Star Trek: Lower Decks

[Dire_Flumph]

I may have been a bit overgeneralizing there. I have nothing against Seth McFarlane as a person, but I have yet to see something he made that I enjoyed. Conversely, just as an example, I do dislike Ricky Gervais as a person, but I'll watch every damn thing that man makes because he's a comedic genius and has yet to disappoint.

I will say I'm not a big fan of the Orville, but Seth Macfarlane's clear enthusiasm about the project makes it more enjoyable for me to watch.

And his take on Emperor Palpatine for Robot Chicken is freakin hilarious.

Other than that, yeah. Seems like a nice guy and all, but not my taste in comedy.

[Peelee]

Which is funny, because there's nothing to indicate it is a discontinuity. No one has said that Romulan Ale doesn't still exist. It seems silly to me to think Romulans only have one type of alcohol.

Imean, Klingons, an entire warrior culture, have only one type of weapon...

I will say I'm not a big fan of the Orville, but Seth Macfarlane's clear enthusiasm about the project makes it more enjoyable for me to watch.

And his take on Emperor Palpatine for Robot Chicken is freakin hilarious.

Other than that, yeah. Seems like a nice guy and all, but not my taste in comedy.

Don't get me wrong, nothing against people who like McFarlane and more power to him if he can make a good living off what he does (especially if he actively enjoys it). Just not my cup o' tea.

Of course, even knowing comedy is subjective, I still am upset at the fact that Albert Brooks isn't anywhere near as big as he deserves to be. That dude can do no wrong, but never really made it out of the B-list.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Peelee
I have nothing against Seth McFarlane as a person, but I have yet to see something he made that I enjoyed.

With the marginal exception of Orville, I’m pretty much with you here. I’d barely heard of him before the Orville, but after briefly sampling some of his other entries it’s safe to say he’s not my kind of funny.

Originally Posted by tomandtish
No one has said that Romulan Ale doesn't still exist.

I just assumed that Mariner was drunk enough that she confused “ale” and “whiskey.” Seems like just another dud of a joke, rather than “trolling superfans” as a previous poster suggested.

[Peelee]

This. I found her thesis statement in e2 of "Starfleet needs uncool and less useful nerds like you too, Boimier, it can't all be awesome people like me!" to be actively obnoxious and a very weird fit for Star Trek of all possible properties. This show feels like if the Orville writers had just been allowed to use Roddenberry's IP. And in the episode itself, when he feels discouraged by his repeated failures and considers quitting Starfleet - the situation that makes him reconsider is entirely and rather patronizingly orchestrated by Mariner herself.

Forgot to address this earlier.

That's even worse than you're making it out to be, because Boimler immediately proceeds to relentlessly pick Mariner, which is how we discover it is well received among the crew entirely due to how painfully obvious the situation was. Which means even under ideal conditions specifically engineered for Boimler, he was only able to succeed on the most basic possible premise.

He really should quit Starfleet.

[Trafalgar]

Conversely, just as an example, I do dislike Ricky Gervais as a person, but I'll watch every damn thing that man makes because he's a comedic genius and has yet to disappoint.

If you want to want something funny, look up Ricky Gervais and Patrick Stewart on "Extras".

[Peelee]

If you want to want something funny, look up Ricky Gervais and Patrick Stewart on "Extras".

Whenever I try to get someone to watch Extras, or even talk about it in general, the agent in Patrick Stewart's trailer is always my go-to.

[Dragonus45]

So I finally decided to give this a shot. Barely made it through the first episode and just put it back down again.

[AdmiralCheez]

I managed to watch the first episode that they put on YouTube as well. It may have potential some time in the future, but it's not worth a CBS subscription to me. It just kinda felt... generic. Like it could have been set in any sci-fi universe and it wouldn't be any different. Actually, it felt like a parody of Star Trek, but somehow got permission to use the license.

I know the creator has said he's a fan making a show for the fans, but these days, it feels like "making something for the fans" really just means they put in a few Easter egg references to other, better works, and call it a day. It happened with Star Wars, and it's happening here too. They just don't understand what people actually liked about the original things, and don't get the tone right or anything. Everything just seems so hyper, and they all forget about quiet time.

