So, why the Gods don't use the Gates to release the Snarl into a pocket dimension?

[The Pilgrim]

I was thinking... The Dark One's Plan is to warp a Gate so that He gets the power to shift it to another plane and blackmail the Gods with the threat of releasing the Snarl on the back of one of them.

So, why don't the Gods actually do the same? Warp a Gate, shift it into a pocket dimension, release the Snarl, and forget about it forever and ever?

[Jason]

Because a pocket dimension can't imprison the Snarl. Or at least, not for very long?

[hroþila]

Another problem is that the gods presumably can't do it themselves, so they'd have to tell their followers. Which is forbidden.

[The Pilgrim]

Because a pocket dimension can't imprison the Snarl. Or at least, not for very long?

What if it's a really big pocket dimension? I mean, any of the God's domain planes seems to be big enough to contain it, given that Rich Burlew defiend the Plan as a "one-time Nuke". So creating a dimension big enough for the Snarl is well within the God's capabilities.

Another problem is that the gods presumably can't do it themselves, so they'd have to tell their followers. Which is forbidden.

So much forbidden that they told the whole story to the Scribblers. So, that's not a hurdle, either.

[hroþila]

So much forbidden that they told the whole story to the Scribblers. So, that's not a hurdle, either.

We have no idea how the Scribblers found out.

[Brutalitops]

The dimension has to go somewhere. Odds are most demiplanes are in the astral sea where the gods live or in the space between reality. The gods can't send the snarl to a place that does not exist so they put it in the most secure prison they have.

Also do remember that anything killed by the snarl is lost so the gods are very risk averse when it comes to the snarl lest it wipe them out.

Because if thor tried it then failed he might die then the northern gods would be weaker when creating the new world.

And if a pantheon dies then its the end of everything as two colours could not contain the snarl for very long so the gods are keen to play it safe.

[Jasdoif]

A tiny demiplane is a pocket dimension; so the gods have already been doing something of the sort.

[The Pilgrim]

We have no idea how the Scribblers found out.

The rule is not to talk about the Snarl with the mortals, unless they already know about it. And it doesn't takes much knowledge of the Snarl for a mortal to qualify as an exception of the rule. The Scribblers already knew about the Snarl, so the Gods could talk with them about it.

Even if the Scribblers are no longer, they had Lord Shojo, the whole Sapphire Guard, the Draketooth Clan, and whoever is in charge of Kraagor's Tomb, as people who already know about the Snarl.

[Roland Itiative]

Presumably, once the Snarl is released into the wider multiverse, the whole place becomes compromised until they can build another Material Plane around it. Releasing it into a pocket dimension would not work, because it seems to be able to move between planes without much issue (or else the gods wouldn't have much of a problem with it at all), unless the plane is constructed specifically to hold it.

And it seems like, for some as of yet unexplained reason, the only type of plane capable of holding the Snarl is a complete Material Plane with mortals living in it, or else the gods would probably already have tried separating the Snarl prison from the place where they keep the people they need for their own continued survival.

[Doug Lampert]

Because a pocket dimension can't imprison the Snarl. Or at least, not for very long?

All pocket dimensions in D&D that anyone can create tend to be part of the Astral Plane.

Nah, nothing could possibly go wrong with using 3-color quidity to make a pocket dimension in the Astral Plane and moving the Snarl's prison there. It's not like the snarl has a demonstrated ability to destroy the entire material plane after all. He'd never be able to break out of a pocket dimension.

And of course, you've now moved the prison to the astral. Seriously, what could go wrong?

[The Pilgrim]

All pocket dimensions in D&D that anyone can create tend to be part of the Astral Plane.

Nah, nothing could possibly go wrong with using 3-color quidity to make a pocket dimension in the Astral Plane and moving the Snarl's prison there. It's not like the snarl has a demonstrated ability to destroy the entire material plane after all. He'd never be able to break out of a pocket dimension.

And of course, you've now moved the prison to the astral. Seriously, what could go wrong?

But that's pretty much what The Dark One is intending to do. Blackmail the Gods with the threat of releasing the Snarl into one of their demiplanes in the Astral Plane.

Since Rich Burlew defined his Plan as an "one-time nuke", and not an "one-time mutually assured destruction", I assume that a demiplane can contain the Snarl. Otherwise, once released it would destroy everything related to the Astral Plane, including The Dark One's own demiplane.

[Ruck]

The rule is not to talk about the Snarl with the mortals, unless they already know about it. And it doesn't takes much knowledge of the Snarl for a mortal to qualify as an exception of the rule. The Scribblers already knew about the Snarl, so the Gods could talk with them about it.

But what evidence is there that they did?

[The Pilgrim]

But what evidence is there that they did?

