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Thread: Revivify good? Why?
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2020-08-09, 10:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: Revivify good? Why?
Last edited by Tanarii; 2020-08-09 at 10:16 PM.
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2020-08-09, 11:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
Re: Revivify good? Why?
I don't see the problem. Combat can be slow enough already; making monsters fight to the bitter end when it's clear they've lost is just wasting table time. Of course there are times when it may be appropriate (these cultists are fanatical, this dragon is defending its hoard, that orc just loves fighting more than he likes living) but for the most part having enemies flee or surrender is not only sensible but also good for moving the game along.
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2020-08-10, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2012
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- Vacation in Nyalotha
Re: Revivify good? Why?
No, the GM was the one wielding all the pounding!
In absence of fate points or similar that other systems have by default for averting bad events like death you may need to play a system a little differently to give players the experience they’re looking for. Without a “this scene is important to me I don’t want to go down/die/etc” button available by default it’s up to the DM to govern the stakes of every moment, reading into player intent and desire without there being as many mechanics for players to express such.
I will say I love the thematics of revivify far more than raise dead mainly because of the more easily managed setting consequences of such an ability existing. Also as a DM there is nothing I dread more than benching a character for the rest of the night. Revivify brings them back in immediately (though letting the players use henchmen whenever their main character is offscreen has been amazing lately).If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?
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2020-08-10, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2018
Re: Revivify good? Why?
Having alternate characters/NPCs to run when your PC dies is an almost lost art. It really needs to be revived so there are less player-side issues when a character dies.
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2020-08-10, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Revivify good? Why?
The problem is that combats that last only half a round aren't fun. If eight bandits ambush four 5th level PCs (say Paladin, Wizard, two Elemonks) and then as soon as the first PC acts (Elemonk kills three bandits with a blast of flame) the bandits panic and scatter, having discovered that these guys are not at ALL what they looked like, are the players really going to be satisfied? And yet at that point, there's no other reasonable outcome possible for
eightfive bandits vs. one armored knight and threeunarmored civiliansmystical wizards immune to arrows.
You can make these scenarios fun anyway but it involves cranking the difficulty waaaaay up: instead of eight bandits, a platoon of deserters turned to banditry (34 Guards with light crossbows). They might still break after 14/34 of them die, but they might also hold together, especially if they've inflicted casualties on the PCs. They'll almost certainly break after 24/34 of them die, especially since they're deserters already. Die rolling will be involved for their morale checks, but the point is, 34 bandits is a lot more than 8. It's (34^2/8^2) = 18 times the combat power, which is appropriate because the PCs turn out to have 4^2 = 16 times the combat power the bandits originally anticipated, so that what the bandits were expecting to be an easy score turns into a fight to the death, but they still have a chance.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-08-10 at 01:11 PM.
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2020-08-10, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: Revivify good? Why?
Why shouldn't they be? Are they so psychotically blood thirsty that they're pissed they didn't get to slaughter some puny weakling with a snap of their fingers too? I mean... heck man. The fact that one of us is able to cause them to rout shows how powerful we are, especially if it's a fricken monk of the 4 elements doing it!
And yet at that point, there's no other reasonable outcome possible foreightfive bandits vs. one armored knight and threeunarmored civiliansmystical wizards immune to arrows.
It's crap like this that makes me miss morale checks for NPCs...
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2020-08-10, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2018
Re: Revivify good? Why?
Satisfying to players is different from satisfying to characters. Characters might appreciate scattering puny foes and sending them running, but if players had to set up for a fight--especially with minis--and roll initiative with intent to enter the combat six-game of D&D, they are likely going to be unhappy if it gets cut short by one roll. The DM is a player too, and they can likewise get disappointed if such things happen, especially if they also took the time to build the encounter and draw out a battle map. Fear spell can do such things rather easily, but I've learned to have many of the opponents just move on to reinforce later encounters so fear is often a "get out of this situation right now, but likely make the next encounter unbalanced against us" solution, so it gets used with more care.
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2020-08-10, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2004
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Re: Revivify good? Why?
I somewhat disagree. At typical gaming tables, it is fair to guess even most pretty seasoned monsters have never seen anyone pop up from zero. To survive is the stuff of Heroes and Villains with a whiff of greatness.
Monsters and Death
Most GMs have a monster die the instant it drops to 0 Hit Points, rather than having it fall Unconscious and make Death Saving Throws.
Mighty villains and Special Nonplayer Characters are Common exceptions; the GM might have them fall Unconscious and follow the same rules as player characters.I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2020-08-10, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: Revivify good? Why?
To which my point stands- are your players so bloodthirsty that if they don't kill at least something they're not going to be happy? It's no less disturbing, and in fact, potentially moreso, then having characters who are that psychotic.
And if the DM spent a bunch of time on a random encounter of bandits who can get wiped out by a four elements monk using a single attack, well... that DM needs better time and resource management.
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2020-08-10, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Revivify good? Why?
