Dune (2020): The Remakes Must Flow

[Cikomyr2]

Patrick Stewart had a career before Dune. I think the first thing I ever saw him in "I Claudius" in which he played Sejanus. That was made in the 70s. He still had most of his hair....

I will try to get out of the hole I dug for myself and make it appear that I obviously meant Patrick Stewart's *American Sci-Fi Career*

[Kitten Champion]

I think Excalibur was his first notable movie, at least it's the oldest one I can remember him in.

While it definitely wasn't a big role, he did stand out.

On a tangential note, I forgot how much I disliked Nigel Terry's presence in that.

[Roland St. Jude]

I am a lover of all things Dune, and I admit to being a fan of the grand, operatic mess that is the David Lynch Dune. I liked the TV version, too, and I'm sure I'll like the Villenueve version. I like his other work, a lot.

But watching this "side-by-side" video, I find I prefer the visuals from the 1984 Lynch version in pretty much every single frame. Is that crazy?

[Ramza00]

But watching this "side-by-side" video, I find I prefer the visuals from the 1984 Lynch version in pretty much every single frame. Is that crazy?

Nope.

You are not the only one who feels that way.

I can speculate why people feel that way, why I feel that way, but it would sound mean...Mean in the kind of way such as picking your favorite of your children and in doing so dissing the other children.

Lynch's version is brilliant yet simultaneously very bad. (And that is okay!)

[brionl]

Nope.

You are not the only one who feels that way.

I can speculate why people feel that way, why I feel that way, but it would sound mean...Mean in the kind of way such as picking your favorite of your children and in doing so dissing the other children.

Lynch's version is brilliant yet simultaneously very bad. (And that is okay!)

I probably haven't watched it since it first came out, but IMO it was great visually. Just the story was all butchered.

[Eldan]

I do find a lot of what we see in the Villeneuve version (armour, spaceships, architecture) looks very grey and blocky. Which I don't think really fits with the books, which are about prestige-obsessed noble houses, who surely would invest in a bit more pomp and colour.

[SirKazum]

I do find a lot of what we see in the Villeneuve version (armour, spaceships, architecture) looks very grey and blocky. Which I don't think really fits with the books, which are about prestige-obsessed noble houses, who surely would invest in a bit more pomp and colour.

The recent TV series does an amazing job of being ridiculously flamboyant, at least in the wardrobe department. I liked how it looked there.

[Caledonian]

I probably haven't watched it since it first came out, but IMO it was great visually. Just the story was all butchered.

It was a great movie, just a terrible adaptation.

Which is rather how I feel about the Lord of the Rings movies - the first was a good adaptation, the others weren't, and I don't think the story they told stands up on its own.

Lynch is a brilliant director who tells his own sort of stories with his own sort of visuals. He was never a good choice to film Dune. I don't know why he was selected, or why he said yes. Although given his lawyer's upbraiding after he turned down the directorship of *The Return of the Jedi*, I can guess it was money.

[WinterKnight404]

You got your comparisons wrong. House Atreides is not the US and House Harkenon is not the USSR. The cold war doesn't even come up in a way. much less a homage.

2) Spice/Melange is not Oil.

You can claim Cold War, but for Cold War Stories i would expect to see: two powers/factions that resemble either Eagleland or Commieland with many of the stereotypes and ones heavily exagrated by the feeling of each side as viewed by the writer; there would be areas/third parties that the two powers/factions are trying to influence and encourage them to their side; both powers/factions will be providing some kind of support to their allies/etc; neither power/faction would be taking direct action or having its members taking direct military action agaisnt the other side, they both employ events to maybe cause a proxy war, but they don't fight that war themselves, if they did, it is not a Cold War story.

