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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    I disagree. 5e has rules for what happens regarding not being able to breath, choking should use them.
    5e has rules for how you knock someone unconscious with physical attacks. You do it by reducing them to 0 hp.

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    5e has rules for how you knock someone unconscious with physical attacks. You do it by reducing them to 0 hp.
    Indeed. What does it have to do with strangling someone to death?

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Indeed. What does it have to do with strangling someone to death?
    It's a physical attack trying to knock someone unconscious or kill them.

    It's pretty much is the definition of the price of milk.

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    If allowed, every group of vaguely intelligent monsters should be grappling the obvious casters in the party if they outnumber them

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    If allowed, every group of vaguely intelligent monsters should be grappling the obvious casters in the party if they outnumber them
    I, for one, am all for this. I say this as both player and DM.

    I hold this opinion mostly because I like to play and run games where the non-combat elements of adventures actually mean something, which tends to put a spotlight on how D&D's balance assumes the opposite, which is why it considers it fair to give everyone else powerful noncombat utility for basically free without making warrior-types remotely more important in combat than everyone else.

    If you're playing a game where you follow the pillar balance the books are written for, I can see how rulings that shift the spotlight onto warriors in combat might be unbalancing.
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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze View Post
    The point of grappling in 5e is to prevent movement. This is clearly spelled out in the grappled condition.

    It does not matter that grappling often means more in real life; stabbing someone with a blade means often more in real life too. If you can accept that the blade doesnt really get a good hit in until hp hit 0, then the grappler doesn't lock in the hold until 0 hp either.
    I know that. The point of my question was to get at, if your goal is to grapple the mage to silence him, why grapple him if the silencing comes from beating his hp out of him?

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I know that. The point of my question was to get at, if your goal is to grapple the mage to silence him, why grapple him if the silencing comes from beating his hp out of him?
    So don't grapple him if that's your goal. Simple as that.

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze View Post
    So don't grapple him if that's your goal. Simple as that.
    I'm sorry but i don't see any reason a level 20 Barbarian should be much worse at this than "guy at the gym". The books let the DM decide this, so it really comes down to how much each DM thinks of grappling.

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze View Post
    Besides that, grappling isn't all that popular in fantasy stories, and D&D is far true to that (even though it's still quite far off) than it is to real life.
    I appreciate you bringing up the narrative argument, since you can go around in circles forever on the "what would X do if" realism. I'd contend that while it's definitely true that advanced grappling is a rare sight in popular fantasy, these stories also feature "grappling" that involves Strong Guy™ grabbing and picking up people by the throat with one arm, rendering them more helpless than they "realistically" would be.

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    It's actually supported in the rule book. Look at Page 195 of the PHB. It specifically states using the systems provided to adjudicate other abstract contests of prowess via improvisation.
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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze View Post
    So don't grapple him if that's your goal. Simple as that.
    Tanarii wrote his post as if grappling then beating him to unconsciousness was the right way to go about it.

    I responded by asking what the point of the grapple step was, then.

    You're saying "there's no point," which is fine, but that does mean Tanarii's answer is not useful to the OP's question after all.

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Tanarii wrote his post as if grappling then beating him to unconsciousness was the right way to go about it.

    I responded by asking what the point of the grapple step was, then.

    You're saying "there's no point," which is fine, but that does mean Tanarii's answer is not useful to the OP's question after all.
    It is useful, in a "you can't do it with grappling if a DM rules the way I stated" kind of way. (Edit: Oh sorry, I totally missed your point. Grappling helps in that they can't easily move away from you. But other than that, you're right, it doesn't.)

    OTOH I do not contend that my answer was the only proper answer to the question "can you hold a caster in a way so they can't perform S and/or V components?" That'd be a DM ruling, and one solid potential answer is: yes, and it should be some kind of opposed check, and it might as well be grappling checks.

    IMO, whether or not a DM should rule to allow it really depends on how much Players want enemies to easily stop their PC casters from casting. Or make being MAD with Athletics or Acrobatics a requirement for playing a caster. IMO anything that makes anti-casting easier hurts PCs far more than monsters.