Because a game that goes
Encounter 1. <8 bandits run away, and 3 escape>
Encounter 2. <8 bandits run away, and 4 escape>
Encounter 3. <an Oni runs away and escapes>
Encounter 4. <8 wolves run away, and 4 escape>
Encounter 5. <40 bandits, 4 wolves, and an Oni curbstomp the PCs>
seems unlikely to be a fun way to spend an evening. Even Combat As War players who would enjoy the challenge of encounter #5 still won't like having their time wasted by encounters 1-4, especially if you're using vanilla PHB initiative where players spend most of their time barred from even talking to the DM because its "not your turn".
If you're using an older-style initiative system (everybody declares, then everybody acts, rolling initiative when or if the DM asks for it) then it can feel like less of a time waste, especially if the DM is good at building dramatic tension by making encounters #2-#4 feel like potential #5s. I consider that part of "cranking the difficulty waaaaay up" though because there's still a huge, latent threat the players are having to deal with, maybe by capturing and interrogating bandits from encounters #1-2 so they can do something clever with infiltration or illusions in encounter #5--or maybe just so they can stop short before they get to encounter #5 and be happy with having killed a dozen bad guys without dying themselves.
Either way, the actual core of the adventure winds up being the encounter that WASN'T over in half a round, and everything else is just fluff and filler for it.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-08-10 at 02:07 PM.
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2020-08-10, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Re: Revivify good? Why?
My group had a dose of something similar, but it was with lizardfolk (of various types) and some giant lizards. It's surprisingly easy to escape PCs if you can throw spike growth in their only path of pursuit while they are busy trying to deal with conjured pteranodons (my players hate lizardfolk shamans with a passion now).
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2020-08-10, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Revivify good? Why?
Then the PCs should do a better job at making them surrender or hunting them down. I mean... if the PCs wanted to go after them hard enough, they, you know, can.
seems unlikely to be a fun way to spend an evening. Even Combat As War players who would enjoy the challenge of encounter #5 still won't like having their time wasted by encounters 1-4, especially if you're using vanilla PHB initiative where players spend most of their time barred from even talking to the DM because its "not your turn".
In your example above, the PCs are likely going AFTER this group, or encountered the large group while infiltrating somewhere else. If the players and PCs ignore the fact they’re letting the enemies retreat and regroup... well, ain’t my problem. I don’t run my npcs stupid just because you can’t be bothered to do more than half ass it and let them run off when you know they’re part of the same group.
Now if they’re totally in no way related, and in the same session they magically come back! That’s bad DMing. See again: better use of time and resource management needed.
Either way, the actual core of the adventure winds up being the encounter that WASN'T over in half a round, and everything else is just fluff and filler for it.
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2020-08-10, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
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2020-08-10, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Revivify good? Why?
Huh. I thought I was being generous is assuming that PCs capture a majority of the fleeing bad guys, but you seem to think it would be easy to do even better. Out of curiousity: you've got 8 bandits (or wolves) scattering in all directions, and 4 PCs. Do you split the party to chase bandits to north/south/east/west? That seems risky.
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2020-08-10, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
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2020-08-10, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Revivify good? Why?
Hold spells, slow spells, grappling, sentinel, and so on. If they’re breaking and running there are lots of ways to slow them down and stop them. Plus if this is a wilderness encounter (hence scattering in all directions- which is much harder in a dungeon setting), you have superior mobility options available if you spent any time on it. Expeditious retreat, and so on.
And is it REALLY risky? The original example had a freakin four ways elements monk one shotting MULTIPLE bandits. Any such encounter isn’t going to be that risky, unless it’s a trap. And if it is...? You regroup.
That’s also where items such as survival, hunters mark, etc come in handy to hunt them down.
Unless these bandits are somehow so inept they get wrecked by the weakest of monk subclasses yet so skilled they can Easily successfully evade and hide and then regroup.
And even if they did... well, a few fireballs will likely cut that 40 bandits down to less than 10.Last edited by Mikal; 2020-08-10 at 03:00 PM.
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2020-08-10, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
- Gender
Re: Revivify good? Why?
I remember an episode of Critical Role where they were going to chase some Gnolls that had just burned down a village and were leaving with the spoils. The member who ran up front was nearly downed as they simply turned on him, now alone in front, with a longbow attack. They gave up the chase quickly after that and opted to follow their trail to their lair later instead of risking immediate danger for a small chance at catching/killing a handful of them.
My home game matches, I don't ask our Monk to chase down an enemy who flees unless I'm confident that we can regroup quickly. If they try to run as a group, we usually have to let at least 1 enemy go.
Of course we could stop them, we have an 18th level Sorcerer with Wish, I can cast Hypnotic Pattern or Wall of Force but just because we could doesn't always mean it's worth it.Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2020-08-10 at 03:16 PM.
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2020-08-10, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
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2020-08-10, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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2020-08-10, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
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2020-08-10, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2019
- Location
- Hearth
Re: Revivify good? Why?
Depends on the party and the enemies. A group of local bandits? Definitely going to flee, either when they hear about the PCs or when their friends start getting offed in one shot. City Guards? Probably not. Even if they know they're likely going to die, they're fighting for their homes and families.
