Engender(queer)ing my Vaarsuvian Visions.

[ebarde]

The concept of high to low functioning is a tad hard to define in a lot of cases, mostly cause as an autistic person I think a lot of times it ends up oversimplifing some important nuances that every person has.

V and Elan are actually fairly illustrative on my point on that regard. Who would you say it's the most functioning?

You could say V, after all they're extremely knowledgeable in an area that is directly related to their chosen profession and life style. But at the same time they're pretty quick to annoyance, have a hard time relating to other people, and are often quick to dismiss things that don't directly relates to magic.

On the other hand, you could definetly also argue for Elan. Yeah he isn't that book smart, but he's fairly adapt in storytelling and music. And despite how much he annoys a lot of his teammates, he's shown to be extremely charismatic, with tons of characters instantly taking a liking to him.

Btw I'm not saying they're autisic necessarily, I just thought they were fairly good examples to illustrate my point.

[CriticalFailure]

If you are expecting to be offended you will always find something would be my guess.

Unfortunately that has been my observation with online fandom communities. It seems like people just want excuses to try to make flaming and bad behavior look legitimate and co-opt important issues to do so. And yeah, everyone thinks that they are smart.

[ebarde]

If you are expecting to be offended you will always find something would be my guess.

Look at Elan: Rich is making fun of people with low IQ everytime he makes an Elan joke, but since no one with low IQ reads OotS* **, THAT is minority that can safely made fun of.


No, it really doesn't make sense.


* Alternatively, people with low IQ don't realize they are the butt of jokes, and thus don't care
** Most people may be convinced they have higher than average IQ, anyway

I honestly think this is a bit of a weird reading of Elan's jokes, the butt of the joke isn't any group of people but rather just Elan, or more often his party members that are annoyed by his silly behavior. I also don't really think Rich particularly seems to care about IQ tests, as do most people tbh. If anything, Roy is in the receiving end of most of the funny bits with Elan.

[Mightymosy]

I honestly think this is a bit of a weird reading of Elan's jokes, the butt of the joke isn't any group of people but rather just Elan, or more often his party members that are annoyed by his silly behavior. I also don't really think Rich particularly seems to care about IQ tests, as do most people tbh. If anything, Roy is in the receiving end of most of the funny bits with Elan.

Well, no.
The group including Roy and Haley openly make fun of Elan, and that is portrayed as okay (most of thr times).
We, the readers laugh because he is so stupid and we are smart in comparison. Sure, we also laught about Roy, but Elan is the stupid one, thats just how that kind of humor works.
Honestly, i am fine with it in general, what bothers me is that low IQ people get the short end when other "minorities" are tabu to make fun of, all of a sudden.
Stand by your humor or don't, is what I am saying I guess.

Consider the Big Bang episode where the gang openly makes fun of Penny's Ex who is rather low IQ himself. Even Leonard joins in, although he should know better.

That episode is like Elan with OotS.

[Precure]

Judging by his flashbacks, Durkon seems to implied to be neurodivergent at some extent.

[Riarra]

Judging by his flashbacks, Durkon seems to implied to be neurodivergent at some extent.

Durkon trying so hard to make sure he's interpreting Roy correctly in battle really solidified my autistic headcanon for him. And I always come back to his line from OtOoPCs "He's supposed to let me finish"--he likes there to be rules and structure to help in social situations (and every situation, really). He's overly blunt and straightforward a lot, he has to actively try to be more flexible and less passive, and this bit from the BRitF commentary:

Spoiler

Show

He was willing to look past her association with Nale, only to later discover that he was projecting morals onto her that she did not hold. It would be easy to chalk this up to him being gullible or too trusting, but that’s oversimplifying the matter. Durkon wants very much to be the sort of person who looks past surface qualities to see the true heart of everyone he meets. His mistake is thinking that if what he sees is bad, then what’s underneath must be good; he doesn’t consider that it might be even
worse. That makes him exactly the sort of person against whom hollow civility serves as perfect cover.

has always been really relatable to me, and feels very much like something someone who struggles with social cues would do--knowing you have trouble interpreting people, consciously trying to compensate for that, and erring on the side of assuming they're not actually as malicious as they might seem.

[PattThe]

Durkontrying so hard to make sure he's interpreting Roy correctly in battle really solidified my autistic headcanon for him. And I always come back to his line from OtOoPCs "He's supposed to let me finish"--he likes there to be rules and structure to help in social situations (and every situation, really). He's overly blunt and straightforward a lot, he has to actively try to be more flexible and less passive, and this bit from the BRitF commentary:

Spoiler

Show

He was willing to look past her association with Nale, only to later discover that he was projecting morals onto her that she did not hold. It would be easy to chalk this up to him being gullible or too trusting, but that’s oversimplifying the matter. Durkon wants very much to be the sort of person who looks past surface qualities to see the true heart of everyone he meets. His mistake is thinking that if what he sees is bad, then what’s underneath must be good; he doesn’t consider that it might be even
worse. That makes him exactly the sort of person against whom hollow civility serves as perfect cover.

has always been really relatable to me, and feels very much like something someone who struggles with social cues would do--knowing you have trouble interpreting people, consciously trying to compensate for that, and erring on the side of assuming they're not actually as malicious as they might seem.