I'll probably come back as the show finishes its season and reevaluate whether it's worth a watch based on the general opinion, but right now I'm giving it a pass. I hope it's just a case of a lazy first episode, and they find a good footing later. The potential is there for something that could be good. They just need to get there.

[Psyren]

Forgot to address this earlier.

That's even worse than you're making it out to be, because Boimler immediately proceeds to relentlessly pick Mariner, which is how we discover it is well received among the crew entirely due to how painfully obvious the situation was. Which means even under ideal conditions specifically engineered for Boimler, he was only able to succeed on the most basic possible premise.

He really should quit Starfleet.

Neither of them should be there imo. Boimler is straight up incompetent (he seems to nearly get himself killed on multiple occasions every time he leaves the Cerritos, and doesn't seem to accomplish much while there either.) And while Mariner might be improbably skilled at... well, every single starship role/task we see her attempt, she's just an awful person. We've seen cocky Starfleet protagonists before (Hey Kirk) , but he at least knew how to inspire those around him and use their strengths. Granted, it's not like she's going for the captain's chair any time soon, but the show appears to be implying that she could easily be an officer if she only applied herself; realizing she has what it takes may be the arc they're going for, but her flaws go much deeper than merely being a slacker.

[DigoDragon]

It may have potential some time in the future, but it's not worth a CBS subscription to me. It just kinda felt... generic. Like it could have been set in any sci-fi universe and it wouldn't be any different. Actually, it felt like a parody of Star Trek, but somehow got permission to use the license.

Yeah, I agree about the generic part. While not a great pilot episode, it wasn't terrible either. It was somewhere in the middle. It had a few funny moments worth a chuckle, but I think the only bit that stuck with me was the catian doctor's response to getting an award. Probably my favorite moment.

Oh, and the malfunctioning food replicator. Like, you don't really see mundane glitches on a Starfleet ship so that bit felt real to me.

The visuals were really good though. Like, I really felt that next gen look. I think it could be a good show if they write a bit better. The humor can still be there, just balance it with story.

[AdmiralCheez]

It had a few funny moments worth a chuckle, but I think the only bit that stuck with me was the catian doctor's response to getting an award. Probably my favorite moment.

Oh, and the malfunctioning food replicator. Like, you don't really see mundane glitches on a Starfleet ship so that bit felt real to me.

Oh yeah, the doctor was great, and I liked the replicator bit; I actually got a good chuckle out of that one. Funny stuff like that is what I want in this show, and it feels believable for Star Trek. Characters acting like total morons, or antagonizing each other for laughs is not what I'm into, and mean-spirited hijinks are not in the spirit of the franchise. Playful pranks, sure. Drunkenly swinging sharp weapons around and injuring a coworker, or making fun of their ambitions? No thanks.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by AdmiralCheez
Characters acting like total morons, or antagonizing each other for laughs is not what I'm into, and mean-spirited hijinks are not in the spirit of the franchise. Playful pranks, sure. Drunkenly swinging sharp weapons around and injuring a coworker, or making fun of their ambitions? No thanks.

This sums up most of the show's issues, but unfortunately about 95% of its content as well, to judge from the pilot.

The essence of a Star Trek crew is that they support each other, even if they have different views on how to achieve their goals. The goals themselves aren't made fun of, because when the characters undermine each other it undermines the show itself.

Unfortunately this show just doesn't seem to understand that, and it sacrifices that deeper dynamic for cheap yuks which, frankly, don't seem to rate more than a few microyuks apiece. Every new Trek show has had to prove itself to fans of the previous versions, but there doesn't seem to be much actual Trek here.

[Rodin]

This sums up most of the show's issues, but unfortunately about 95% of its content as well, to judge from the pilot.

The essence of a Star Trek crew is that they support each other, even if they have different views on how to achieve their goals. The goals themselves aren't made fun of, because when the characters undermine each other it undermines the show itself.

Unfortunately this show just doesn't seem to understand that, and it sacrifices that deeper dynamic for cheap yuks which, frankly, don't seem to rate more than a few microyuks apiece. Every new Trek show has had to prove itself to fans of the previous versions, but there doesn't seem to be much actual Trek here.