"I may be a Hobgoblin, but the real mythical creature I'm playing is an Ethical Billionaire"
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2020-08-10, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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2020-08-10, 05:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2019
- Location
- Hearth
Re: Revivify good? Why?
I gotta agree with HappyDaze here, this DM doesn't seem all that impractical to me. If the party has made enemies like this, all within a few hours/days, those who are intelligent (or in the Wolves case, desperate) enough to still want their destruction will follow the party, searching for the opportunity to destroy them. That opportunity may come when they are already engaged with another combatant. The only thing I could think of that's unlikely with this scenario is the Wolves. The wolves aren't likely to knowingly forge an alliance with the Oni and Bandits, but they may join in for some fresh meat once people start dying.
"I may be a Hobgoblin, but the real mythical creature I'm playing is an Ethical Billionaire"
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2020-08-10, 06:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
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2020-08-10, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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2020-08-10, 09:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
Re: Revivify good? Why?
If all those who escaped were able to gather together, there must have been some sort of meeting location planned. Otherwise, creatures escaping in all directions wouldn't have gathered back together. Seems that would be fairly easy to find out from some of the bandits who failed to escape.
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2020-08-11, 12:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Revivify good? Why?
NPCs never do anything without the DM's permission. It is just as arbitrary for escaping bad guys to gather together to team up and kill the PCs or a kill a downed PC making death saving throws as it is not to do such things. It is not the DM's job to kill PCs because bad guys hate them just as much as not to protect them from their failures.
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2020-08-12, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2008
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Re: Revivify good? Why?
Why would that be a fun adventuring day even if every opponent fought to the death? The CR system isn't great, but simple encounter math shows that 8 bandits aren't even close to meeting the minimum for an Easy encounter for a level 5 party, and the wolves only just skirt the minimum. At that point, throwing in the need to worry about enemies escaping or managing a trail of pitiful captives isn't "fun" exactly, but it creates tension and some kind of fail state.
Or you could have exactly one comedic encounter where the bandits flee in horror after realizing how badly they've messed up, the survivors spread the word not to bother the adventurers passing through, and the party fast-forwards to that Oni or something else that can present a challenge without rushing into death like an armed lemming.
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2020-08-12, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Revivify good? Why?
Frankly it was just a simple example for the sake of illustration. (I don't think we even specified that it was a level 5 party.) The example in my head was "PCs are going to root out a nest of bandits and stumble repeatedly across pickets," and in that context it's more "fun" if the bandits either (1) fight to the death even in small groups, or (2) mostly retreat and regroup to encounter #5, so that in-between encounter are mostly roleplaying encounters ("can you capture the picket before he can sound the alarm? what kind of information can you pump out of him afterwards?") so that #5 can be the "real" combat encounter of the adventure.
I happen to think that bandits punch above their weight, so for a hack-and-slash Combat As Sport type game I think an encounter with fanatic bandits who believe in fighting to the death (in groups of 8 for some reason) could still be interesting and difficult for a level 5 party, given their access to ranged weaponry and potentially partial/total cover. (In my head there are about three bandits on each side of the road, in the brush, and two or three bandits on the road doing the talking, demanding a "road tax.") Of course you'd want to make each group of bandits adopt different approaches too--perhaps the next group of bandits is slightly drunk and a bit lazy and lecherous, and they just surround their victims at close range and threaten them with blades, instead of bothering with good tactics.
By nature I'm more Combat As War, but if you want Combat As Sport, my point is that Bandits punch above their weight: throwing multiple "Medium" encounters of 25 bandits at a typical 5th level party risks TPKing the PCs or at least driving them off until they gain some levels.
My original point wasn't about bandits in particular, just that enemies with realistic expectations for combat outcomes become boring and mostly skippable except when in overwhelming force. To that end, feel free to change the bandits to whatever monsters suit you.
Or you could have exactly one comedic encounter where the bandits flee in horror after realizing how badly they've messed up, the survivors spread the word not to bother the adventurers passing through, and the party fast-forwards to that Oni or something else that can present a challenge without rushing into death like an armed lemming.
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2020-08-12, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2016
Re: Revivify good? Why?
Yes, at least two of my players are that bloodthirsty. In the games I play there is always at least one player that bloodthirsty. They would eventually get annoyed that enemies were fleeing from them after one or two rounds of combat.
Heck, its not even being bloodthirsty. Its a matter of boredom for other players. If you're playing a Wizard and you send the bandits scattering with a single spell because you killed a third of their group, you feel awesome and cool. But anyone that goes after you doesn't get to do anything. Those players end up being disappointed because they can't use their equally fun and cool abilities.
And sure, those players can chase down the fleeing bandits, but that is a far less satisfying fight. It relegates them to basically kicking a guy when they're down. Its not fun, its not impressive, these bandits already aren't fighting back so what's the point.Last edited by sithlordnergal; 2020-08-12 at 03:38 PM.