The fact that Shojo knew about a Pantheon that was obliterated from existence millions of worlds ago. The Gods are pretty much the only source of information about that.

[Roland Itiative]

But that's pretty much what The Dark One is intending to do. Blackmail the Gods with the threat of releasing the Snarl into one of their demiplanes in the Astral Plane.

Since Rich Burlew defined his Plan as an "one-time nuke", and not an "one-time mutually assured destruction", I assume that a demiplane can contain the Snarl. Otherwise, once released it would destroy everything related to the Astral Plane, including The Dark One's own demiplane.

The Snarl doesn't seem to actively hunt the gods. It destroys them when they're around, but they don't seem to have much of a problem hiding from it in most situations. That's what happened after the Eastern Pantheon was destroyed, and it's also what happens every time the world is rebuilt. They wait for the Snarl to stop randomly rampaging, then they build a new prison.

The reason that The Dark One's plan is a one time nuke is precisely this "randomly rampaging" phase. If it happens while the Snarl is close to some gods, they will be caught in the destruction, just like the Eastern Pantheon was. But then the Snarl will eventually calm down, and the remaining gods will be allowed to make a new world.

So, releasing the Snarl into a pocket dimension would be, as far as we know, no different than the usual "destroy the world, wait for the Snarl to calm down, then build a new prison" plan. The pocket dimension itself would not be a working prison, and they would still need to build another Material Plane around the Snarl.

[Ruck]

The fact that Shojo knew about a Pantheon that was obliterated from existence millions of worlds ago. The Gods are pretty much the only source of information about that.

Well, that's still an assumption, although not a terribly unreasonable one, given how much Shojo seems to know and that Soon discovered a rift on his own.

As far as the question of your subject line, "Whatever solution you think up that involves [the gods] fixing it for [the mortals]..."

[Psyren]

Any pocket dimension or other enclosure they made would have the same problem - less real than the Snarl (3 colors instead of 4) and so would fail to contain it.

That's without considering the fact that the world itself is the only thing the gods could agree on long enough to actually make. Expecting them to cooperate long enough to make an entire other dimension without risking a second Snarl is ludicrous.

[Synesthesy]

But isn't it exactly what the Gods do everytime, seal the Snarl in a dimension that cointains only the Snarl? Only that after some time the Snarl manage to escape....

[hroþila]

The fact that Shojo knew about a Pantheon that was obliterated from existence millions of worlds ago. The Gods are pretty much the only source of information about that.

There's another possible source for that info: the bearer of the Crimson Mantle.

[The Pilgrim]

There's another possible source for that info: the bearer of the Crimson Mantle.

Anyway, the Scribblers knew about the Snarl, thus they qualify as people the Gods can talk with about it.

[brian 333]

A tiny demiplane is a pocket dimension; so the gods have already been doing something of the sort.

This. I came to post this exact thing, but with lots more words.

[The Pilgrim]

A tiny demiplane is a pocket dimension; so the gods have already been doing something of the sort.

That's actually a good answer. But not one that adresses my doubts.

Let me elaborate.

I assume the Gods keep imprisioning the Snarl in the Material Prime because that's were the Snarl lies. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense for them to keep imprisoning it in a Planet populated by people who will eventually get erradicated by the Snarl. Specially since those people are the God's source of nourishment. You don't **** in the place where you eat.

I assume also that the Snarl is unable to perform planal travel, as it has never moved into any other Planes during the many interim periods between worlds.

I don't know if the Gods can imprison the Snarl in any other Plane but the Prime. Maybe the Prime is the only Plane with the necessary elements (threads of reality, etc.) that allow the Gods to build the Prison. That would explain why they haven't attempted to move it into another Plane. Otherwise, it would be practical to do so. Even if they had to keep making prisons for the Snarl in the new Plane, at least those prisons wouldn't be populated by their mortal creations.

However, we have The Dark One's Plan. It involves the threat of releasing the Snarl into a dimension in a Plane different from the Prime, either in the Outer Planes or the Astral (depending on where the demiplane domains of the respetive Gods lie). So, if he does that, the Snarl will end up outside of the Prime, and in either the Outer Plane or the Astral. What happens then? Can the Gods imprison it there?

If they can, then my question in the OP is the logical conclussion. Why don't they use the Gates to move the Snarl away (or just built an one-time-use Planar Gate specifically for that purpose), so that they wouldn't need to keep replicating Creation again and again in order to mantain the Snarl imprisioned? They could just lock it in a demiplane on the Astral and just keep remaking the prisions there, without ruining their source of nourishment in the Prime each time.

