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    Default Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    She casted divine spells but she never ever mentioned a deity, not once, which is quite uncommon for a cleric...
    unless she was a godless cleric who drew powers from concepts / ideas.
    Your opinion?
    Last edited by Conradine; 2020-08-08 at 04:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    If I had to guess, I'd say she followed The Rat, as its the known evil Southern God. Then again, she helped destroy the city that followed all those gods.

    Hmm, tricky one this. She didn't seem all that devoted to a cause or idea too. Unless we count undead?

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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    I always assumed she was a follower of the Twelve Gods as a whole. You probably don't need to be super zealous to derive power from a god (or a pantheon, as the case may be).
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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    I always assumed she was a follower of the Twelve Gods as a whole. You probably don't need to be super zealous to derive power from a god (or a pantheon, as the case may be).
    Then why would they keep giving her spells after she helped destroy their capital?

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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna_Mayflower View Post
    Then why would they keep giving her spells after she helped destroy their capital?
    It wasn't their capital, it was one of the main Southern cities.

    Anyway, the Twelve work as a pantheon, and there's little indication that they would all agree to do something like that, not because they're happy that Azure City was taken but because of the implications. Evil gods wouldn't necessarily like the precedent this would create because it could likely be used against anyone plotting an Evil scheme in the future, as those could have bad consequences for other cities or nations too. Especially because stripping Tsukiko of her divine magic wouldn't actually have changed anything (they presumably couldn't take away the Inflict Critical Wounds that Tsukiko used during the battle to heal Xykon even if they had wanted to because that one had already been granted, and she didn't do anything critical after that).

    Alternatively, the Twelve might have agreed that Tsukiko had a real shot at exposing Redcloak's true plan to Xykon, which would have been the immediate end of the Snarl threat, at least for the time being. And in order to do that she needed to keep her place in the Gobbotopian hierarchy, for which she needed her spells.
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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    She casted divine spells but she never ever mentioned a deity, not once, which is quite uncommon for a cleric...
    That's not technically true (v. page no. 2, panel no. 1).

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna_Mayflower View Post
    Then why would they keep giving her spells after she helped destroy their capital?
    Yeah, I've never understood that one, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    It wasn't their capital, it was one of the main Southern cities.
    It housed their political leader and it was the center of their culture as far as we know. The name of their culture also comes from Azure City. Azurite. If that's not a capital site in any uncertain terms I'm curious what would count towards it?
    Last edited by Razade; 2020-08-08 at 05:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    It housed their political leader and it was the center of their culture as far as we know. The name of their culture also comes from Azure City. Azurite. If that's not a capital site in any uncertain terms I'm curious what would count towards it?
    Much more importantly, the High Priest of the Twelve God resided in the city and took an active part in defending it. This would imply that Azure City likely housed the headquarters of their church.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-08-08 at 05:50 AM. Reason: Added a link.

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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    It housed their political leader and it was the center of their culture as far as we know. The name of their culture also comes from Azure City. Azurite. If that's not a capital site in any uncertain terms I'm curious what would count towards it?
    It was the capital of the Azurites, not the capital of the South. There are other Southern states that worship the Twelve.

    I'm not saying Azure City wasn't important to the Twelve. I'm saying there's more to the South (and to the Twelve) than Azure City.
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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    We've seen that the Northen pantheon has Demi-Gods that were on standby on the Godsmoot. Odds are that the same applied to the other pantheons as well. So maube she were a Cleric of one of them.


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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Much more importantly, the High Priest of the Twelve God resided in the city and took an active part in defending it. This would imply that Azure City likely housed the headquarters of their church.
    Several points:

    First, by Word Of Giant, the Twelve are worshipped as a pantheon by Southerners of all alignments.

    Second, I imagine that it's very rare for a god to cut off one of their clerics, and even more so when it's an entire pantheon that would presumably have to agree on doing it. (Paladins presumably have more explicit rules for when they Fall).