    I do think allowing choking someone out without reducing them to 0 hit points is something every DM should rule "no way" on.

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    This thread sounds like an attempt to homebrew more combat options for grappling, like the "optional" Disarm, for everyone. I usually allow a being that has already grappled a caster to do a further grapple check to force Concentration. No damage, just a lot of shaking and yelling. But that is also an example of house rules, and not RAW. I also think the Grappler feat is actually a useful yardstick for this, as "Pinning" is what is also being discussed. If you can achieve these results with a rope or gag, how can you emulate it with your bare hands? Can you?

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    AS for house-ruling, if the grappler is willing to devote his actions to preventing the mage from casting, I think a reasonably fair way to do it would be to have the grapple check's result (which, I believe, is always going to be a Strength(Athletics) check) set a DC for a Concentration check the mage must make in order to successfully cast a spell despite the attempts to hold his limbs, mouth, or whatever still/silent, as if the mage were checking for Concentration against damage taken while Concentrating on a spell.

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    AS for house-ruling, if the grappler is willing to devote his actions to preventing the mage from casting, I think a reasonably fair way to do it would be to have the grapple check's result (which, I believe, is always going to be a Strength(Athletics) check) set a DC for a Concentration check the mage must make in order to successfully cast a spell despite the attempts to hold his limbs, mouth, or whatever still/silent, as if the mage were checking for Concentration against damage taken while Concentrating on a spell.
    That is an elegant theory. I will test this next time, if I may.

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    After you grapple them, reduce them to 0 hps. Now they're completely locked down under your control. That's what HPs are for.
    Tanaril, do you have no Narrative descriptions in your game?
    Is it all Attack Roles and vague terms like Grappling?
    I am asking to just get a better sense of your POV.

    The scenario described in the original post is a violent, but relatively non bloody affair.

    Being beaten into unconsciousness is fairly gruesome, it typically leads to permanent injuries, often death still occurs.

    The consequence of "that's what HP are for" is the players are forced to do this:
    https://abcnews.go.com/Archives/vide...eotape-9758031

    A player asking to add an Ad Hoc condition as part of a grapple...silencing the spell caster by holding their mouth shut, or restraining their hands to prevent somatic components, for example, has a resolution mechanism: That is what Saving Throws are for.

    The role of Saving Throws since the games inception has been a method of resolving effects that bypass Hit Points.

    Poison doesn't have to just do Hit Point damage, it can outright kill you instead. A Medusa doesn't need to bring someone to zero HP to petrify a creature, it just needs to make eye contact.

    You are neglecting a resolution mechanic, the Saving Throw, that is an essential part of D&D's identity.
    Last edited by Satori01; 2020-08-10 at 12:29 AM.

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Satori01 View Post
    Tanaril, do you have no Narrative descriptions in your game?
    Is it all Attack Roles and vague terms like Grappling?
    I am asking to just get a better sense of your POV.
    Lets just say if I ever wanted to play a caster in the DMs campaign, I'd be going "hold on a second ...".

    It's not as nerfing to casters as reintroducing any hit negates a spell and casting a spell provokes an OA. But it sure makes it easy for humanoid enemies to take a caster out of the picture in short order.

    Now if you think it's fine for a couple of Orcs to dogpile a Tier 2 caster and bypass their HPs to take them out of the fight, go to it.

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by BoutsofInsanity View Post
    It's actually supported in the rule book. Look at Page 195 of the PHB. It specifically states using the systems provided to adjudicate other abstract contests of prowess via improvisation.
    We know, but this doesn't actually support any side of the argument. A DM can, and should, decide if they say "yes" or "no" about anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze View Post
    Besides that, grappling isn't all that popular in fantasy stories, and D&D is far true to that (even though it's still quite far off) than it is to real life.
    What do you mean by "grappling isn't all that popular in fantasy stories"?

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    "Now if you think it's fine for a couple of Orcs to dogpile a Tier 2 caster and bypass their HPs to take them out of the fight, go to it."

