Star Trek: Lower Decks

[Peelee]

I liked Picard, though I liked it better when it wasn't trying to be Mass Effect. But the various TNG callbacks and cameos did get me to squee.

I haven't seen Mass Effect, so this is just a guess, but I still think I'd agree with all of this.

[Palanan]

Re: Lower Decks, I really like the concept of "second contact," which is apparently what the Cerritos tends to do.

If done thoughtfully, it allows for a more anthropological approach to alien cultures, for exploring nuances of thought and culture which might not reveal themselves during a first contact. (Exceptions like Darmok aside, of course.) Instead of alien-planet-of-the-week, it would allow for one "second contact" per season, giving the ship and crew more time to become familiar with the new species and culture(s), with the opportunity for a whole range of storylines in the context of a barely-understood alien species. That could make for some excellent character development alongside more detailed alien cultures than we usually see in any show.

Unfortunately, a thoughtful approach to alien culture doesn't seem to be the focus for Lower Decks, and in any case it would need a live-action series to do the concept justice. But I'd rather watch that than yet another prequel series, or yet another war with the Klingons.

[tomandtish]

Huh. This is a bit interesting. Since my take away from Rick and Morty was more or less the opposite of yours. While yes, Rick has sympathetic moments, he’s still human. But the writers seem hellbent on pointing out that Rick is a broken, selfish, irredeemable garbage person who continuously fails to self actualize and the rest of his family would be better off without. I’ve pretty much always taken it as a condemnation of the prestige anti-hero.

Anyway. Watched 2 episodes of this Lower Deck. Was not particularly impressed. And dropped it. So far the rest of this thread has not convinced me I’ve missed out on anything.

Are you somewhere other than USA? They've only released one episode here (releasing every Thursday).

[Pex]

So you would have been interested if that show had be something completely different than what its trying to be.

Yhea, I get that. In the same vein, I suppose I would have liked True Blood if it hadn't been about vampires and it was more of a game show.

Um, yes? The nerve of me not wanting to watch a show because I don't like its premise.

[JadedDM]

Anyway, here's some rampant speculation:

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Lower Decks is a comedy. And what were the funniest episodes of Star Trek? The Q episodes! How long do you reckon before they bring in John de Lancie to voice his old character?

[Dienekes]

Are you somewhere other than USA? They've only released one episode here (releasing every Thursday).

Nope, I may in fact be full of ****. Yeah, I only saw one episode. Literally yesterday.

I have absolutely no idea why I thought I watched two.

[Psyren]

Anyway, here's some rampant speculation:

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Lower Decks is a comedy. And what were the funniest episodes of Star Trek? The Q episodes! How long do you reckon before they bring in John de Lancie to voice his old character?

I'd rather they bring in a new Q if they go that route. JDL's Q didn't show up for Picard (yet), and that's the most likely place I'd expect to see him return.

(Ideally, in order to

Spoiler: Picard ending

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retcon that ridiculous "I'm an old-man cyborg now" thing.)

.

[Dire_Flumph]

Nope, I may in fact be full of ****. Yeah, I only saw one episode. Literally yesterday.

I have absolutely no idea why I thought I watched two.

I get it. After giving Westworld season 2 a second chance tonight, I finished what I thought was two episodes to realize I'd only made it through one so far. Decided to cut my losses after that. I just liked season 1 so much.

[Hopeless]

There was a clip about the second episode if that helps.

Liked the intro the story is awful, but maybe just maybe like TNG it actually improves?

[Kitten Champion]

The whole "TNG improved so why can't other series" argument rings hollow to me.

Not that television series and other media can't improve from weak beginnings - obviously they can - but because TNG becoming not-awful wasn't the result of some inevitable natural growth. The universe didn't suddenly mystically realign to make the show better all of a sudden, what happened was they got rid of (most) of the people who were actively dragging the show down into insufferable sanctimonious tedium and brought in a new show-runner and writers who turned the show around. From season 3 and on TNG was an entirely new show in most respects.

A similar-ish argument can be made for Enterprise in season 4, though the fields were well and truly salted at that point and Manny Coto could only do so much.

