you would have been interested if that show had be something completely different than what its trying to be.

Yhea, I get that. In the same vein, I suppose I would have liked True Blood if it hadn't been about vampires and it was more of a game show.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Pex
They don't know how to do Star Trek anymore, and I include the new movies.

Right there with you. I tried watching Into Darkness a few days ago, and it was such a ludicrous mess I quit halfway through.

The one exception I'm willing to consider is Picard, which I haven't seen yet. I have high hopes for that one. But otherwise--I've been catching reruns of TNG on BBC America, and while they have their hokey moments, the spirit of both inner and outer exploration is still there. That's been notably absent from the franchise in recent years.

[Psyren]

I liked Picard, though I liked it better when it wasn't trying to be Mass Effect. But the various TNG callbacks and cameos did get me to squee.