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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Orc in the Playground
     
    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    Few Things are just too strong to me, so I ban them outright at my table:

    Brute Fighter - Too much Damage AND defensive buffs.
    Mystic - Just broken
    Twilight Druid - Adding that much damage to AoE can be a bit much.
    Tranquility Monk - (Too much healing)
    Undead Warlock - (That doubling Eldritch Blast is too much.)
    Lore Wizard - Yeah, changing Hold Person to Dex Save's a bit much... AND it gets Expertise

    (Also, one baseline. The Ancestral Guardian just wrecks my campaigns cause I prefer one combat with a huge boss, and well.. just doesn't go well..)

    But for the most part, I love UA and am willing to work with people. IF something's a bit strong, I'm fine adding to it. I love UA because its more options for players, which is more fun.

    I tend to insist people do a UA Ranger one way or another so they can have more fun. And Class Variations is one of my favorite things to use.
    Last edited by Ganryu; 2020-08-08 at 04:25 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganryu View Post
    Few Things are just too strong to me, so I ban them outright at my table:

    Brute Fighter - Too much Damage AND defensive buffs.
    Mystic - Just broken
    Twilight Druid - Adding that much damage to AoE can be a bit much.
    Tranquility Monk - (Too much healing)
    Undead Warlock - (That doubling Eldritch Blast is too much.)
    Lore Wizard - Yeah, changing Hold Person to Dex Save's a bit much... AND it gets Expertise

    (Also, one baseline. The Ancestral Guardian just wrecks my campaigns cause I prefer one combat with a huge boss, and well.. just doesn't go well..)

    But for the most part, I love UA and am willing to work with people. IF something's a bit strong, I'm fine adding to it. I love UA because its more options for players, which is more fun.

    I tend to insist people do a UA Ranger one way or another so they can have more fun. And Class Variations is one of my favorite things to use.
    The alternate class features UA was amazing for ranger.

    Completely spits in the face of rogues and monks but nobody tends to care about them anyway.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    I’ll allow pretty much anything, provided that if it becomes a problem at the table i’ll work with the group to correct it.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    I don't allow UA as a general rule, some of it is clearly not thought out like a portion of the class feature variants. I have allowed specific UA when asked by a player about it because their character concept couldn't really be done with the published material at the time, but then the artificer came out while we were getting the game set up.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    I'd allow anything that is meaningfully weaker than the strongest official option. I despise power creep but i don't have any issues with UA beyond that. For this same reason, i'd also allow certain things without Multi-class that i wouldn't allow it with.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    QuickLyRaiNbow's Avatar

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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    It generally hasn't come up at my table. The one thing that has that's a no now is combining the Revised Ranger UA with the XGtE subclasses. Each are fine on their own, but they're separate attempts to fix the same problem, and my experience with Gloomstalker + RR was that it was a bit much.
    In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickLyRaiNbow View Post
    It generally hasn't come up at my table. The one thing that has that's a no now is combining the Revised Ranger UA with the XGtE subclasses. Each are fine on their own, but they're separate attempts to fix the same problem, and my experience with Gloomstalker + RR was that it was a bit much.
    For revised ranger + gloom stalker, I agree with you, because they double dip on certain things. But the Monster Slayer and Horizon Walker will still be fine. The biggest thing that should be done is giving bonus spells to the hunter and beast master, so that they keep up.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by thoroughlyS View Post
    The biggest thing that should be done is giving bonus spells to the hunter and beast master, so that they keep up.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    I haven't banned any on power level concerns. Lore Mastery was close. I consider UA deprecated for two reasons:

    1. A newer version of the same content is released in a revised UA, or the material is printed. In most cases, this is obvious (same name). In others, I do my best to follow the designer's intent. For example, if there is an interview on youtube or tweet from Jeremy Crawford about a newly released subclass, and they mention that it’s an evolution of another older UA class, I will deprecate the older subclass.

    2. It has also been clarified by JC that UA content older than about a year, with no further iteration or mention of continued development, can safely be deprecated. No printing, updates, radio silence for a whole year? That UA is a dead end design which will never see actual print in anything like its current state. Deprecated.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    Those of you banning the Undead Warlock, what would it take for you to consider its inclusion? It's a cool class that deserves play-testing in my opinion.

    The primary argument I've seen is the level 6 ability with eldritch blast, but Hexblade can put out similar damage (especially at higher levels).

    Level 6 Eldritch Blast with Hex, +4 Charisma, and corresponding class features (this is when Form of Dread has the largest advantage)-
    15 AC: Undead 25.5 vs Hexblade 22.6 (12.8% increase)
    20 AC: Undead 16.25 vs 14.6 (11.3% increase)
    As levels and ACs increase, Hexblade will do more damage. Plus, Hexblade gets a specter that can deal 3d6 damage a turn which will surpass the Undead at level 6.