I did not come up with the Cold War comparison. It appears in the Appendices of my copy of Dune and it's not clear if Herbert wrote it himself or not. I'm trying very hard not to sound condescending but if you think, and dig, just a bit deeper you will see that the comparison between the houses and the nations in the cold war is very apt. I never said spice is oil and I also never said the conflict between Atreides and Harkonnen is exactly like the Cold War. I said that there were strong similarities that enrich the story of Dune beyond the oversimplified plot you expressed in your OP. Spice is a metaphor for a highly prized natural resource that two superpowers are fighting for control of, very much like oil. What is the sigil of House Atreides? An Eagle... hmmm could that be like the USA? What is the main color of House Harkonen's banner? Red. Soviet Red. Where is oil found? Desert. Where is spice found? Desert. Like I said, you just have to think a bit more critically.

As for factions and third parties that each is trying to win to their side Dune is FULL of them. Both Harkonen and Atriedes in the beginning are vying for the attentions of House Corrino, the house of the Emperor, and trying to win his favor by producing spice and that plot also thickens considerably. After the initial fall of Atreides, Paul has to earn the favor of the Fremen, the natives of the planet (also a strategy commonly employed by the USA when trying to conquer a country to earn the hearts and minds of the local population). They both also have to appeal to the interests of the Bene Gesserit, and the Spacing Guild and there are many other parties involved in the novels to follow.

[Caledonian]

Yes. Harkonnen is a Finnish name, and Finland used to be dominated by the Soviet Union. There are clear and obvious parallels, but the Atreides are not meant to be the US and the Harkonnens aren't the SU. These are associations meant to quickly establish a pattern.

Just as melange isn't oil, and Arrakis isn't the Middle East - but the parallels are meant to make us think about how the patterns established in the fiction reflect patterns in the real world.

[SirKazum]

Just as melange isn't oil, and Arrakis isn't the Middle East - but the parallels are meant to make us think about how the patterns established in the fiction reflect patterns in the real world.

Indeed, spice melange isn't oil, and Arrakis isn't the Middle East... but IMO, you have to try really hard to not see a thematic connection there. Not a direct correspondence, of course, but a "reminding" of real-world issues. After all, you've got a natural resource that is the most important commodity in the international economy, in large part because of the role it has in enabling long-distance transportation (that's not all spice does, sure, but that's not all oil does either), a resource which is found in a desert area populated by a deeply religious (Zensunni, in fact) people whose names and native phrases all sound vaguely Arabic? Come on. (And yes, I'm sure that connection involves misrepresenting the real-world counterparts in significant ways, but those misrepresentations are widely-held assumptions that are likely to be in the mind of the average reader, no matter how wrong.)

[WinterKnight404]

Yes. Harkonnen is a Finnish name, and Finland used to be dominated by the Soviet Union. There are clear and obvious parallels, but the Atreides are not meant to be the US and the Harkonnens aren't the SU. These are associations meant to quickly establish a pattern.

Just as melange isn't oil, and Arrakis isn't the Middle East - but the parallels are meant to make us think about how the patterns established in the fiction reflect patterns in the real world.

Thank you. That's exactly the point I'm trying to make.

[WinterKnight404]

Stillsuits should look very weathered... the screenshot of the one I assume is Stilgar makes their suits look too "new."

Casting choices (vaguely Arabic-to-Pashtun) for the Fremen generally looks good and fits. Jessica is supposed to be a redhead and I had a hard time picking her out in the trailer (had to watch it with sound off due to conference call).

Shai-hulud is suitably epic.

The stillsuits look similar to the suits worn in the TV series to me.

Jessica AND Chani were supposed to be redheads but I got blasted and accused of being racist for bringing that up as the reason Zendaya was a bad choice to play Chani on a FB group but this is a politically correct world we live in now. Also, they recast Dr. Kynes, Chani's father in the books, as a black woman for this film. I wonder how they are going to squeeze in an unnecessary LGBT relationship into the plot.

I think the great worms look strange. Too many teeth.

