Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

[Metastachydium]

Remember that for a while she was part of Xykon's inner circle. Whether the gods liked her or not, she was their agent in his camp and their best bet to contact redcloak in the same way that Durkon is currently doing in the comic. The problem with that is of course that tsukiko was not raised from the dead, quite the opposite, in fact.

It's not a problem, if we don't assume the Twelve wished to contact Redcloak. SoD, and in particular the scene where

Spoiler: SoD

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Big Purple learns about the existence of Lirian's Rift when he loses a cleric to it

seems to imply that gods have easy access to information their clerics have access to. Which would mean that Tsukiko could (unwittingly) serve as the eye and ear of the Twelve in Gobbotopia.

[Keltest]

Its also entirely possible that because Tsukiko was simply doing her evil cleric thing, they felt no need to react to her. As we have now learned, it isnt like the world is some huge investment that they cant afford to let go. They'd just prefer not to.

[dude123nice]

It's entirely possible that one of the twelve gods presides over death, and actually got a massive boost from all the souls connected from the battle. That's probably also the got T would worship. Since her actions haven't threatened the actual worship of the pantheon, said god would actually probably be glad about what she's done. I mean, the whole premise of an evil god of a pantheon is that him and his followers are overall opposed to the pantheon as a whole, as long as an existential threat doesn't rear its ugly head.

[Peelee]

I mean, the whole premise of an evil god of a pantheon is that him and his followers are overall opposed to the pantheon as a whole

How's that now?

[KorvinStarmast]

How's that now?

Probably thinking of an example like {scrubbed} ... that's what I got out of the post.

[Metastachydium]

It's entirely possible that one of the twelve gods presides over death, and actually got a massive boost from all the souls connected from the battle. That's probably also the got T would worship. Since her actions haven't threatened the actual worship of the pantheon, said god would actually probably be glad about what she's done. I mean, the whole premise of an evil god of a pantheon is that him and his followers are overall opposed to the pantheon as a whole, as long as an existential threat doesn't rear its ugly head.

Doubt that. The Twelve are worshipped as a pantheon, which would mean that they receive Belief, Worship and Dedication collectively from their followers, whereas the souls presumably end up where they belong (so unless the vast majority of the noble defenders of Azure City were Chaotic/Neutral Evil, I seriously doubt that an Evil god of death would get more souls than the rest of the pantheon).

[Vinyadan]

There's a fun fact about the map of the South that was linked earlier: one of the lands seem to be inhabited by the undead. Ghostlands, Deadsburg, Haunted Woods. https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Souther..._Continent.png So one of the Twelve being into undead doesn't seem too unlikely, unless it's like Gobbotopia (an unwanted invasion).

[dude123nice]

How's that now?

The Evil God wants to overthrow the rest of the Pantheon and become its top God, the way Loki would probably be doing in normal circumstances and Hel is doing right now, and so he is ok with screwing over the majority of the pantheon, once again, like Hell is doing. Since, as I've already stated, this action doesn't actually threaten the pantheon in a significant enough way, it could be considered an advantageous moove for certainn goals of an Evil

Doubt that. The Twelve are worshipped as a pantheon, which would mean that they receive Belief, Worship and Dedication collectively from their followers, whereas the souls presumably end up where they belong (so unless the vast majority of the noble defenders of Azure City were Chaotic/Neutral Evil, I seriously doubt that an Evil god of death would get more souls than the rest of the pantheon).

Rat has already showed himself willing to act against the wishes of the pantheon as a whole. And you don't take into consideration other possible advantages, like, for example, that the event created a change for Kubota or other evil nobles to rise to power. That would certainly have an effect on the future overall alignment of the nation.

[Peelee]

The Evil God wants to overthrow the rest of the Pantheon and become its top God, the way Loki would probably be doing in normal circumstances and Hel is doing right now, and so he is ok with screwing over the majority of the pantheon, once again, like Hell is doing. Since, as I've already stated, this action doesn't actually threaten the pantheon in a significant enough way, it could be considered an advantageous moove for certainn goals of an Evil

So far we've seen one, and only one, example of that (Hel). How is that every evil gods' premise?