This also sums up why I never got into Discovery. The crew of the ship didn't trust one another and especially didn't trust Michael. It's so against the spirit of Trek that I quickly didn't consider the show to be Star Trek at all. Heck, even the pick-up crew of vagabonds in Picard had better espirit de corps.

Can I get a Star Trek show that has a unified crew working to overcome obstacles? Please? You can get cheap character conflict anywhere on TV. Teams of people that trust each other working to solve a problem are much rarer. Especially Sci-Fi ones.

[Dire_Flumph]

Eh, it's a comedy, and it comes down to if you don't think it's funny, then it's not going to be for you.

However, I'll go to bat for the show against those who want to say it doesn't "get" Star Trek.

I was initially worried myself given the trailers that this would be another Orville or that it would lean more Red Dwarf where we take the comedy coming from the fact that the crew are morons (Red Dwarf is great, but these characters aren't supposed to be the ship janitors or anything). Also, Star Trek's record with comedy in general is...less than stellar. So far, at least two episodes in, I don't feel it's the case.

Mariner is an ass, and per TNG standards that makes her prime Admiral material. But in all seriousness, as I mentioned before, I like the idea of the character a lot. She's extremely intuitive, picks things up quickly, is fantastic at working with other species and could be an outstanding officer. If it wasn't for the fact that she has no motivation. From the first episode, that may stem from a disillusionment with Starfleet in the first place, and from what we've seen so far it wouldn't be completely unfounded. She's not a complete sociopath like with Rick on Rick and Morty, we see that she does care for others and is capable of forming bonds with other people. I think it's a great idea for a character, especially in a comedy frame, if, and I mean IF, they are interested in exploring her and growing her. I had the same hopes for Tilly on Discovery and that shows insistence on focusing on Michael to the exclusion of everyone else hampered that, so we will see.

The biggest strike you could make against Boimler is that he's book-smart, but naive, socially awkward and panics easily. Nothing so far has screamed moron to me about him. He seems like the type who could easily become another Reg Barclay, hiding in the holodeck making himself the hero in his own universe after being unable to connect with anyone else. I like Tendi and Rutherford based on what I've seen so far, but neither episode has given all that much time to them.

Some thoughts:

- Yeah, Mariner + alchohol doesn't seem like a great combo, but to be fair, she was off duty at the time per her uniform. Most of the people I work with are complete professionals on the job and yet I've seen two incidents in my 17 years there where people have had to be rushed to the hospital for stupid horseplay on break time. It happens, especially on a sitcom. It's not like we haven't seen bridge officers on other shows get steaming drunk and doing stupid things. I agree it wasn't the best intro for the character though.

- If Mariner belittling Boimler's captain's log bothered you (and if you want, I could name you instances on TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY where crewmembers belittled or hampered another persons career aspirations), I should point out that in episode 2 the big running joke was how enthusiastic the rest of the ship was in helping Rutherford try out other career paths. The final reveal of episode 2 was also that

Spoiler: Ep 2 ending spoiler

Show

Mariner had engineered the climax to boost Boimler's confidence and give him a story to tell as an in with the other crew. And thank goodness for that, otherwise that would have been an almost insultingly stereotypical take on a Ferengi.

So that's my take, other side of the coin and all that. I came into Lower Decks with few expectations after the last (looks it up) *nine* Trek TV shows and movies (basically everything post DS9) and I'd rate it as "cautiously optimistic" so far. Though to be fair that's what I would have said about Picard after 2 episodes as well and my opinion now is quite a bit lower. But I think that it does (so far) get Star Trek better than much of anything I've seen in the last couple of decades. These people are, for the most part, enthusiatically Starfleet and very talented. The humor has mostly come from the fact that we are looking at the Fleet not from the top echelons of the flagship, but the people who fix the replicators and get the Doctor the wand-thingy on one of the less important Star Fleet vessels. I'm also enjoying the freedom animation is giving them to paint a more interesting science-fiction backdrop. It's not all roses, there are several bits that fell completely flat for me, but I do at least feel the writers are longtime Trek fans who are having some fun poking at something they love.