DS9 is much more emblematic of a series - Trek or otherwise - which improved notably under the same creative staff. However, season 1 of DS9 really wasn't that bad and definitely showed the potential the spin-off series could have despite some painful jagged edges.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
...what happened was they got rid of (most) of the people who were actively dragging the show down into insufferable sanctimonious tedium and brought in a new show-runner and writers who turned the show around.

Can you recommend a source that goes into this process in detail?

[GloatingSwine]

I liked Picard, though I liked it better when it wasn't trying to be Mass Effect. But the various TNG callbacks and cameos did get me to squee.

I dunno, I kinda liked that it relitigated the central conflict of Mass Effect but it wasn't dumb and it was resolved by Picard convincing someone to do the morally right thing not multicoloured space magic.

[MikelaC1]

I liked Picard, though I liked it better when it wasn't trying to be Mass Effect. But the various TNG callbacks and cameos did get me to squee.

The various TNG call backs and cameos were the only things I liked about that show, the rest of it was rather boring and disjointed.

[Dire_Flumph]

The various TNG call backs and cameos were the only things I liked about that show, the rest of it was rather boring and disjointed.

I think one of the reasons the TNG cameos in Picard were so satisfying was that Nemesis was a truly awful place to leave the characters.

The Undiscovered Country was a mostly satisfying conclusion and wrap up to the original characters, and subsequent appearances did nothing to dull that. Same with What We Leave Behind (or All Good Things if they had just left it there).

But with Picard, we got some closure on Data that wasn't just the implied reset button with B4. We saw that challenges aside, Riker and Troi worked out fine (and it took 30 years, but we got to see Troi as an *effective* counselor). I'm mixed bag on the rest, but this is how to do reintroducing older characters into a sequel story.

[Psyren]

I dunno, I kinda liked that it relitigated the central conflict of Mass Effect but it wasn't dumb and it was resolved by Picard convincing someone to do the morally right thing not multicoloured space magic.

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Was it resolved though? Picard's "Reapers" are still out there, a sword of Damocles hanging over the setting that nobody even hinted at before. Talking down Soji was a good Picard moment, but it won't stop the next embattled AI from deciding to activate the relay to dark space build a beacon. Whatever ME's other faults, at least it dealt with the central problem, one way or another.

I get it. After giving Westworld season 2 a second chance tonight, I finished what I thought was two episodes to realize I'd only made it through one so far. Decided to cut my losses after that. I just liked season 1 so much.

If you skip out on Westworld, well, your loss. I found its synthetic/organic conflict very compelling.

[Kitten Champion]

Can you recommend a source that goes into this process in detail?

Much of the details to the... problematic first two seasons are in various interviews and behind-the-scenes books.

This Youtube video series goes over much of the rockiness in the initial seasons.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
*behind-the-scenes books*

Can you recommend a title or two?

[Kitten Champion]

Can you recommend a title or two?

Honestly I've only read the one -- albeit spread into two volumes. The Fifty-Year Mission by Edward Gross. The first volume is largely about TOS and the movies while the second follows TNG and the series that followed it more explicitly. It's not bad if you're specifically interested in television and movie production side of things. It is a comprehensive work with a positive glut of interviews with those on every level of the industry through all the Trek productions up to Abrams' entry.

That said, I haven't read others so I don't have lot of room for judgements here.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
Honestly I've only read the one -- albeit spread into two volumes. The Fifty-Year Mission by Edward Gross. The first volume is largely about TOS and the movies while the second follows TNG and the series that followed it more explicitly. It's not bad if you're specifically interested in television and movie production side of things. It is a comprehensive work with a positive glut of interviews with those on every level of the industry through all the Trek productions up to Abrams' entry.

Outstanding, thanks. I walked right by this one in my library a few days ago, sounds like it's worth going back for.

[Iku Rex]

I quite like this so far.

[DeadMech]

It's pretty interesting. Mostly just for being a CBS owned star trek brand animated space quest. I didn't know I wanted a non serious star trek but here I am enjoying this.

Boimler gets treated a bit more like a butt monkey than I would prefer. Mariner being the disobedient kid of two higher ranking starfleet officers is interesting. There is a legit chance at an interesting character arc here exploring the relationship between conforming to regulations and adaptation to changing circumstances.