If the Gods, however, cannot imprison the Snarl in any other Plane but the Prime (which would make a lot of sense), then The Dark One's Plan is a Mutually Assured Destruction scenario. Because TDO lives in the same Plane than the other Gods, so He would be destroyed too by the Snarl if He releases it there, alongside everything else in the Plane. Yet The Giant described the Plan as an "one time nuke", not an "one time M.A.D.". And Thor would have likely informed Durkon about it, as it's a pretty good argument to get TDO into surrendering the Plan.

With the information currently presented in the Comic, I'm inclined to assume that the Gods can, in fact, imprison the Snarl in it's new location, if TDO releases it. Otherwise they would be A LOT more concerned by the issue. But then, why don't they do it? Why don't move the Snarl away from the Plane they get their food from?

[JavaScribe]

With the information currently presented in the Comic, I'm inclined to assume that the Gods can, in fact, imprison the Snarl in it's new location, if TDO releases it. Otherwise they would be A LOT more concerned by the issue. But then, why don't they do it? Why don't move the Snarl away from the Plane they get their food from?

Maybe it would be harder to secure said plane against mad wizards & gods seeking to release it again than the Prime Material Plane.

[dancrilis]

I assume the Gods keep imprisioning the Snarl in the Material Prime because that's were the Snarl lies.

I assume that the Gods create the material plane around wherever the Snarl becomes dorment panel 1 and 2 (kindof).

I assume also that the Snarl is unable to perform planal travel

Panel 4 indicates that the Gods hoped it wouldn't find them, not that is was safe there.
Also panel 2 in the first link indicates that is is already in a different plane so since it is able to gain access to the material plane from it that implies it can cross planes.

[Jasdoif]

Yet The Giant described the Plan as an "one time nuke", not an "one time M.A.D.".

Huh, that's not how I saw it:

There is some misunderstanding of the mechanics involved here.

1.) If the Dark One succeeds at the ritual, he gains the ability to move the Gate. If he does this and moves the Gate to, say, Valhalla, then the Snarl pops out of the Gate and kills the gods on Valhalla. Then it destroys all of Valhalla until it's a big empty void-plane. And then...nothing. That's it. The Dark One does not have a way to put the Snarl back into the prison after he's unleashed it. The Snarl just lives on Valhalla now, or what's left of it.

2.) The Gate connects the prison to another plane. When the Dark One moves it, it now connects the prison to a different plane. So after the Snarl is unleashed on Plane 1, then the Dark One moves the Gate to Plane 2, it now connects the prison to Plane 2—it does not connect Planes 1 and 2.

3.) But that doesn't really matter because once the Snarl is free on any plane other than its prison, then literally any planar gateway could potentially allow it to change planes. The Dark One would cease to have any control over its location, and in fact it would be far more likely that some of the evil gods would start spamming big flashy portals to the Dark One's domain until the Snarl took the bait and went through.

4.) Alternately, once any Northern god dies, the deadlock at the Godsmoot is broken and the vote resolves (votes from dead gods don't count). Even if the world was "saved" they would be free to immediately take a second vote to destroy the world—or even just to kill all goblins—depriving the Dark One of his followers and ultimately killing him over the long term.

The Snarl is like a nuclear bomb. You can get a lot of leverage out of owning a nuclear bomb, because no one wants it dropped on them. But if everyone knows you only own one and then you use it on someone...then everyone left knows you don't have it anymore. Sucks for your one target, but it won't end well for you, either.

That's why the Dark One's actual plan is to use the threat of moving the Gate to extract concessions from the other gods and deter preemptive strikes against his followers. Those concessions will be significantly less than, "All of you be my slaves forever," because at that point, the calculus would change and some of the gods might risk the bomb getting dropped on one of them to end the Dark One's threat to their friends and family.

Also, Thor not knowing about the planet in the rifts doesn't suggest the gods are keeping a close eye on the Snarl; which is kind of odd given how much of their existence is defined by (and threatened by) it. If I were to throw together a theory....I'd guess the gods don't know all that much about the Snarl beyond some notion that it reacts when they poke at it, that they basically got lucky that their first attempt to trap the Snarl actually worked, and none of them are willing to risk their existence on finding out if trapping it somewhere else is going to work; and the mortals on the world to serve as...canaries in a coal mine, basically; early warning for when rifts form. (I suppose it's also possible they've actually experienced two-color Snarls and thus can extrapolate what a four-color Snarl could be capable of, but that's rather speculative.)

[Psyren]

They have to trap it "in a prison of manifested reality." That means a world, and (unfortunately) that likely means a populated one. It's logical to assume that they would not be risking a bunch of Souls (their food source) if there was any other option for sealing it up.

In other words, we can assume that if trapping it in an empty planet with no risk of any dead followers was a viable option, they'd have done it. Even the most spiteful evil gods probably don't want to risk starving.