[Dragonus45]

Honestly I've only read the one -- albeit spread into two volumes. The Fifty-Year Mission by Edward Gross. The first volume is largely about TOS and the movies while the second follows TNG and the series that followed it more explicitly. It's not bad if you're specifically interested in television and movie production side of things. It is a comprehensive work with a positive glut of interviews with those on every level of the industry through all the Trek productions up to Abrams' entry.

That said, I haven't read others so I don't have lot of room for judgements here.

Thank you, I usually follow these sorts of books but this entirely slipped past me. I'm about half way through the first one now and loving it.

[Peelee]

I have no love for Lower Decks, but with all these people touting the Great Star Trek Team Unity, I'm wondering just how obscure DS9 was.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Peelee
I have no love for Lower Decks, but with all these people touting the Great Star Trek Team Unity, I'm wondering just how obscure DS9 was.

*sigh*

Of course I’m not saying that everyone on every show always worked together as smooth as a maglev train. I’m sure you can find counterexamples from every series, including TNG, where that ethos was most highly developed.

But whatever their conflicts, I don’t think you can describe the overall tone of TNG or DS9 as mean-spirited. Whereas from what I’ve seen, Lower Decks is little else.

Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph
…I do at least feel the writers are longtime Trek fans who are having some fun poking at something they love.

This may be one of the main fault lines between those who are enjoying it and those who aren’t. I don’t mind the occasional poke in a series that knows it can get a little too serious, but I don’t want a series that’s nothing but pokes. I don’t want to watch something that constantly makes fun of itself without offering anything more.

So while the showrunners may well be indulging themselves with that sort of thing, it’s not what I want to see in a Trek series. I want to watch something that gives me reasons to love it, and which allows me to lose myself in that enjoyment, rather than constantly jolting me out of it.

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
Honestly I've only read the one -- albeit spread into two volumes. The Fifty-Year Mission by Edward Gross.

Originally Posted by Dragonus45
Thank you, I usually follow these sorts of books but this entirely slipped past me. I'm about half way through the first one now and loving it.

I certainly appreciate the reference as well, and I’ve been working on Vol 2 for several days now.

That said, at some point I may come to enjoy the piecemeal, staccato-quote approach, but so far I’m finding it rather frustrating. I would’ve preferred a readable narrative, which tells a coherent story in a single voice with quotes from everyone involved. As it is, they seem to have copy-pasted quotes from a slew of interview transcripts in approximately chronological order.

It tells a story, more or less, but it’s a decidedly low-energy approach to authorship.

Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph
Eh, it's a comedy….

Circling back to humor, and what different people like:

This is absolutely hilarious to me. Couldn’t stop laughing. Especially since the first couple minutes is such a brilliant sendup of Trek’s tendency towards hokey and stilted dialogue.

Be sure to watch through the end credits to the final little item, which is a sendup of a different kind.

[Peelee]

*sigh*

Of course I’m not saying that everyone on every show always worked together as smooth as a maglev train. I’m sure you can find counterexamples from every series, including TNG, where that ethos was most highly developed.

But whatever their conflicts, I don’t think you can describe the overall tone of TNG or DS9 as mean-spirited. Whereas from what I’ve seen, Lower Decks is little else.

Quark was openly antagonistic towards... Everyone. Odo frequently butted heads with Starfleet. Bajorans were lukewarm at best to the Federation and Federation officers, which also gave a lot of complex loyalty issues to Kira.

Im not just talking about one-off subplots, there were entire multi-episide plots that centered around the uneasy situation with control over the space station. Hell, that was one of the main themes in the first couple of seasons!

Just because nobody called anyone else lame doesn't mean that there wasn't a lot of inter-character tension on the show

[Dire_Flumph]

But whatever their conflicts, I don’t think you can describe the overall tone of TNG or DS9 as mean-spirited. Whereas from what I’ve seen, Lower Decks is little else.

This may be one of the main fault lines between those who are enjoying it and those who aren’t. I don’t mind the occasional poke in a series that knows it can get a little too serious, but I don’t want a series that’s nothing but pokes. I don’t want to watch something that constantly makes fun of itself without offering anything more.