    Because the subclass damage is arguably stronger earlier but worsens later, I feel it's more appropriate to nerf the level 1 features like the fear or general availability of Form of Dread. I'd just make the attack that fears ineligible for extra necrotic damage to add some decision-making.
    Last edited by Blinx; 2020-08-12 at 11:21 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    UA in my campaigns has a general yes, but I will nerf things that don't pass the sniff test.

    Example: Lore mastery spell secrets I would limit the damage change to 1 spell chosen at each long rest. On the saving throws I would have only the initial saving throw would be changed.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    I absolutely despise mystic and with the new subclasses you don’t even need it to fill that thematic role. I also have had to ban the Lore wizard because someone thought it’d be funny to read half the monster manual and then target the weakest saves of ever enemy.

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    Revived rogue is also one that is probably fine at most tables but I accidentally got banned at my table because it’s really easy to get two sneak attacks per round with them.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blinx View Post
    Those of you banning the Undead Warlock, what would it take for you to consider its inclusion? It's a cool class that deserves play-testing in my opinion.

    The primary argument I've seen is the level 6 ability with eldritch blast, but Hexblade can put out similar damage (especially at higher levels).

    Level 6 Eldritch Blast with Hex, +4 Charisma, and corresponding class features (this is when Form of Dread has the largest advantage)-
    15 AC: Undead 25.5 vs Hexblade 22.6 (12.8% increase)
    20 AC: Undead 16.25 vs 14.6 (11.3% increase)
    As levels and ACs increase, Hexblade will do more damage. Plus, Hexblade gets a specter that can deal 3d6 damage a turn which will surpass the Undead at level 6.

    Because the subclass damage is arguably stronger earlier but worsens later, I feel it's more appropriate to nerf the level 1 features like the fear or general availability of Form of Dread. I'd just make the attack that fears ineligible for extra necrotic damage to add some decision-making.
    The Hexblade is already too strong so that's a poor argument in my eyes. For me to allow Warlock UA, they should aim for where Fiend is.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernPhoenix View Post
    The Hexblade is already too strong so that's a poor argument in my eyes. For me to allow Warlock UA, they should aim for where Fiend is.
    Just curious since it's your table and you can do as you see fit, but do you ban hexblade? I agree it's too strong. It's just that the Undead's design philosophy appears to align with Hexblade's, and I think a comparison with its closest existing subclass is valuable. Whether Undead is a good addition with the mechanical overlap with Hexblade and thematic overlap with Undying is up for debate.

    My main point is that Undead is relatively close to Hexblade. If people can accept Hexblade (and many don't which is fine), then Undead isn't too wild an idea.
    Last edited by Blinx; 2020-08-14 at 03:38 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blinx View Post
    Just curious since it's your table and you can do as you see fit, but do you ban hexblade? I agree it's too strong. It's just that the Undead's design philosophy appears to align with Hexblade's, and I think a comparison with its closest existing subclass is valuable. Whether Undead is a good addition with the mechanical overlap with Hexblade and thematic overlap with Undying is up for debate.

    My main point is that Undead is relatively close to Hexblade. If people can accept Hexblade (and many don't which is fine), then Undead isn't too wild an idea.
    No, i allow straight Hexblade (but not multiclass). I still think it's too powerful and is a bad measuring stick for future content.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    When I am dming I allow the use of the UA feats as well as the revised ranger. I am willing to allow more than that but I like to be asked about it ahead of time.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Man_Over_Game's Avatar

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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    I'd allow almost anything with my review, so long as it doesn't mechanically/thematically replace something that already exists.

    Take the Brute Fighter subclass against the Champion. Both do basically the same goals, the Brute just does it a little bit better.

    In that example, I'd rather just change the Champion to be what it is you're looking for. Not only does it cut down on a bunch of outside content, but it gives me insight as to what it is you're looking for. Saying one thing sounds cool gives me one end of the spectrum, but saying this other similar thing does not now gives me a range to work with. Now I have twice as much information than I normally would to give you exactly what you'd want.

    Had I just said "Yeah, just play the Brute", we'd have less reason to interact with one another, less opportunities for me to find out what it is you're hoping to get out of DnD. I wouldn't know what you'd want out of the Brute that the Champion couldn't give you, you wouldn't have a reason to tell me, and so we maintain that distance.
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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    FabulousFizban's Avatar

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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    I don't worry too much about balance because I'm the DM, if they start abusing my game I'll kill their character. When it comes to UA I generally only have one rule: You better have your goddamn abilities committed to heart because I am not learning extra sh!t, and when I ask what some bull**** you just said does, I expect a ducking textbook recitation. Violate this rule and lose your UA privileges.
    Last edited by FabulousFizban; 2020-08-14 at 06:55 PM.
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  20. - Top - End - #50
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    Would Undead Warlock work for people if you could only apply one extra damage die per casting of any spell or cantrip? Meaning only one of your blasts would get the extra d10?