Huh, that's not how I saw it:


Also, Thor not knowing about the planet in the rifts doesn't suggest the gods are keeping a close eye on the Snarl; which is kind of odd given how much of their existence is defined by (and threatened by) it. If I were to throw together a theory....I'd guess the gods don't know all that much about the Snarl beyond some notion that it reacts when they poke at it, that they basically got lucky that their first attempt to trap the Snarl actually worked, and none of them are willing to risk their existence on finding out if trapping it somewhere else is going to work; and the mortals on the world to serve as...canaries in a coal mine, basically; early warning for when rifts form. (I suppose it's also possible they've actually experienced two-color Snarls and thus can extrapolate what a four-color Snarl could be capable of, but that's rather speculative.)

Hmm... Perhaps they can't see inside the rifts, which are after all (or at least the being inside) composed of a combination of all their quiddity, and somehow more lethal to gods than even mortals. Perhaps some quality of that quiddity keeps them from seeing what's inside, or perhaps they haven't tried (maybe one of them peering in riles the Snarl up and gets it going early.)

The only god we know to have actually looked inside the rifts is The Dark One, and his quiddity has no match within the Snarl's makeup.

Another option is that the Snarl itself - which is after all composed of threads of reality - IS the planet in the rift. And that something (or someone?) causes it to alternate between peaceful blue world and god-killing abomination.

[RatElemental]

This is what the gods are already doing, and as we have seen, the Snarl can and does break out of this exact scenario.

[mjasghar]

But that's pretty much what The Dark One is intending to do. Blackmail the Gods with the threat of releasing the Snarl into one of their demiplanes in the Astral

Those aren’t Demiplanes
What you see when they fly through the astral are colour pools - effectively portals from the astral to various outer planes within which various gods have their homes
The Dark One would be suicidal to release it on the astral as it could then attack his home plane - likely the equivalent of Acheron
However, the wording from Rich suggests that there aren’t many permanent portals the Snarl can use since he says the Plan would have the Snarl end up on one plane and sit there until offered portals to other places. And yet there seems to be a planar society which depends on freely available portals

[The Pilgrim]

Huh, that's not how I saw it

Thank you for sharing The Giant's relevant comment in the matter.

He confirms that the Snarl remains in a Plane once released in it, unable to move into antoher Plane on it's own. He also confirms that the Snarl can be moved between planes by third parties with the usage of portals.

Now, after reading all the contributions in this thread, the best answer I come by for my question in the OP is the following:

..........

Any Plane can contain the Snarl, but it would involve letting the Snarl destroy the whole Plane in the process, with all it's creatures in it. That doesn't sounds like a right thing to do. And anyway the Material Plane is likely the only one the Gods can make again once destroyed, as the Outer Planes are made out of ideas, not reality threads.

The Gods could attempt to temporary hold the Snarl in a dimensional prison in another Plane, but it's likely that the Material Plane is the only one with the required elements to build such a prison, as it's the only one made out of reality threads.

Even then, it may pay off for the Gods to surrender one Outer Plane in order to get rid of the Snarl. However, it's probably next to impossible to get all the Gods to agree in which Outer Plane to surrender. Good Gods will want to surrender an Evil Outer Plane, Evil Gods will want to surrender a Good one, and Neutral Gods will oppose the destruction of any Outer Plane on general principle, as it would generate imbalance in the Great Wheel.

And, in the end, if they release the Snarl in a Plane without locking it, they leave it as a free rampaging unopposable deicidal moster available for use by any God, powerful Outsider, or mortal with access to the right magic.

..........

That solves a plot hole in my head canon. Thank you to everyone who has contributed, and feel free to continue sharing your thougths on the matter.

[Marsala]

While luring the Snarl out of the world to trap it in another plane was not an option before, something occurred to me: with the Dark One's help, they could potentially shift the last Gate to another plane, lure the Snarl out, and form a new, four-quiddity world around it. This would be the ideal solution since the old world would remain intact, the new world would be much more stable, and the Dark One could get a very good deal for goblinoids in the new world. Too bad there's no trust that would allow for that.

Of course, even if they did try that, something would probably go wrong like the Snarl not being interested in leaving its home due to its mysterious newfound tranquility. I have a hunch that Kraagor has something to do with that.

[Dion]

My headcannon is this: the snarl can’t leave the material plane.

The snarl can reach through gates — and it might have a very long reach — but its body stays on the material plane while it does so.

So, TDOs plan, in my headcannon, isn’t to *move* the snarl to a gods plane. The ritual is just to give the snarl *access* to reach into a gods plane.

But, meh... I try to be wrong about five things before breakfast every day, and it’s almost lunchtime.