Yeah, I get the feeling that's the disconnect, I just don't see the show as mean spirited and quite a bit more optimistic than Discovery or Picard so far.

And at least for me, the something more is a new perspective. Voyager, Enterprise, and the Orville are all working too hard digging in a groove TNG did better. 5 of the last 7 films could be summarized as "Enterprise crew must stop mad alien from destroying Earth/Federation due to vague grudge". This feels like the same universe in a fresher perspective, and if we are going to keep pumping out Trek, that's what it needs. I've been seeing that Strange New Worlds goal is to just do TOS/TNG again, and I'm already mentally checked out.

Circling back to humor, and what different people like:

This is absolutely hilarious to me. Couldn’t stop laughing. Especially since the first couple minutes is such a brilliant sendup of Trek’s tendency towards hokey and stilted dialogue.

Be sure to watch through the end credits to the final little item, which is a sendup of a different kind.

I wrote off the Short Treks initially, as mid-season webisode filler usually doesn't justify the 5 minutes it takes to watch it. I keep hearing good things though. I'll take a look when I can.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Palanan
The essence of a Star Trek crew is that they support each other, even if they have different views on how to achieve their goals.

Originally Posted by Peelee
Quark was openly antagonistic towards... Everyone. Odo frequently butted heads with Starfleet. Bajorans were lukewarm at best to the Federation and Federation officers….

I was referring to the dynamics of Federation starship crews, which are the focus of every Trek series except DS9. Naturally Ferengi and Changelings don't really compare.

Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph
Voyager, Enterprise, and the Orville are all working too hard digging in a groove TNG did better.

This is certainly very true, which is part of the reason I didn’t stay long with the first two. Voyager completely failed to take advantage of the possibilities of completely unknown space, and Enterprise failed to provide a compelling vision of the early Federation.

Orville at least knows that it’s an echo of TNG, and they do manage to occasionally hit the right pitch. They also have the benefit of TNG nostalgia.

Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph
I've been seeing that Strange New Worlds goal is to just do TOS/TNG again, and I'm already mentally checked out.

Yeah, I don’t need yet another version of Pike. And certainly not another prequel.

Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph
I wrote off the Short Treks initially, as mid-season webisode filler usually doesn't justify the 5 minutes it takes to watch it. I keep hearing good things though. I'll take a look when I can.

I’ve watched three so far, and they’ve all been excellent in different ways.

They might feel like filler if what you really wanted was a full-length episode, but each of them holds up well on its own merits. Definitely recommended.

[Peelee]

I was referring to the dynamics of Federation starship crews, which are the focus of every Trek series except DS9.

Ah, so the argument is "every Star Trek did things this specific way and this one is doing it different. But don't compare it to DS9 because DS9 did it different." I don't think that's as strong of an argument as you seem to think.

Notwithstanding that every other Star Trek focused on the dynamics between the main characters, who just happened to also be the crew.

[Palanan]

I'm not making an "argument" at all, and certainly not some grand statement to be carved on the summit of Olympus Mons. I'm just making observations based on my viewing experience. Please don't try to make it more than that.

[Peelee]

I'm not making an "argument" at all, and certainly not some grand statement to be carved on the summit of Olympus Mons. I'm just making observations based on my viewing experience. Please don't try to make it more than that.

This would have been easier if you used the quote function (or didn't strip out the post ID if you do use the quote function).

The essence of a Star Trek crew is that they support each other, even if they have different views on how to achieve their goals. The goals themselves aren't made fun of, because when the characters undermine each other it undermines the show itself.

Unfortunately this show just doesn't seem to understand that, and it sacrifices that deeper dynamic for cheap yuks which, frankly, don't seem to rate more than a few microyuks apiece. Every new Trek show has had to prove itself to fans of the previous versions, but there doesn't seem to be much actual Trek here.

That is an argument. I responded with my own argument. If you don't wish to make arguments, then I'm sorry to say that ship sailed a few hours ago.