    Technically, not having enough bat guano can stop a spell caster in their tracks....being bound and gagged by ruffians at least has more dignity then being out of bat 💩.

    Honestly, an Arcane Trickster can steal a casters component pouch or holy symbol as a bonus action, ad nauseum.

    The actions described in the OP at least expended a fair chunk of that PCs resources...the glass is always half full when you are the DM.😈
    Last edited by Satori01; 2020-08-10 at 01:23 AM.

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Now if you think it's fine for a couple of Orcs to dogpile a Tier 2 caster and bypass their HPs to take them out of the fight, go to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Satori01 View Post
    "Now if you think it's fine for a couple of Orcs to dogpile a Tier 2 caster and bypass their HPs to take them out of the fight, go to it."

    Technically, not having enough bat guano can stop a spell caster in their tracks....being bound and gagged by ruffians at least has more dignity then being out of bat 💩.
    Several orcs can definitively shove a rag in a caster's mouth and tie up/shackle their hands if they have the material for it. If they're able to do it without the material is the question.

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    The important point to consider is narrative action.

    If hit points are the only way to reduce someone to a helpless state, then all other options are removed from viable tactical equations. Straight attack rolls become the most important thing to consider. Further, there becomes no point in description or action taken other than "I attack". This is a massive buff to spell casters. By removing tactical physical actions from being arbitrated, you instead only allow spell casting to cause conditional one off effects. Because they are explicitly stated.

    If that's the case, better to go play 3.5 where feats and specific character abilities are specialized with narrow scope that explicitly say that a player can do said action.

    Rather than in 5e which runs systems with broad scope to prevent bloat. Relying on DM's to arbitrate narration within the rule set.

    Which in my opinion is a regression of the progress that 20 years of game design have improved upon.

    That way at least players have the opportunity to do things and not having the Dungeon Master say no.
    Last edited by BoutsofInsanity; 2020-08-10 at 07:49 AM.
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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by BoutsofInsanity View Post
    The important point to consider is narrative action.

    If hit points are the only way to reduce someone to a helpless state,
    But we know that's not even true, since a bunch of spells do just that.

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by BoutsofInsanity View Post
    This is a massive buff to spell casters.
    No. It's failing to create a massive NERF to casters.

    The Massive buff to casters came about in 3e.

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Personally, this is of course not RAW.

    But that does not necessarily mean it is good or bad. A lot of RAW is pretty idiotic.

    So the question then becomes, what are the effects of what they’re asking to do? Would this break the game? Does it change the way combat is done at a fundamental level? Are these changes positive or negative to the player experience?

    The effect is providing a martial a means of shutting down some of a casters ability to cast spells.

    Would it break the game? Not that I see, no. There are a lot points of failure here. And it’s not even like they’re removing all options. As there are spells without components that can be theoretically blocked with a grapple.

    Does it change the combat experience? Yes. This provides a new effective strategy against casters. Specifically a way to lock them down and disable them. One that is best performed not by other casters as is the norm but by strength focused martials.

    Are the changes positive or negative to the player experience? For the martial. Probably universally positive. A new tool in the toolbelt that makes thematic and logical sense. One with distinct pros and cons, like grappling normally it is not to be used in every fight where you might be more important as straight damage or tank. But when you really got to stop someone from casting a spell. It’s there.

    For the caster. I don’t know. It’s a new challenge that is always a threat. But not a guaranteed one. And there is counterplay available to the caster. Provided they understand how the rules work and can plan accordingly. If said player is interested in tactical engagement this may make combat more fun overall. If they only want to cast their big spells unimpeded they will have less.


    As an aside. Not to name names. But I do remember some posting on this thread during the great martial/caster debate from a few weeks ago who claimed there was no imbalance because a martial could use their strength and skills in cool completely open ways to solve problems.

    And here we have a martial using their Strength and skills in a cool open to interpretation way to solve a problem. And they’re saying it shouldn’t be allowed because the rules do not explicitly say it is so.
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2020-08-10 at 09:56 AM.