    Third, it's possible that "The High Priest of the Twelve Gods" was the High Priest for Azure City, and that other countries might have their own High Priests.
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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    I was under the imprssion that you don't need to be devoted to a god to wield divine magic, as druids (and rangers, I think?) can do just fine. Are mystic theurge not in the same boat?
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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I was under the imprssion that you don't need to be devoted to a god to wield divine magic, as druids (and rangers, I think?) can do just fine. Are mystic theurge not in the same boat?
    In order to cast cleric spells through the prestige class, i believe she needs at least a few straight cleric levels.
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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I was under the imprssion that you don't need to be devoted to a god to wield divine magic, as druids (and rangers, I think?) can do just fine. Are mystic theurge not in the same boat?
    To be a MT you need to have both a base arcane spellcasting class and a divine one.


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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    In order to cast cleric spells through the prestige class, i believe she needs at least a few straight cleric levels.
    Nope. It's the most common way to go, but not necessary. IIRC it requires 2nd level spell casting ability in arcane and divine, plus 8 ranks each of Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Religion). So you could be a ranger/bard and go MT - though that would be a remarkably poor idea.

    Druid is pretty much the only other core class you'd want for MT, and they have Arcane Heirophant more built for them (though that's not core).

    Also, on Azure City, I'm also in the "not the capital of the southern continent" camp. There are five nations, AC was just likely the biggest metropolis.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-08-08 at 08:56 AM.
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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Nope. It's the most common way to go, but not necessary. IIRC it requires 2nd level spell casting ability in arcane and divine, plus 8 ranks each of Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Religion). So you could be a ranger/bard and go MT - though that would be a remarkably poor idea.

    Druid is pretty much the only other core class you'd want for MT, and they have Arcane Heirophant more built for them (though that's not core).

    Also, on Azure City, I'm also in the "not the capital of the southern continent" camp. There are five nations, AC was just likely the biggest metropolis.
    Wouldnt going ranger/bard MT give her progression on the ranger and bard spell tables?
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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Wouldnt going ranger/bard MT give her progression on the ranger and bard spell tables?
    Yes. Since they are not full casters, there's not that much progression (I think they top out at 4th level spells? Can't remember exactly), which is why it's not a great idea to go that route.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yes. Since they are not full casters, there's not that much progression (I think they top out at 4th level spells? Can't remember exactly), which is why it's not a great idea to go that route.
    Im confused now. You said i was wrong, but she DOES need cleric levels, specifically, to cast cleric spells through MT. using a ranger would give her ranger spells instead.
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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    She could be a favoured soul, I think (I didn't check the geekery thread). And, if one of the Twelve is into undeads, he might have vouched for her, as her boss was undead and she was making them herself.
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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Also, on Azure City, I'm also in the "not the capital of the southern continent" camp. There are five nations, AC was just likely the biggest metropolis.
    Of course it isn't. Hinjo wouldn't have called the other four nations their presumed allies if it were so (and that's just what we know from the online strips; provided I am not mistaken, there's additional evidence for the same position in Good Deeds as well).
    I am aware that my responding to Razade might have been misleading, but I was merely implying it's a ”capital” of sorts for the Church of the Twelve.
    Speaking of which…

    Quote Originally Posted by ReaderAt2046 View Post
    Several points:

    First, by Word Of Giant, the Twelve are worshipped as a pantheon by Southerners of all alignments.

    Second, I imagine that it's very rare for a god to cut off one of their clerics, and even more so when it's an entire pantheon that would presumably have to agree on doing it. (Paladins presumably have more explicit rules for when they Fall).

    Third, it's possible that "The High Priest of the Twelve Gods" was the High Priest for Azure City, and that other countries might have their own High Priests.
    1. Precisely. That's what made me think they have a single, unified church with a single unified clergy.
    2. Might be, but when a cleric (of sorts) of a unified pantheon goes rogue and starts killing other clerics of the same pantheon to aid an irreligious guy and the high priest of a god hostile to the pantheon in question who are there to destroy a holy order under the patronage of, again, said pantheon and maybe massacre or enslave a few tens of thousands of their followers… That should perhaps be one of those rare occasions when the idea should perhaps easily get the backing of a comfortable majority.
    3. All other high priests we have seen so far (Redcloak and the Northerners) were the high priests of someone rather than somewhere. Naturally, theit might be a number of autocephalous churches dedicated to the Southern gods, but based on what seems to be the norm in the setting, I'd be more inclined to assume that's not the case.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-08-08 at 09:40 AM. Reason: Â.