[Psyren]

I have no love for Lower Decks, but with all these people touting the Great Star Trek Team Unity, I'm wondering just how obscure DS9 was.

While this is true, I think it's fair to call DS9 an outlier though, since it was the only ship spacefaring construct among the main series group that had multiple factions vying for control rather than being beholden solely to Starfleet (even nominally). The Cerritos doesn't have that same excuse - though of course, Mariner's discord seems to be something that is either unknown to or being glossed over (for obvious reasons) by the ship's brass anyway.

[Peelee]

While this is true, I think it's fair to call DS9 an outlier though, since it was the only ship spacefaring construct among the main series group that had multiple factions vying for control rather than being beholden solely to Starfleet (even nominally). The Cerritos doesn't have that same excuse - though of course, Mariner's discord seems to be something that is either unknown to or being glossed over (for obvious reasons) by the ship's brass anyway.

That's more or less fair. Two points I'd like to make though :

First, DS9 tried something very different. It worked out wonderfully, and I'm glad they risked it, but "risk" is an operative word here. Lower Decks seems to be working out poorly, but I'm glad they risked it.

Second, I think most people gloss over just how overtly racist McCoy was towards Spock in TOS. I've heard a lot of "but it was friendly banter" that I never quite buy, since no small part of it was effectively kicking Spock while he was down (or wrong, rather), and that when marooned on an ice world with only a single other person, and Spock actually let his emotions out, even he was fed up with McCoy's ****. So open, rampant antagonism towards another crewmember is not a new thing that LD is bringing to the ST universe (and I'm even ignoring TNG's Pulaski-treats-Data-like-an-object behavior, mostly because I didn't like Pulaski much). Open, rampant antagonism towards all other crewmembers is, but thays less killing the sacred cow than it is going from a burger a week to steak every day. It's just that the steak is bland and tough, and wreaking havoc on the guts.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Peelee
That is an argument. I responded with my own argument. If you don't wish to make arguments, then I'm sorry to say that ship sailed a few hours ago.

I feel like you're trying to back me into a corner, and nobody likes that feeling. I don't believe I've responded that way to you.

Originally Posted by Psyren
While this is true, I think it's fair to call DS9 an outlier though, since it was the only ship spacefaring construct among the main series group that had multiple factions vying for control rather than being beholden solely to Starfleet (even nominally). The Cerritos doesn't have that same excuse….

This exactly.

[Peelee]

I feel like you're trying to back me into a corner, and nobody likes that feeling. I don't believe I've responded that way to you.

I think there's some miscommunication here. I'm saying you made an argument, in that you made an assertion and explained your reasoning. This is a discussion forum, an that's what the core of discussion is; people making arguments and others agreeing, disagreeing, or exploring those arguments. Saying "you made an argument" is not aggressive or "backing you into a corner" or anything; it's a neutral statement of fact. You made an argument.

If I was wrong about miscommunication, then I simply don't understand why or how you feel like I'm backing you into a corner on this.

[Mister Biffo]

The show looks bad but I do like the green girl. She's a cutie.

[AdmiralCheez]

On the DS9 comparison, I think there's a big difference between being antagonistic because you have opposing goals and just being antagonistic for a laugh. In DS9, the characters don't all work together as part of the same "team." Quark wants to make a profit, the Federation crew want to uphold the Federation ideals, and still others just want to keep the peace. They don't need to be a cohesive crew, because they're not. They all just happen to be big players on the same space station. It feels natural that there is tension between them, and arguments are to be expected.

Meanwhile, with Lower Decks, you've got one of the main characters going out of her way to make the other's life miserable largely for her own amusement. He asks her to stop, and she continues. No disciplinary action is taken, and she even somehow is rewarded for it by being proven right, and not getting turned in to the Captain. That's just so contradictory to the rest of what we've seen of the Federation that it's off-putting.

[Bobb]

Yeah, I'll sign up for the "what the heck is pelee on about" t-shirt.

Especially considering in response to "The essence of a Star Trek crew is that they support each other" he brought up "lolz DS9 Quark."

Quark's not a part of a Star Trek crew. Plus he and Odo basically become friends by the end of the show despite one being a cop and the other a crook.