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    I wouldn't allow it on somebody without Grappler feat.

    Without it you can't even Restrain a target, and what the OP asked is clearly past Restraining.

    Of course this still isn't RAW.

    IRL, if I tried to do that without training I'd get a face full of fist. I mean, I probably have something like an 8 in strenght IRL, but the principle is that one. A barbarian has no more benefit then a wizard for a grapple besides better strenght an advantage. Hell, the monk is a terrible grappler and they are the iconic martial artist.

    So I'd first require the Grappler feat, then sure, they can limit movements and voice through two Special Attacks. And at that point they are both locked down, of course. Though the original grappler will have their voice available.
    For contests... Athletics vs Athletics/Acrobatics sounds fair, and the grappled can use an action to get free. As in, one thing free, not everything.
    Last edited by Valmark; 2020-08-10 at 09:01 AM.

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Personally, this is of course not RAW.

    But that does not necessarily mean it is good or bad. A lot of RAW is pretty idiotic.

    So the question then becomes, what are the effects of what they’re asking to do? Would this break the game? Does it change the way combat is done at a fundamental level? Are these changes positive or negative to the player experience?

    The effect is providing a martial a means of shutting down some of a casters ability to cast spells.

    Would it break the game? Not that I see, no. There are a lot points of failure here. And it’s not even like they’re removing all options. As there are spells without components that can be theoretically blocked with a grapple.

    Does it change the combat experience? Yes. This provides a new effective strategy against casters. Specifically a way to lock them down and disable them. One that is best performed not by other casters as is the norm but by strength focused martials.

    Are the changes positive or negative to the player experience? For the martial. Probably universally positive. A new tool in the toolbelt that makes thematic and logical sense. One with distinct pros and cons, like grappling normally it is not to be used in every fight where you might be more important as straight damage or tank. But when you really got to stop someone from casting a spell. It’s there.

    For the caster. I don’t know. It’s a new challenge that is always a threat. But not a guaranteed one. And there is counterplay available to the caster. Provided they understand how the rules work and can plan accordingly. If said player is interested in tactical engagement this may make combat more fun overall. If they only want to cast their big spells unimpeded they will have less.


    As an aside. Not to name names. But I do remember some posting on this thread during the great martial/caster debate from a few weeks ago who claimed their was no imbalance because a martial could use their strength and skills in cool completely open ways to solve problems.

    And here we have a martial using their Strength and skills in a cool open to interpretation way to solve a problem. And they’re saying it shouldn’t be allowed because the rules do not explicitly say it is so.
    See this is the best reasoning i've seen for it.

    Because that's how I feel. I get whiplash so fast. It's like, casters are the best. Martial Characters suck. And here is a potential narrative, multiple points of failure idea, that is provided for within the bounds of the system that would allow Martial Characters an interesting way to use their strength and skill to compete even a little bit.

    And then everyone freaks out because casters might not be able to easily one spell cast their way out of the bag. Go check out the reddit post I threw down. It's wild. All of the sudden physical prowess does matter and everyone loses their cool.

    It's not even that bad. Pretty Much fighters and Monks can do it in a round. Everyone else takes two rounds to get there in the provided example. Hell it's more efficient anyway to use Sharpshooter and Dexterity to drop characters from 600 feet.

    It's even more efficient to just throw Hold Person and win that way.
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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by BoutsofInsanity View Post
    So in one round, in a potential white room scenario, the Fighter/Barbarian can really lock down a character? I think with how powerful spell casters are, it would make sense to me to allow it. But how would you handle it?
    This is literally one of the original uses for grappling and one of the most commonly used forms of it in 2nd and 3rd edition. There's even a video game called Knights of the Chalice that has 3.5 rules with grappling implemented and the enemies frequently do it to YOU too. For those claiming it's strong, yes it is and it's one of the basic advantages that strong fighters get for dealing with puny mages. AD&D mages were utterly defenseless against gags and handcuffs because they had no still or silent metamagic. Some spells were verbal only and didn't require hands and some spells were somatic and didn't need words but all spells needed something. It was a common tactic to capture wizards by disabling them and then tying them up. The rules of combat were horrendously unfair in AD&D and using creative solutions to encounters was basically mandatory because in a straight math fight the monsters would probably win.

