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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Difference between something like 'poke him in the eye' vs. 'swing on the chandelier' is that you are much less likely to run into a scenario with an accessible chandelier than an opponent's set of eyes.

    Making something a default choice of action in 5% of encounters (such as Fireball in a horde of 20 goblins) is fine, making something a default choice of action in 100% of encounters is not. So it's okay to make the 'swing on the chandelier' maneuver to be strictly better than the basic Attack.


    If we can't make something circumstantial based on the environment (like making a called-shot to the eyes), the only other option is to make it circumstantial based on math (like how Shove is, or choosing what spells to cast). If you choose to have no circumstantial reason to utilize the feature, then you're basically choosing to overwrite the default (which is a basic Attack).

    Those are the options:
    • Watch your players replace their default actions with the new flavor of "bland" (this is effectively what happened with EB Warlock builds once the Hexblade was included, and why it gets so much flak)
    • Make it circumstantial, so that it occurs rarely to add a pop of color to your combat.


    So how do you make Called Shots circumstantial?
    • Require some kind of environmental circumstance?
    • Make it circumstantially stronger than the default?
    • Make it cost some kind of universal resource?

    Take your pick, but something like a Called Shot doesn't exactly have many levers to pull on.
    Introducing "called shot" rules is something i wouldn't do. That's why copying over the existing mechanics for blinding someone makes more sense in this situation.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    If it's just a poke in the eye, I'd call it a fluffed Help action rather than give the target the Blinded condition.
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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by GooeyChewie View Post
    If it's just a poke in the eye, I'd call it a fluffed Help action rather than give the target the Blinded condition.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    If I was DM: I'd be fine with a PC saying I wanna blind that guy with my hands. Make a grapple attack - if successful you hold your hands over that guys eyes for one round.

    Is this RAW? Nope. But I think it's a reasonable ruling. The cost is an attack action and it only lasts one turn.

    I would nerf it so that it would be your last attack of the round so that you could not grapple/blind first then continue to multi-attack w/ ADV because I think that would be too much.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    I think it should definitely be possible, but it should be difficult enough to pull off that it is extremely situational.

    I'd probably call for an Action (not an attack) to try to blind the opponent, making an Attack roll with auto Disadvantage. If it hits, then the target is still allowed a Con save (DC 8+Proficiency+Str/Dex). If they fail, they are blinded until the end of your next round.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    I think it should definitely be possible, but it should be difficult enough to pull off that it is extremely situational.

    I'd probably call for an Action (not an attack) to try to blind the opponent, making an Attack roll with auto Disadvantage. If it hits, then the target is still allowed a Con save (DC 8+Proficiency+Str/Dex). If they fail, they are blinded until the end of your next round.
    That does seem a bit expensive.

    A 70% chance to hit, after Disadvantage, becomes 49%. That's a drop in value by about 30% by itself. Assuming a 60% chance to not save after a 49% chance to hit, and you're looking at about a final 30% chance for that blind. On top of that, we're also cutting away at least one attack, possibly two or more.

    The Blinding Action would have to be worth more than two rounds' worth of attacking to be worth attempting, due to the difference in success rates.

    On the other hand, though, the Dodge Action is worth one round's worth of attacking. Is a Blind worth two turns of Dodging? Maybe?

    I dunno, just doesn't feel like something that'd make the game a whole lot better. 30% chance of getting value out of your turn just doesn't seem like a good bargain, no matter how fair it is. It doesn't matter how much damage a Rogue does in a single hit, people will still complain how bad it feels to lose your entire turn on a single die roll.

    If the success of the Champion means anything, it's that consistency is worth more to real players than math.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2020-08-10 at 05:09 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    That does seem a bit expensive.

    A 70% chance to hit, after Disadvantage, becomes 49%. That's a drop in value by about 30% by itself. Assuming a 60% chance to not save after a 49% chance to hit, and you're looking at about a final 30% chance for that blind. On top of that, we're also cutting away at least one attack, possibly two or more.

    The Blinding Action would have to be worth more than two rounds' worth of attacking to be worth attempting, due to the difference in success rates.

    On the other hand, though, the Dodge Action is worth one round's worth of attacking. Is a Blind worth two turns of Dodging? Maybe?