[Cikomyr2]

Indeed, spice melange isn't oil, and Arrakis isn't the Middle East... but IMO, you have to try really hard to not see a thematic connection there. Not a direct correspondence, of course, but a "reminding" of real-world issues. After all, you've got a natural resource that is the most important commodity in the international economy, in large part because of the role it has in enabling long-distance transportation (that's not all spice does, sure, but that's not all oil does either), a resource which is found in a desert area populated by a deeply religious (Zensunni, in fact) people whose names and native phrases all sound vaguely Arabic? Come on. (And yes, I'm sure that connection involves misrepresenting the real-world counterparts in significant ways, but those misrepresentations are widely-held assumptions that are likely to be in the mind of the average reader, no matter how wrong.)

For me, Dune story is more about colonialism, oppression of native populations and just how ****ed up and unstable are all Empires who rely so much on their oppression of these native lands.

That's what it's about. Now, I believe the similarities one may see in the work vs the real world is meant to evoke the themes. But they are not the theme.

This is the same reason Tolkien hated analogical works. Because the analogy, when too blunt, gets in the way of the theme of the work. Mordor isn't Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia, but Mordor is meant to represent a mechanized, industrialized oppressive imperialist regime.

[SirKazum]

For me, Dune story is more about colonialism, oppression of native populations and just how ****ed up and unstable are all Empires who rely so much on their oppression of these native lands.

Oh yes, it is very clearly about that. AND about how hero-worship distorts the truth about leaders, and leads to tyranny often worse than what the hero fought against. AND about the difficulties involved in terraforming a desert planet. AND about the lengths to which power-center groups will go to preserve whatever portion they have of the status-quo. AND about how knowledge of the future would completely screw you up and make your life hell. It's about a lot of stuff, and it has a LOT to say about each theme. Which is one of the reasons why it's an absolutely genius piece of literature, and one of the best works ever IMO, but then again, I'm just a fanboy

[Eldan]

I think the great worms look strange. Too many teeth.

Also not my favourite worm depiction, but actually very book accurate.

[WinterKnight404]

It's been announced that Dune 2020 will now be Dune 2021.

"It seems the spice won’t flow until next year, as Warner Bros. and Legendary are moving Denis Villeneueve‘s Dune off its December release date and will unveil the epic sci-fi movie on Oct. 1, 2021, Collider has exclusively learned."

https://collider.com/dune-movie-new-...source=twitter

[Cikomyr2]

It's been announced that Dune 2020 will now be Dune 2021.

"It seems the spice won’t flow until next year, as Warner Bros. and Legendary are moving Denis Villeneueve‘s Dune off its December release date and will unveil the epic sci-fi movie on Oct. 1, 2021, Collider has exclusively learned."

https://collider.com/dune-movie-new-...source=twitter

Add to the pile of victims of 2020.

Not the worst, sure.. But oh man I was waiting for this one for a long time.

[Saintheart]

Not completely related, but maybe of interest while we wait for the spice to start flowing again:

The guy who runs Stellar Australis, his astrophotography site in the southern hemisphere, is a friend of mine and a longtime fan of Dune. He went and made a poster of actual pictures of the stars named by Frank Herbert in the novels, and compiled a poster of them. It's big and in the spoiler below:

Spoiler: Dune

Show

All the pictures on his website are available for free, including the poster. The full-res version runs 14 MB and is available for download here.

[Caledonian]

Is there any way to determine if the Big Dipper would appear roughly the same from Arrakis?

(It's sort of freaky that Arrakis is close enough to the former site of Earth for the night sky to be mostly the same... but very few people realize that they're next-door to the birthplace of humankind.)

[Mechalich]

(It's sort of freaky that Arrakis is close enough to the former site of Earth for the night sky to be mostly the same... but very few people realize that they're next-door to the birthplace of humankind.)

The night sky is dominated by a lot of very bright stars that can be seen from extremely far away. There are 78 stellar objects (stars plus brown dwarfs) within 5 parsecs of our Sun, but we can only see 9 of them with the naked eye. Most of the truly bright stars we can see are giants that are hundreds of light years away and that would largely remain true within a sphere of a few hundred light years radius.