Wow.. talk about seeing something in a new light. That instantly recontextualized the scene for me. Durkon is such a deeply caring yet always obstructed individual and stands out even among other dwarves as someone who:

A, is desperate to have answers for things he sees as starkly important to understand (why his mother did the things she did, understanding roy in said battle, his utter joy over having 'a' reason he was forced out of his homeland)

B, feels emotions very VERY deeply yet is incapable or unwilling to express their complicated feelings to anyone (except inside his own mind, which is something I can empathize with- I can empathize with all of this actually. I am really happy I got to read a thread with more aspies in it, I only recently started thinking about that for myself) until they can express it in a way that works with their outward personality

C, is fixated on rules in a way that may not be based on ethics and social stigma but rather that the rules were explained to him, he understood the rules, and then he can't understand what is happening when someone doesn't follow them as seen in 0962- which to me looked a lot like a frustration rather than an anger toward the other child. Again, I am projecting hard here because I never really thought to empathize with Durkon in this way.


Durkon may be neurotypical or may indeed be neurodivergent like some of us, however there is definitely something about the way they tick aside from other dwarves that can work very well as a lens to look at one's own difficulties understanding other people.
The fact that they had their emotional arc be something completely internal (as opposed to Haley's emotional arc which was internal but dealt discretely with her relationships with others, where Durkon never had anyone seeing him let his guard down except his negative energy counterpart. Self vs self down two different avenues.) tells me that this notion of Durkon having a social issue understanding others and frustration over breaking rules..
How quickly could we compile all the times Durkon gets frustrated? I'd like to see if there's a pattern..
@Patt

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Of course, we could all tell from early on that Elan is represents those who are low-functioning autistic,

Vaarsuvius may well be on the autistic spectrum (to the extent that the term "on the autistic spectrum" is even meaningful). But Elan? Whatever Elan is, it definitely, absolutely, is not autism. Elan is "on the autistic spectrum" in the same sense that gamma rays are "on the radio spectrum".

What are you even going on about?

I have to agree with Chronos here. I'm not seeing Elan as particularly autistic. I know every one of us is different, and autistic people can definitely have social skills. Heck, a friend of mine recently pegged me as a valor bard when discussing what class all of us would be. But Elan specifically does not give me an autistic vibe at all. ADHD maybe, so that's sort of connected, but so clearly autistic that we could all tell from early on? Nope, not agreeing with that. He does not give me the same sort of click as Donatello from the Ninja Turtles, Frank Martin/The Transporter and Sergeant Todd from Soldier. Who I've all headcanon'd as autistic despite any and all evidence to the contrary.

V definitely has some characteristic, but the longer I think about it, the more characters have some of the characteristics. Redcloak can be pretty autistic at times. The man has plenty of intelligence and even more wisdom yet he's single mindedly devoted to his stupid goal to the point of an obsession and in social situations he seems to very much use his intelligence and powers of analysis where most people would play by instinct. That's not unlike how I often do it.


If your niece identifies/connects with V, great! If she identifies/connects with Elan, great! But in that second case in particular I don't feel inclined to grab the DSM and start diagnosing quite yet. (And if the Giant has stated is as fact I'm probably claiming "death of the author".)

[PattThe]

. . . Redcloak can be pretty autistic at times. The man has plenty of intelligence and even more wisdom yet he's single mindedly devoted to his stupid goal to the point of an obsession and in social situations he seems to very much use his intelligence and powers of analysis where most people would play by instinct. That's not unlike how I often do it.

If it weren't for his backstory and the events directly preceding Xykon's invasion of Dorukan's temple, I'd be inclined to agree with you. However Redcloak seems dour and stuck with their decisions because of what has been lost already. I think the thing that makes RC such an evil character is that they are 100% voluntary signed on for doing everything and everything that he knows is wrong solely out of a motivation to not let their own failures be all for nothing. Honestly he is such a good case for Good in the sense that the only thing actually holding him back is psychology and him thinking he's too far gone. His life is a fallacy and evil is nothing if not a source for endless excuses, as evil is in one sense just the act of focusing only on the terrible parts of life.
However one thing does make me go back to siding with you on their spectrum-ness or otherwise neurodiverse qualities. The easiest way for Redcloak to escape their self-fulfilling prophecy would be to interact with others and expose himself to seeing other perspectives. Not being neurotypical could deeply obstruct their capability for interpersonal connections and could produce a very prominent failure to engage, which I'm pretty sure is a bright calling card for some styles of autism.

[Lemarc]

V doesn't have autism, the Giant tells us. And he has no interest in depicting anyone neurodivergent or suffering from mental illness in his comic whatsoever, for lack of experience on the subject, lack of things to say. So there's that, but completely genuinely I'd hate to interfere with your headcanon. It's just it's not what the author is attempting to do, that's all.

[Riarra]

V doesn't have autism, the Giant tells us. And he has no interest in depicting anyone neurodivergent or suffering from mental illness in his comic whatsoever, for lack of experience on the subject, lack of things to say. So there's that, but completely genuinely I'd hate to interfere with your headcanon. It's just it's not what the author is attempting to do, that's all.