[dude123nice]

So far we've seen one, and only one, example of that (Hel). How is that every evil gods' premise?

I'm not giving a definite answer, none of us has a definite answer for that either way. I'm giving possible solutions {scrubbed}. Most of the population lived, and the invasion gave a chance for evil nobles to rise to power.

[Peelee]

I'm not giving a definite answer, none of us has a definite answer for that either way.

You seemed to have a definite statement earlier that "the whole premise of an evil god of a pantheon is that him and his followers are overall opposed to the pantheon as a whole". I'm just asking how, exactly, you justify that conclusion. Not that one or two have acted that way - that this is their "whole premise."

[Keltest]

You seemed to have a definite statement earlier that "the whole premise of an evil god of a pantheon is that him and his followers are overall opposed to the pantheon as a whole". I'm just asking how, exactly, you justify that conclusion. Not that one or two have acted that way - that this is their "whole premise."

From a strictly D&D perspective, he's actually correct. Evil gods (and evil outsiders) exist pretty much entirely to drive conflict beyond what would otherwise be occurring with a big happy Good-And-Neutral family of gods. They cant actually win overall or be in charge, because D&D evil is self destructive, and fighting gods is usually beyond the scope of PCs.

[Peelee]

From a strictly D&D perspective, he's actually correct. Evil gods (and evil outsiders) exist pretty much entirely to drive conflict beyond what would otherwise be occurring with a big happy Good-And-Neutral family of gods. They cant actually win overall or be in charge, because D&D evil is self destructive, and fighting gods is usually beyond the scope of PCs.

And from a Stickworld perspective? The Twelve Gods are an incredibly tightly-nit pantheon, to the point that they are worshipped as a whole and will work together to take certain actions as a whole, as we have seen. Which alone flies in the face of the idea that the evil gods in the Southern pantheon are opposed to the pantheon as their entire premise.

[dude123nice]

You seemed to have a definite statement earlier that "the whole premise of an evil god of a pantheon is that him and his followers are overall opposed to the pantheon as a whole". I'm just asking how, exactly, you justify that conclusion. Not that one or two have acted that way - that this is their "whole premise."

Well, to amend that statement a bit, it should be "an evil god of a pantheon that seems overly good aligned". Since an evil god's wants and ideals would naturally be opposed to such a pantheon, and since evil gods are, by their nature, immoral, it's normal to assume that such a god would be willing to undermine the rest of the pantheon to rise to power.

[Keltest]

And from a Stickworld perspective? The Twelve Gods are an incredibly tightly-nit pantheon, to the point that they are worshipped as a whole and will work together to take certain actions as a whole, as we have seen. Which alone flies in the face of the idea that the evil gods in the Southern pantheon are opposed to the pantheon as their entire premise.

Having the capacity to cooperate does not mean that they wouldnt totally go off and do their own thing if they had the opportunity to do so without consequence. Indeed, Rat actually did break with his pantheon to act on his own agenda when The Dark One discovered the rifts.

[Potatopeelerkin]

A few things:

Some of the gods (read: Loki) seem to be OK with not necessarily doing what's best for the god in all situations as long as they follow the teachings. Or they may believe having faith in and supporting the god doesn't necessarily mean you should support everyone else who also worships the god.

The gods of the South also have greater dominion over, well, the South. Despite years of infighting in the West every kingdom in the West still seems to worship the Western gods, so perhaps it doesn't really matter which mortal leader rules in the South either. Maybe they all end up worshipping the Southern gods anyway, because that's who has the most power there. Maybe they felt that a loss to the goblins was inevitable, and Tsukiko was a way to help spread the faith of the Twelve to the new leaders. Though the fact that the goblins have far less interest in the traditional pantheons due to their history and the existence of TDO may throw a wrench in that theory.