And 310 light years from Earth isn't exactly close by. There are millions of stars in a sphere 310 light years in radius.

[Dire_Flumph]

Is there any way to determine if the Big Dipper would appear roughly the same from Arrakis?

If Arrakis is 310 light years away? No. All of the stars in the Big Dipper are closer than that.

[Cikomyr2]

The night sky is dominated by a lot of very bright stars that can be seen from extremely far away. There are 78 stellar objects (stars plus brown dwarfs) within 5 parsecs of our Sun, but we can only see 9 of them with the naked eye. Most of the truly bright stars we can see are giants that are hundreds of light years away and that would largely remain true within a sphere of a few hundred light years radius.

And 310 light years from Earth isn't exactly close by. There are millions of stars in a sphere 310 light years in radius.

Millions of stars in 310 light year radius of the sun?

I call horse****

[hamishspence]

The night sky is dominated by a lot of very bright stars that can be seen from extremely far away. There are 78 stellar objects (stars plus brown dwarfs) within 5 parsecs of our Sun, but we can only see 9 of them with the naked eye. Most of the truly bright stars we can see are giants that are hundreds of light years away and that would largely remain true within a sphere of a few hundred light years radius.

And 310 light years from Earth isn't exactly close by. There are millions of stars in a sphere 310 light years in radius.

According to Wikipedia, the local stellar density is 0.004 stars per cubic light year:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_density

A sphere with radius 310 light years, has a volume of over 124 million cubic light years. You're looking at roughly half a million stars in that volume.

So - not millions - but half a million. Still a lot.

[Caledonian]

A lot of them will be dwarfs that aren't even visible to the naked eye from Earth.

[hamishspence]

Stars as bright as our Sun would probably be invisible to the eye once you get to 100 light years away or so.

[DavidSh]

Stars as bright as our Sun would probably be invisible to the eye once you get to 100 light years away or so.

Let's see. The Sun has absolute magnitude¹ 4.83, which is how it would appear at 10 parsecs distance. 100 light years is about 30.66 parsecs. 3.066 squared is about 10, so it would 1/10th as bright at 100 light years as at 10 parsecs. Magnitudes are a log scale where the difference between 1st and 6th magnitude is a factor of 100, so a factor of 10 is 2.5 magnitudes. This gives apparent magnitude of 7.3 or so at that distance, which is indeed invisible to the naked eye.

Compare this with Sirius, at absolute magnitude of 1.4, and Rigel, at absolute magnitude -7.0, which would easily be visible at such distances.

---
1) The lower the magnitude, the brighter the star. This is a development of the original ranking system, where stars of "1st magnitude" were the brightest stars, and stars of 6th magnitude were the dimmest visible stars.

[Stattick]

I mainly remember him suggesting that someone should monitor the Fremen's precise movements and get a head count of how many there actually were, out in the desert. If they were dealing with some bands or an actual army.

And daddy Harkonen wouldn't have explained it to his son, but iirc, The Guild had a deal to keep prying eyes out of the deep desert. The Guild was smuggling Fremen harvested spice out of the deep desert, for their own usage. And when The Guild throws it's weight around, you do what they say, else you'll loose access to interplanetary travel.

[hamishspence]

Vladimir Harkonnen wouldn't have explained the "Guild deal" to his nephew Glossu Rabban - because he didn't know about it - the Guild don't tell anyone they're taking huge bribes from the Fremen.

[Cikomyr2]

Vladimir Harkonnen wouldn't have explained the "Guild deal" to his nephew Glossu Rabban - because he didn't know about it - the Guild don't tell anyone they're taking huge bribes from the Fremen.

Aaaand we go back to the analogy related to colonialism; where the corporate will behind the colonialist effort will undermine their own agenda just to pursue greed.

Because I think we can all agree that this secret deal is probably what bit the Guild the most in the long run.