    Grappling down wizards so they can't cast is one of the non-damaging perks of being a martial. Works on other threatening things too, like stopping that giant from swinging his club at your squishy friends. Grappling is awesome and not enough people realize it because of how bare-bones the rules for it are.

    Just remember that what PCs can do monsters can do too. Giants are terrifying to fight against when they use their 24 strength scores to grapple the party. Even the fighter can be disabled and good luck winning without him hacking them to pieces. What's that? Your wizard needs to beat an opposed strength check against something with three times his strength? Good luck and wait for rescuing.

    Oh and one more thing, this is why wizards tended to be at the BACK of the room away from all the would-be grapplers. It's also why engulfing slimes and things with tentacles should never be allowed near the wizard ever.
    Last edited by Kyutaru; 2020-08-10 at 10:15 AM.
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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Personally, I would add this effect to the pin option of the grappler feat
    Good way to make that feat more usefull and it has the caveat of restraining yourself too so there is a tactical downside to it

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    So, first off, this can't come online till level 7, if you're going mainly Barbarian for Rages (Fighter 2 (Action Surge)/Barbarian 5 (Extra Attack)), or level 6 if you're going mainly Fighter (Barbarian 1 (Rage)/Fighter 5 (Extra Attack)).

    To those who would consider it OP, compare to what a straight Battlemaster 6 can do.

    You can Action Surge (four attacks) and make each one a Disarming Strike, for instance-getting rid of their casting focus or component pouch on a failed Strength saving throw
    Or just use whatever maneuver and slam them at four attacks, +8 to-hit, for 2d6+5+1d8 per hit. If VHuman with GWM, +3 to-hit, but 2d6+15+1d8 per hit. Assuming an AC of 14 (Mage Armor, +1 Dex) that's just shy of 50 damage (no GWM) or just over 50 (GWM yes).

    Yes, this is a potent tactic-but it's gonna require you to expend build resources, and usually both short and long rest resources to get it done in a timely fashion. At the very least, you REALLY need Action Surge, since only grappling and making prone a target leaves them able to Misty Step or anything else like that away.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Personally, i would allow it, with the understanding that the NPCs can do it to the players as well. Requiring components for spells becomes pretty pointless if those components dont actually meaningfully represent a resource or vulnerability to be targeted.
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    Default Re: How would you handle this? Grappling a mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    I wouldn't allow it on somebody without Grappler feat.

    Without it you can't even Restrain a target, and what the OP asked is clearly past Restraining.
    I think that is an entirely valid way to look at this, especially if another PC has the Grappler feat.
    Yet, I personally have never met, nor read a post of a person whom took the Grappler feat for the pin action the feat contains.

    The Restrained condition is a terrible state to be in, and nobody wants to inflict that on themselves.

    There is essentially no guidance on what the narrative distinction is between the two conditions outside of the illustrations in the PHB, displayed next to the mechanical description.

    The Grapple condition is represented by a heavily armored dwarf being raised several feet off the ground by tentacles.
    This tells me that even outlandish physical acts, such as those displayed in Entertainment Wrestling, are Grapples.

    The Restrained condition is depicted with a human stuck, spread eagle, in a web. The limbs of this human are depicted as if they are tied to this web. The human, to me, appears almost like a fly stuck in fly paper.
    This tells me, being bound hand and foot with rope, or stuck by some preternatural adhesive substance is what constitutes the Restrained condition.

    Everything described in the OP, reads as a grapple.
    An Angry, (Raging)Andre the Giant, (action surged), basically moved faster then anyone could stop, and manhandled, someone.

    The character with the Restrained feat is like a living net.
    You can't move, and they can't move, and you both are sitting ducks.
    Last edited by Satori01; 2020-08-10 at 11:57 AM.

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