Azure City is also not the only place that worships the Twelve, or even the biggest. According to GDGU,

Spoiler: GDGU

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The Realm of the Dragon and the Azurites are practically the same people with the same faith and culture, just with different leaders and politics.

[Darth Paul]

Tsukiko was a godawful cleric. The sermons were rambling, and the wights gobbled all the coffee and donuts on the refreshments table afterwards. The only guy who protested about how pushy they were got level-drained and turned into another wight. I could see where that was going, so I kept my mouth shut and just switched denominations the next week.

They came around with some pamphlets a few times after that to try and get me back, but I hid behind the couch and pretended I wasn't home until they got bored and went away...

[Gurgeh]

Probably thinking of an example like {scrub the post, scrub the quote} ... that's what I got out of the post.

{scrubbed}

[Vinyadan]

I think you might want to familiarise yourself with Roman mythology a tad more before making this comparison.

"Why is my hair out?"

[Peelee]

Well, to amend that statement a bit, it should be "an evil god of a pantheon that seems overly good aligned". Since an evil god's wants and ideals would naturally be opposed to such a pantheon, and since evil gods are, by their nature, immoral, it's normal to assume that such a god would be willing to undermine the rest of the pantheon to rise to power.

Ok, I getcha. I'll totally agree on that.

Having the capacity to cooperate does not mean that they wouldnt totally go off and do their own thing if they had the opportunity to do so without consequence. Indeed, Rat actually did break with his pantheon to act on his own agenda when The Dark One discovered the rifts.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean said God would be opposed to the entire Pantheon any more than Thor is opposed to the entire Northern pantheon by trying to get this deal with TDO. That just means that different people are different.

[KorvinStarmast]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{scrubbed}

[Keltest]

Ok, I getcha. I'll totally agree on that.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean said God would be opposed to the entire Pantheon any more than Thor is opposed to the entire Northern pantheon by trying to get this deal with TDO. That just means that different people are different.

I dont understand this objection. Evil will try and take others down a peg when the opportunity presents itself by definition. They can be more or less civilized about it by comparison, But if you are Evil then you are trying to look after #1 while making sure to keep #2 down (as opposed to neutral, who looks after #1 but doesnt care what #2 is up to). Thats why theyre evil. If theyre cooperating, its because to do otherwise would hurt them in some way, not because they genuinely believe in cooperation and group interest for their own sakes.

[Peelee]

I dont understand this objection. Evil will try and take others down a peg when the opportunity presents itself by definition. They can be more or less civilized about it by comparison, But if you are Evil then you are trying to look after #1 while making sure to keep #2 down (as opposed to neutral, who looks after #1 but doesnt care what #2 is up to). Thats why theyre evil. If theyre cooperating, its because to do otherwise would hurt them in some way, not because they genuinely believe in cooperation and group interest for their own sakes.

Evil has just as many flavors as Good or Neutral. An Evil god can still fully recognize that the pantheon makes them stronger and not want to eliminate or even take down a peg the rest of the pantheon even if given the opportunity. The philosophy of enlightened self-interest is not necessarily Good, but can easily be adapted to Evil. Heck, that's basically how I'm playing a character in a campaign I've got going on right now. Dude is inarguably Evil, but will not act antagonistically or move against the party because it is in his best interests to not do that. He's not a "cool" Evil or shades-of-grey Evil or designed-to-question-how-we-view-morality Evil. He's just Evil, but also practical.

I'm sure there are some Evil gods that are also practical and subscribe to enlightened self-interest.

[dmc91356]

I dont understand this objection. Evil will try and take others down a peg when the opportunity presents itself by definition. They can be more or less civilized about it by comparison, But if you are Evil then you are trying to look after #1 while making sure to keep #2 down (as opposed to neutral, who looks after #1 but doesnt care what #2 is up to). Thats why theyre evil. If theyre cooperating, its because to do otherwise would hurt them in some way, not because they genuinely believe in cooperation and group interest for their own sakes.