I do appreciate this, because V and Elan are both the kind of character where, if they had been conceived of as autistic or otherwise neurodivergent from the beginning, their portrayal would have absolutely left a bad taste in my mouth. Elan is infantilized a lot, and if V was canonically autistic, I think their negative character development would have sat wrong with me. "This person has difficulty relating with others and their single-minded pursuit of this one thing ends up hurting others around them" can be done well, but with an intentionally-autistic character I think it would be really easy to end up demonizing their autistic qualities instead of treating them with greater nuance, especially for a neurotypical author. Bad representation can absolutely be worse than no representation at all and the Giant's choice is completely valid.

I read someone once say (I'd love to give them credit but I have no memory of where I read this and google isn't helping) that a lot of good autistic characters are often written by neurotypical authors who have no idea they're writing an autistic character, because then they don't rely on repeating the stereotypical depictions they've seen before and just try to write the character well. V's definitely autistic-coded and I particularly like headcanoning Elan as autistic to kind of balance V out--hyperempathy (he personifies his lute and vest and puppets!) vs low-empathy, extroversion vs introversion--especially now that Elan's not being infantilized nearly as much.

Redcloak can be pretty autistic at times. The man has plenty of intelligence and even more wisdom yet he's single mindedly devoted to his stupid goal to the point of an obsession and in social situations he seems to very much use his intelligence and powers of analysis where most people would play by instinct. That's not unlike how I often do it.

He really likes his schedules and routines...

[PattThe]

I agree, the secondary/supporting/antagonizing cast are far more intriguing to investigate for neurodiverse qualities!

[DaLucaray]

I'd like to give my two cents and mention that it's very easy for neurotypical writers to accidentally write characters with ADHD/Autistic traits without realizing it. There are achetypes in stories (the "nutty professor", the quiet misunderstood loner with a good heart) that share a lot of traits with neurodivergent people and very likely are drawn from real-life neurodivergent people. All storytellers draw from the real world- a good storyteller can see a pattern in behavior without realizing what it is they're noticing.

As for OotS characters, Elan in particular strikes me as just kinda dumb. I could see ADHD (bard camp) but nothing he says or does strikes me as autistic, unless you count "having an interest in something" as exclusively autistic.

I could definitely see V as being autistic. It depends on how you read the "The kids are in bed" panel IMO, and they are definitely very direct, practical, and focused on magic above all else. I agree that, were this done as intentional autism rep, it would be pretty callous, but I also agree that it's an interpretation supported by the text.

Durkon has a much stronger case after Utterly Dwarfed, now that we know that he's unusually stoic and rule-abiding, even for a dwarf. Before that book, he was a combination of "his people are very rule abiding" and "stranger in a strange land", but the context of dwarf society retroatively makes him more likely to be on the spectrum. I personally really like this interpretation, and a lot of that has to with the fact he doesnt really fit with the stereotype of autistic people.

[WanderingMist]

Hmm, I see it as more of a culture clash than anything to do with autism. Dwarves, elves, and even halflings may look human, but we have to remember they aren't, and the cultures they grew up in were fundamentally different. Elves live for centuries (I think dwarves also live for centuries but fewer of them), so of course their mindset is going to be vastly different compared to a species that lives 120 years at best. And I'm skeptical of autism and related disorder claims in general, because after trying to read that DSM-V or whatever, it seemed like they were trying to classify every single behavior as abnormal and a sign of some disorder.

[PattThe]

Hmm, I see it as more of a culture clash than anything to do with autism. Dwarves, elves, and even halflings may look human, but we have to remember they aren't, and the cultures they grew up in were fundamentally different. Elves live for centuries (I think dwarves also live for centuries but fewer of them), so of course their mindset is going to be vastly different compared to a species that lives 120 years at best. And I'm skeptical of autism and related disorder claims in general, because after trying to read that DSM-V or whatever, it seemed like they were trying to classify every single behavior as abnormal and a sign of some disorder.

But Durkon was shown to be unique *before* he was kicked out of home. I don't see the culture clash as having anything to do with the narrative post-vampire arc.

[DaLucaray]

But Durkon was shown to be unique *before* he was kicked out of home. I don't see the culture clash as having anything to do with the narrative post-vampire arc.

My Doylist view here is that he was originally conceived as acting the way he does because Thats How Dwarfs Act, but over the last decade and a half his characterization changed and by the time The Giant wanted to show dwarven culture he decided to make Durkon, retroactively, a little weird for a dwarf.

[137beth]

My Doylist view here is that he was originally conceived as acting the way he does because Thats How Dwarfs Act, but over the last decade and a half his characterization changed and by the time The Giant wanted to show dwarven culture he decided to make Durkon, retroactively, a little weird for a dwarf.

Yea, that's my interpretation as well.

[Precure]

My Doylist view here is that he was originally conceived as acting the way he does because Thats How Dwarfs Act, but over the last decade and a half his characterization changed and by the time The Giant wanted to show dwarven culture he decided to make Durkon, retroactively, a little weird for a dwarf.

He's not shown like that before though.