    It could still give the extra die to each attack of a thirsting blade multiattack, which could make for a viable alternative to hexblade for a melee warlock (far more MAD than hexblade though).

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakmala View Post
    There are a few that come to mind immediately:

    Tunnel Fighter Feat: Opportunity attacks without using your reaction are ridiculous, especially when combined with Pole Arm Master and Sentinel.

    Lore Wizard: Overpowered.

    Mystic: Equal to or better than every other class at everything. Just no.

    Storm Sorcerer: Mostly due to Forced Movement, which, when combined with a Warlock dip for EB and Repelling Blast, gets ridiculous.

    Undead Patron: The new one that was just published. Sorry, I'm not allowing a Warlock to generate 4D10 + 4D6 + CHA x2 and a fear effect at level 6.
    I agreed with you on both Mystic and Lore Wizard.
    I actually made two Homebrew Subclasses from the Wizard:

    Magus, which focused on the "I'm Smart" parts.

    Battle Mage, which focused on the "I'm Potent" parts.
    The ideas are in my Ancient Realms thread.

    I didn't like the UA Satyr Bard, But not from a purely mechanical view, because I haven't had anyone playtest it - but mostly from the RP side of the Subclass. Being virtually immune to retribution in all economic levels, would just break the Social aspect of my game.

    Theurgy Wizard went right out the window, for me.
    A wizard version of the Divine Soul Sorcerer, just wasn't what I wanted.

    In Ancient Realms, there's a long List of things I've tried to bring Hexblade Warlock back down off it's pedestal.
    I believe I settled with Medium armor, one martial weapon, and only the Shield spell.

    Raven Queen Warlock, I did get someone to playtest this, and found that I needed to change what the Raven Companion did. Being able to duplicate the Chain Pact at level one - made that Pact pointless to take, plus then being able to combine it with either Blade or Tome was just too much for me.
    I put in my changes into my Ancient Realms thread.

    Haven't gotten any playtesting on Fey Wanderer or Swarmkeeper Rangers, yet.

    I changed UA Primeval Guardian Ranger to being a Druid Circle.

    Haven't playtested the Circle of Stars Druid,yet.

    I want to add to the Circle of Wildfire Druid to include more Elemental types. WIP.

    Watch out for the UA Brute Fighter, as their additional damage, while less then a Monk's, stacks with their weapon damages. I'm thinking of limiting this to once per turn.

    Haven't playtested Astral Self Monk, but if they only get one extra attack as a Reaction, I can deal with it.

    IMO: Tranquility Monk was replaced by Mercy Monk, which the latter seems ok. Need more playtesting.

    I looked at the new version of Genie Warlocks, and it seemed an improvement. But, I still need to playtest it.

    I also said no to Onomancy Wizards, because I don't have the time to Name everything in the environment around them! And skipping that feature kills the RP for this Archetype.

    College of Spirits Bard, seems to make the Lore Bard pointless.... but, need to playtest.

    I'm changing Scribes Wizard from "College" to "University", and will be trying to playtest.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMango55
    Would Undead Warlock work for people if you could only apply one extra damage die per casting of any spell or cantrip? Meaning only one of your blasts would get the extra d10?

    It could still give the extra die to each attack of a thirsting blade multiattack, which could make for a viable alternative to hexblade for a melee warlock (far more MAD than hexblade though).
    That sounds like a reasonable debuff. So that even combined with Antagonizing Blast this does only 5d10+20 [5 Charisma] force damage (if all 4 blasts used on the same target) maximum at 17th level, instead of 8d10+20 force!
    Or even an improved version of the above by Yakmala.
    Update: I'm honestly thinking of blending the Undead Warlock into my Undeath Domain. Two similar themed Warlocks, where Undeath seems the most obviously better choice, I'm thinking "Not so much."

    Watcher Paladin, looks different enough from Ancients that I want to see more in my game.

    Glory Paladin, what was the UA Heroic Paladin - I honestly preferred the Heroic Oath as the name, but do understand why it was changed for the Mythic Odysseys of Theros campaign.

    Sorcerers: Sea and Stone need more playtesting.

    Clockwork Sorcerer... seemed kinda silly, but I'm willing to do more playtesting.

    Mercer's Wildemont:
    I'm still on the fence with the Wizard Archetypes.

    The Echo Knight Fighter looks very interesting.

    Tunnel Fighter Style I changed to Advantage to hit with their Reaction, if in a tight space.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2020-08-20 at 02:24 AM.
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  22. - Top - End - #52
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: DMs that allow UA material: What UA won't you allow? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMango55 View Post
    Would Undead Warlock work for people if you could only apply one extra damage die per casting of any spell or cantrip? Meaning only one of your blasts would get the extra d10?

    It could still give the extra die to each attack of a thirsting blade multiattack, which could make for a viable alternative to hexblade for a melee warlock (far more MAD than hexblade though).
    It would work for me if they just cut the extra damage entirely. That's literally my only complaint.

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