I seem to remember a statement by Rich concerning a D&D party where they just fundamentally did not understand that the two bad guys in the campaign were friends and, even though evil, treated each other accordingly. When the party tried to get one of the bad guys to turn on the other, things did not go well for that plan. I think that is a more nuanced view about evil than what you are presenting here.

[Peelee]

I seem to remember a statement by Rich concerning a D&D party where they just fundamentally did not understand that the two bad guys in the campaign were friends and, even though evil, treated each other accordingly. When the party tried to get one of the bad guys to turn on the other, things did not go well for that plan. I think that is a more nuanced view about evil than what you are presenting here.

Indeed. "Evil" does not necessarily mean "kicks every puppy they see".

[Darth Paul]

Indeed. "Evil" does not necessarily mean "kicks every puppy they see".

For that matter, there's a very good reason for the trope "Even Evil Has Loved Ones".

I think the debate is whether having Evil (capital E) goals makes you a bad person. Well, on one level, yes, I think it does, by definition; but on another, it doesn't have to mean that one is only ever looking out for number one, when looking out for others to some extent means they owe you a favor and you're going to be able to cash it in down the road.

I picture Rat as a member of a bureaucracy, he's Evil, yes, but he knows the rest of the bureaucracy probably isn't going anywhere and if he tore it all down, just look at the work he would have to do afterward. He has his hands full with the Evil portfolio, let the others take care of their sectors as long as they let his followers alone.

[M. Arillius]

As per comic 1143, Rat was apparently furious with Azure City's fall. So he definitely wasn't approving of it and probably would have, along with the rest of the pantheon, zapped Tsukiko of her cleric powers the moment she turned on the ramparts or even before that. Hell, just the act of trying to get with the guys invading Azure City might have been enough for her to lose it.

More over, Rat is probably hella enjoying the pantheon stuff. Politics are a breeding ground for sociopathic monsters in the real world and that definitely held true for Azure City. Even some LE, noble intentioned evils can probably fit in all of that jazz.

Plenty of room for give and take of Tyrants, Criminal Lords, Neutral Mediators or Good and Noble leaders. Cycles of it, you know? And plenty of time to play against the other gods in his pantheon in a way that never hurt his culture. The idea being, simply, that they were always competing for the best of their people through their followers. Whoever holds the seat clearly won it and so is the strongest, but they have to keep it from other contenders. It has all the 'we wanted to do something cause bored' 'giants in a playground' 'care about my followers, good or evil' and even 'believe in a cause or have a personal goal' room for the pantheon to enjoy.

So the idea that he'd be down for the fall of Azure City seems improbable, particularly if the comic went out of it's way to say Rat was furious about it's fall.

It's possible, still, that Tsukiko was his follower, and that he kept her hanging around to try and work with Redcloak or learn what they were up to, definitely, but that's a very long play when the city hadn't even fallen yet. And considering she was a high level Mystic Theurge, she probably played a big part in the battle outside even if we didn't see it. One high level spell caster is more then enough to change a battle in some cases, nonetheless one with access to both sets of spell slots who was specifically allowed to prepare combat spells that morning to fight for Azure City.

I think it's more likely she had an alternate source. A demigod, a class that didn't require it, a god from another region, etc.

[Sebastian]

In order to cast cleric spells through the prestige class, i believe she needs at least a few straight cleric levels.

Technically, one must be able to cast divine spells, so she don't need to have cleric levels. She could have levels in, I don't know, Archivist, which would also be appropriate to her character.

[danielxcutter]

Well that certainly would explain why her Wisdom seemed to be as functional as one of her wights going skinny-dipping in holy water.

[Edea]

...come to think of it, did we ever see Tsukiko rebuke/bolster any of her undead, or even carry an unholy symbol?

In fact...she didn't even know Redcloak had done it to her own wights. If she'd been a cleric she'd have recognized what he'd done immediately.

Yeah, I also don't think her divine magic's clerical. It's coming from somewhere else.