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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011

    Default Re: Fireball and unattended objects

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Okay. Stylistically I prefer spells to do exactly what they say, no less and no more, and not to be 'extended' by attempting to apply real world physics.

    That helps keep the numerous anomalies (like why so many damaging spells only affect creatures) to a minimum, and also helps encourage players to spend time thinking about mundane inventiveness/creativity/planning.
    Cool. :) That approach works just fine. I twitch a little at the idea that I'm "extending" Fireball when I interpret that it ignites objects because it's fire, but we already knew we have different style preferences. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Wood is flammable. Cloth is flammable. Plants are flammable. Stone and metal are not flammable. Done and done.*

    I mean, I find it hard to understand how there a question about what is flammable and what's not. We all know what burns and what doesn't.

    *except that technically, people are flammable too. But magic /shrug
    Because (almost?) everything burns. Metal burns, stone burns, heck, even ice burns. It's a question of how easily they ignite. Some metals are easier to ignite than some types of wood (stopping some metals from spontaneously igniting is difficult). Stone, ice, and most metals require unusual conditions to burn (i.e. unusual concentrations of oxygen or the presence of more exotic oxidizers) but they still burn.

    Fortunately, since Fireball is almost always cast under usual conditions, we can indeed treat stone, ice, and most metals as non-flammable for purposes of Fireball. But even under normal circumstances the range of flammability of the materials you list as flammable is still huge. Consider "wood" which you have listed as obviously flammable. But the flammability of wood depends on its form: sawdust ignites almost instantly (and sometimes explosively), paper burns readily when exposed to small flames, dry twigs can be lit with small flames with deliberate effort and light easily when exposed to larger flames. Thick wood, especially hardwood, is much harder to ignite and keep lit, requiring sustained high temperatures. (Wooden doors, for example, can be highly effective at containing house fires to one room, even though house fires can generate temperatures in excess of 1,000 degrees.) The trunks of living trees I would go so far as to say can't be ignited under normal conditions: usually it requires a forest fire, which generates winds to supply additional oxygen. Even a direct lightning strike isn't likely to directly ignite the trunk of a living tree (although it can ignite enough other nearby material that the fire grows large enough to indirectly ignite the trunk later on).

    At the end of the day, the DM has to decide how flammable is flammable enough to be ignited by Fireball. There are no right or wrong answers to that question, but saying "we all know what burns and what doesn't" implies a dichotomy where none exists.
    Last edited by Xetheral; 2020-08-09 at 12:57 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Hearth

    Default Re: Fireball and unattended objects

    For the first one: Hardly ever. Fireball (along with many other spells like it) are instantaneous flash-burn stuff, so unless the range includes stuff that would normally be a fire hazard (dry ropes, dead grass, old, dry wood, etc.) the flames won't last for more than a few seconds.

    For the second one: I'd typically reserve such consequences for critical failures, particularly because Firebolt is the best cantrip available for the majority of blasters, punishing their use of it feels unnecessarily cruel and heavy-handed.
    "I may be a Hobgoblin, but the real mythical creature I'm playing is an Ethical Billionaire"

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2018

    Default Re: Fireball and unattended objects

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagog View Post

    For the second one: I'd typically reserve such consequences for critical failures, particularly because Firebolt is the best cantrip available for the majority of blasters, punishing their use of it feels unnecessarily cruel and heavy-handed.
    Enforcing a downside to to the "best" option isn't inflicting punishment; it's applying balance.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Fireball and unattended objects

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagog View Post
    For the second one: I'd typically reserve such consequences for critical failures, particularly because Firebolt is the best cantrip available for the majority of blasters, punishing their use of it feels unnecessarily cruel and heavy-handed.
    It's worth noting the RAW is that you have to hit a flammable object (not carried/worn) to ignite it. So it'd be a house rule to have it ignite something in the backdrop area on a miss.

    IMO best saved for either a "physics-logic" extension of the spell, or because it makes things more fun in the specific instance, or preferably both.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

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    Nov 2006

    Default Re: Fireball and unattended objects

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze View Post
    That applies to creatures, but I'm not familiar with any objects that have vulnerabilities listed.
    If you had a creature made out of that material, would it be vulnerable to fire?

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Nov 2019
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    The Sphere
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    Male

    biggrin Re: Fireball and unattended objects

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    (Side/bonus question: anyone else every had a DM that rules a missed Firebolt set the undergrowth on fire?)
    I rule with any sort of range attack that rolls a 1, if an ally is anywhere along the line of sight on attack. THEY get hit. So the wince around the table is felt when the Ranger or Sorc rolls a 1, and I say 'Roll Damage'

    As for undergrowth, we did Sunless Citadel, the EK tried using prestidigitation to ignite, living thorn bramble. I told him it would take a few minutes and multiple castings to dry it out enough to catch. In which the WM Sorc responded with Firebolts, in which per cast if enough damage was outputted would indeed clear a 5ft sq. So Avg dmg rolls, some math latter = how long it took to get near enough to the grove
    Last edited by ScoutTrooper; 2020-08-10 at 02:02 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    May 2019
    Location
    Hearth

    Default Re: Fireball and unattended objects

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze View Post
    Enforcing a downside to to the "best" option isn't inflicting punishment; it's applying balance.
    I disagree, a 1d10 scaling cantrip that deals the second most resisted damage type in the game with no riding effects doesn't feel like something I should nerf. Other cantrips may deal less damage but include riding modifiers, while EB blows Firebolt out of the water even without invocations (can have multiple targets, direct damage scales at the same rate, the least resisted damage type of all, etc.)
    "I may be a Hobgoblin, but the real mythical creature I'm playing is an Ethical Billionaire"

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Fireball and unattended objects

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagog View Post
    I disagree, a 1d10 scaling cantrip that deals the second most resisted damage type in the game with no riding effects doesn't feel like something I should nerf. Other cantrips may deal less damage but include riding modifiers, while EB blows Firebolt out of the water even without invocations (can have multiple targets, direct damage scales at the same rate, the least resisted damage type of all, etc.)
    EB is multiple attacks. That means it's unlikely to inflict full damage. For some players, that's a huge downside. They'd rather take the risk of no damage for a shot at full damage.

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