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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna_Mayflower View Post
    Then again, she helped destroy the city that followed all those gods.
    It is more correct to say that she helped to conquer a city that followed all of those gods. There are numerous nations/city states in the Southern Continent.

    There's a map of the Southern Continent in one of the books ... Realm of the Dragon, Raja kingdom are also entities.

    For example, in an analogy, you could say that Paris is the most important city, or the nicest city, in Europe but it isn't the capital of all of Europe. Just of France.

    As to the other post, I find it odd that folks are trying to shoehorn the worship of a pantheon into the concept of 'a unified church' and 'a single unified clergy' - I don't think that model fits.
    It certainly doesn't work that way up in the North among the dwarves; high priest of Thor and high priest of Odin as two examples however that may not be the best comparison as I am unclear on how the humans and other humanoids up North address their deities/religions/gods/pantheons.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-08-08 at 09:57 AM.
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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Im confused now. You said i was wrong, but she DOES need cleric levels, specifically, to cast cleric spells through MT. using a ranger would give her ranger spells instead.
    Whoops. I missed the "to cast cleric spells" part you'd had and thought you were just talking about Mystic Theurge requirements in general. My bad.

    As others said it's possible with Favored Soul (basically a divine sorcerer), and Druid has most of the same spells as Cleric (also true for Rangers, btw, but a significantly smaller list). But yeah, I just messed up my reading comprehension.
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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    For example, in an analogy, you could say that Paris is the most important city, or the nicest city, in Europe but it isn't the capital of all of Europe. Just of France.