Tendi has a really great moment in the first episode. Introduced to the albeit modest lower deck bunks on her first day aboard a vessel she looks out a window overlooking the aft of the ship in warp and is mesmerized by the awe of the sight. This above everything else I think captures something about the Star Trek setting. Yeah your ship is prolly gonna get overrun by rage virus zombies and your diplomatic escort missions are going to end up babysitting and chasing after a drunk klingon ambassador but regardless it's still aspirational and a place you would want to be.

Rutherford also has several nice moments as he's bouncing around the various occupations of the ship. Probably the most promising and talented crewman of the bunch all of his superior officers are very wholesome about wanting him to be happy and finding what he really loves. Again touching on that aspirational aspect of the Trek franchise about a world where people do what they do because it gives them deep satisfaction and a sense of self betterment rather than more mundane concerns.

Is this the best thing on television ever? No but I think it's something I can continue.

[Trafalgar]

I saw the first episode on youtube and the second at a friend's house. For all the hate and vitriol by you tube reviewers, I found it to be mediocre. Not engaging but not the worst thing ever. A couple of thoughts:

Trolling the Hardcore Trekkers:I think I heard 10,000 Cosplay Vulcans scream when Mariner said "Romulan Whiskey" at the beginning of Episode 1. When I hear little canon discontinuities like this in "Lower Decks", I think the show writers are poking fun at the kind of superfans who took issue with holograms on "Star Trek: Discovery".

On Parodies: Star Trek Parodies have existed as long as there has been Star Trek. Belushi did one on Saturday Night Live in the 70s. I remember during the first season of ST:TNG, Mad Magazine came out with a parody issue that renamed "Riker" to "Re-Kirk" and had Jean Luc saying "We can travel the stars at warp speed but we can't cure Male Pattern Baldness". So I think fans who take issue with an in-universe parody are off.

I think the real problem is that short, 5 minute in-universe parodies like on Robot Chicken work really well. An in-universe parody made up of ten 25 minute episodes is difficult because things can get too ridiculous.

Characters: I think, with the Mariner/Boimler relationship, the show writers are going for an odd couple relationship like Lister and Rimmer on "Red Dwarf". But where Lister was a lovable alcoholic slob, Mariner could be an effective officer but isn't for some reason. (Teenage Rebellion? I don't know). She has been court martialed before, possibly several times. Military organizations usually kick you out at some point. The end of episode one gave me the impression that she is still in because her daddy the Admiral is pulling strings. ST:TNG did the rebellious ensign before with Ro Laren who was a much more interesting character. So from my point of view, Mariner not being likable is a big problem with the series.

Boimler seems only to exist to make Mariner look better and be her straight man. During Episode 2, I found cyborg boy and orion girl to be more interesting than the main characters.

Overall, the show isn't that funny. It got a few chuckles in some places, particularly the Klingon General in episode 2, but I rolled my eyes at many of the jokes. I definitely won't be signing up for CBS All Access to watch it.

[Palanan]

I watched the first episode on YouTube, and it was just awful.

Apart from the issues already mentioned, watching it was actively unpleasant. The character voices are stuck on Permanent Hyper, with Mariner by far the worst of all, and sitting through that for half an hour wasn’t enjoyable.

And I didn’t find it remotely funny. The opening accident with the bat’leth was too graphic to be humorous—all I was thinking was how painful that would be. Unless the showrunners want me to be laughing at a severe injury, that was a badly failed attempt at humor. And given that Mariner was drunk on illegal liquor when that happened, it strains credibility that she wasn’t confined to the brig—or, given her record, demoted to a yeoman and reassigned somewhere planetside.

The rest of it is hardly worth any detailed discussion. This is one of those shows where all the scenes with the slightest glimmer of potential were shown in the previews, so anyone who doesn’t like what they see in the previews won’t find anything more in the first full episode. I certainly wouldn’t pay a bent kopek to watch this.

The one thing I like is the design of the ship, which is an interesting addition to the vast array of Federation starship configurations. In a live-action series with a cast and premise pitched at a more serious level, the ship design wouldn’t be out of place. But given the context, it’s simply wasted potential, which is a generous description of the first episode itself.

[Psyren]

Boimler seems only to exist to make Mariner look better and be her straight man.

This. I found her thesis statement in e2 of "Starfleet needs uncool and less useful nerds like you too, Boimier, it can't all be awesome people like me!" to be actively obnoxious and a very weird fit for Star Trek of all possible properties. This show feels like if the Orville writers had just been allowed to use Roddenberry's IP. And in the episode itself, when he feels discouraged by his repeated failures and considers quitting Starfleet - the situation that makes him reconsider is entirely and rather patronizingly orchestrated by Mariner herself.

Mariner has a lot of potential to be interesting - a disillusioned prodigy and scion of Starfleet military leadership with a disproportionate amount of experience/exposure for her age - but you could swap her out with any privileged and disaffected douchebro coasting on their parent's station/wealth and it wouldn't change a thing about her character. Progressive in a sense, but jarring for starfleet and a questionable choice for main character.

[Silfir]

This show feels like if the Orville writers had just been allowed to use Roddenberry's IP.

Okay, I'm not sure the two of us watched the same Orville, because from where I'm sitting that sounds like a recipe for success.

[Palanan]

I never thought I'd say this, but I think Orville is truer to the spirit of Trek than this crud.

And I'm not someone who's that impressed with Orville. It started out as a hilarious parody, but once they veered into more serious territory their attempts at social commentary became muddled at best. Add in some behind-the-scenes drama which affected casting, and Orville has been uneven in spades.

That said, at its infrequent best Orville manages to be a lighthearted echo of TNG, and they had a couple episodes in the second season which could easily have been part of TNG's run. Occasionally they get it right, although for me it's been diluted by the crudity and ludicrous behavior of many characters.

But at least with Orville, you know what you're getting up front. Lower Decks has higher expectations to meet because it's set in a deliberately high-minded universe, and the tone of the show clashes too strongly with everything that's been established in earlier series.

Whatever its faults, at its heart Orville is an affectionate homage to TNG. But Lower Decks, unfortunately, comes across as a painfully juvenile middle finger. The showrunners claim they love Trek, yadda yadda, but I haven't seen much evidence of that in the actual show, and I have no interest in sifting through all the coarse sand in hopes of a few stray flecks of gold.

[Peelee]

[The Orville] started out as a hilarious parody

I wish I could say even that much. Lower Decks is pretty much the bottom of the Star Trek barrel, but the one thing it has going for it is a distinct lack of Seth McFarlane.

Other than that, I do agree with your first statement.

Okay, I'm not sure the two of us watched the same Orville, because from where I'm sitting that sounds like a recipe for success.

I can't speak for Psyren, but there's a difference between watching The Orville and liking The Orville. I did the former a couple of times. I never did the latter.

[Psyren]

I wish I could say even that much. Lower Decks is pretty much the bottom of the Star Trek barrel, but the one thing it has going for it is a distinct lack of Seth McFarlane.
...
I can't speak for Psyren, but there's a difference between watching The Orville and liking The Orville. I did the former a couple of times. I never did the latter.

You certainly can and do speak for me in this post

I have nothing against Seth as a person, but watching the Orville (and failed attempts to rewatch Family Guy/American Dad, more recently) have convinced me that I've more or less outgrown his brand of humor.

[Peelee]

You certainly can and do speak for me in this post

I have nothing against Seth as a person, but watching the Orville (and failed attempts to rewatch Family Guy/American Dad, more recently) have convinced me that I've more or less outgrown his brand of humor.

I may have been a bit overgeneralizing there. I have nothing against Seth McFarlane as a person, but I have yet to see something he made that I enjoyed. Conversely, just as an example, I do dislike Ricky Gervais as a person, but I'll watch every damn thing that man makes because he's a comedic genius and has yet to disappoint.

[tomandtish]

Trolling the Hardcore Trekkers:I think I heard 10,000 Cosplay Vulcans scream when Mariner said "Romulan Whiskey" at the beginning of Episode 1. When I hear little canon discontinuities like this in "Lower Decks", I think the show writers are poking fun at the kind of superfans who took issue with holograms on "Star Trek: Discovery".

Which is funny, because there's nothing to indicate it is a discontinuity. No one has said that Romulan Ale doesn't still exist. It seems silly to me to think Romulans only have one type of alcohol.