    As to the other post, I find it odd that folks are trying to shoehorn the worship of a pantheon into the concept of 'a unified church' and 'a single unified clergy' - I don't think that model fits.
    It certainly doesn't work that way up in the North among the dwarves; high priest of Thor and high priest of Odin as two examples however that may not be the best comparison as I am unclear on how the humans and other humanoids up North address their deities/religions/gods/pantheons.
    Not sure we are on the same page here. Y'see, all I'm saying is that higgh priests in the Stickverse tend to be the heads of a church, and more specifically the church of someone (i.e. some god) in particular, rather than the heads of a national/regional, autocephalous organization, i.e. the church of somewhere (is it inappropriate to bring up the way a real life church is organised as an analogy? It would make my job a lot easier).
    For example, each Northern god has one formal high priest(ess), which would imply that Northern gods have separate churches of their own, and each of them has exactly one such formal church. The same seems to be the case with the Dark One, as well as the Western gods (at some point, Malack makes mention of the high priestess of Ishtar, while Wrecan says he works for the church of Marduk).
    Since other high priests are the formal heads of the respective churches of their gods, and since the Twelve are worshipped as a unified pantheon, I took the liberty to assume that the (singular, unitary) church of the Twelve is a thing, and therefore the high priest of the Twelve we see in Azure City is indeed the formal high priest of the Southern pantheon, rather than the leader of some local organization(, due to which, in turn, I took the liberty to assume that the Church of the Twelve was headquartered in Azure City at the time of the siege).
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-08-08 at 10:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Not sure we are on the same page here. Y'see, all I'm saying is that higgh priests in the Stickverse tend to be the heads of a church, and more specifically the church of someone (i.e. some god) in particular, rather than the heads of a national/regional, autocephalous organization, i.e. the church of somewhere (is it inappropriate to bring up the way a real life church is organised as an analogy? It would make my job a lot easier).
    For example, each Northern god has one formal high priest(ess), which would imply that Northern gods have separate churches of their own, and each of them has exactly one such formal church. The same seems to be the case with the Dark One, as well as the Western gods (at some point, Malack makes mention of the high priestess of Ishtar, while Wrecan says he works for the church of Marduk).
    Since other high priests are the formal heads of the respective churches of their gods, and since the Twelve are worshipped as a unified pantheon, I took the liberty to assume that the (singular, unitary) church of the Twelve is a thing, and therefore the high priest of the Twelve we see in Azure City is indeed the formal high priest of the Southern pantheon, rather than the leader of some local organization(, due to which, in turn, I took the liberty to assume that the Church of the Twelve was headquartered in Azure City at the time of the siege).
    In 999, we see that the Southern Pantheon has 12 priests representing their gods. They could be their high priests. But it's notable that they are just 12, and not 13, as one could expect with an added high priest of all the 12 gods. Maybe it's a rotating presidency, or maybe one of the gods, as chief deity, bestows upon his high priest the title of high priest of the 12. Or maybe it takes a special council to have a high priest of the 12, and it wasn't possible to name one in the meantime, or will be named at the end of the Godsmoot.
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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Come on, guys. Just as Gontor and his pals worshipped rocks and got their spells granted by earth elementals and such, Tsukiko worshipped the undead and got her spells granted by powerful outsiders of the negative energy plane. That's my head canon, end of que problem.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2020-08-08 at 12:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    In 999, we see that the Southern Pantheon has 12 priests representing their gods. They could be their high priests. But it's notable that they are just 12, and not 13, as one could expect with an added high priest of all the 12 gods. Maybe it's a rotating presidency, or maybe one of the gods, as chief deity, bestows upon his high priest the title of high priest of the 12. Or maybe it takes a special council to have a high priest of the 12, and it wasn't possible to name one in the meantime, or will be named at the end of the Godsmoot.
    Yes, that's been bugging me for a while too. My personal guess would be that those twelve clerics channeling the result of the vote are not high priests, but rather official spokespersons for the members of the pantheon (making it possible for multiple members of the divine group to manifest or speak as proxies at once, and allowing them to announce their votes separately), whereas the actual high priest presides over the meeting. His absence could be explained by the fact that he, well, died during the Battle of Azure City, and the Church did not have the time to officially inaugurate his successor in time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luna_Mayflower View Post
    Then why would they keep giving her spells after she helped destroy their capital?
    Remember that for a while she was part of Xykon's inner circle. Whether the gods liked her or not, she was their agent in his camp and their best bet to contact redcloak in the same way that Durkon is currently doing in the comic. The problem with that is of course that tsukiko was not raised from the dead, quite the opposite, in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium
    Yes, that's been bugging me for a while too. My personal guess would be that those twelve clerics channeling the result of the vote are not high priests, but rather official spokespersons for the members of the pantheon (making it possible for multiple members of the divine group to manifest or speak as proxies at once, and allowing them to announce their votes separately), whereas the actual high priest presides over the meeting. His absence could be explained by the fact that he, well, died during the Battle of Azure City, and the Church did not have the time to officially inaugurate his successor in time.
    Note that worshiping the twelve gods as a whole doesn't preclude the gods having individual virtues and vices (and in game terms, domains) associated with them. The individual clerics might all be clerics of the twelve gods, but those that specialize in the domains of a specific god and thus the most suitable representative for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan
    In 999, we see that the Southern Pantheon has 12 priests representing their gods. They could be their high priests. But it's notable that they are just 12, and not 13, as one could expect with an added high priest of all the 12 gods. Maybe it's a rotating presidency, or maybe one of the gods, as chief deity, bestows upon his high priest the title of high priest of the 12. Or maybe it takes a special council to have a high priest of the 12, and it wasn't possible to name one in the meantime, or will be named at the end of the Godsmoot.
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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    I don't think that we have nearly enough information to say for certain. Yes, we have Word of the Giant that followers of the Southern gods worship them as a pantheon, but that doesn't preclude Tsukiko being a godless cleric, or being some sort of heretic.

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    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Power View Post
    Remember that for a while she was part of Xykon's inner circle. Whether the gods liked her or not, she was their agent in his camp and their best bet to contact redcloak in the same way that Durkon is currently doing in the comic.
    I didn't even have a problem with Tsukiko still getting spells, but I like this theory so much I'm headcanoning it regardless.
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    Feb 2017

    Default Re: Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

    My Headcanon is that the evil Gods saw an opportunity in keeping Tsukiko on the payroll, as having a Cleric of the Twelve Gods in Gobbotopia meant they still had a foot in the door to convert the goblins down the road.
    That plan didn't really pan out how they'd hoped though.

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