    I dunno, just doesn't feel like something that'd make the game a whole lot better. 30% chance of getting value out of your turn just doesn't seem like a good bargain, no matter how fair it is. It doesn't matter how much damage a Rogue does in a single hit, people will still complain how bad it feels to lose your entire turn on a single die roll.
    I agree which, is why my suggestion is that if you already have someone grappled, you can use your entire action (not attack) to replicate the Blindness spell, save every turn but 1min duration and all. Simple. You also can't reblind them if they're already blind. I feel that's neither too easy, nor so hard as to be pointless. And for the "reduce their hp to 0" comments, Blindness the spell doesn't require that.
    Last edited by NorthernPhoenix; 2020-08-10 at 05:12 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    Yes, that is 1 interpretation of HP and damge.
    Truly, I was misremembering. The attack that drops you to 0 hit points strikes you directly. Nothing is actually said about that being the only time though.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    That does seem a bit expensive.

    A 70% chance to hit, after Disadvantage, becomes 49%. That's a drop in value by about 30% by itself. Assuming a 60% chance to not save after a 49% chance to hit, and you're looking at about a final 30% chance for that blind. On top of that, we're also cutting away at least one attack, possibly two or more.

    The Blinding Action would have to be worth more than two rounds' worth of attacking to be worth attempting, due to the difference in success rates.

    On the other hand, though, the Dodge Action is worth one round's worth of attacking. Is a Blind worth two turns of Dodging? Maybe?

    I dunno, just doesn't feel like something that'd make the game a whole lot better. 30% chance of getting value out of your turn just doesn't seem like a good bargain, no matter how fair it is. It doesn't matter how much damage a Rogue does in a single hit, people will still complain how bad it feels to lose your entire turn on a single die roll.

    If the success of the Champion means anything, it's that consistency is worth more to real players than math.
    Don't think a 30% chance to inflict a pretty powerful condition is expensive.

    Instead of comparing to Dodge, compare it to Help (100% chance to give advantage to a single attack). This is 30% chance to give advantage on multiple attacks as well as disdavantage for every attack the creature makes.

    On a standard party of 4, the Rogue can try to blind the attacker, granting advantage to 4 attacks (two from a Fighter and one each from a Wizard and a Cleric) and give Disadvantage on two attacks against anyone, not just the blinder.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    Don't think a 30% chance to inflict a pretty powerful condition is expensive.
    I dunno, that's about the chance for a Monk to land a Stunning Strike, and they pay Ki for that! /s

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    Don't think a 30% chance to inflict a pretty powerful condition is expensive.

    Instead of comparing to Dodge, compare it to Help (100% chance to give advantage to a single attack). This is 30% chance to give advantage on multiple attacks as well as disdavantage for every attack the creature makes.

    On a standard party of 4, the Rogue can try to blind the attacker, granting advantage to 4 attacks (two from a Fighter and one each from a Wizard and a Cleric) and give Disadvantage on two attacks against anyone, not just the blinder.
    Right, I mean to say at the end that it seems fair. It doesn't matter, though, as what it doesn't seem is fun.

    Players would rather pay 30% of their HP than 30% of their chance for participation, as even losing is still a form of playing the game, while doing nothing for 2/3 turns...speaks for itself.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2020-08-10 at 05:39 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #42

    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    I've seen a lot of talks about what people think characters should be able to do lately, so I'm curious:

    Would you let a character temporarily blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes/agree with the DM if they let that happen?
    Temporarily? Sure, under the Improvised Action rules. Permanently, well, I'd make that quite difficult, because permanent damage is not idiomatic for 5E.

    My Rule of Yes says that the first time you try something it pretty much just works, so the first time someone does it I'd say, "If you hit with this attack, the guy is blind for a round." On second and subsequent attempts the DM will stop to come up with actual rules, which would probably borrow inspiration from both Battlemaster maneuvers and AD&D called shots and the Complete Fighter's Handbook. I'd probably wind up imposing both a to-hit penalty and a damage threshold, something like "eye strikes have a -8 to-hit penalty, and if you do 10% or more of the target's total HP to the eyes in one round, the target is blinded temporarily, with a DC 15 Con save at the end of its turn to recover." Other targets like the hamstrings would have a higher damage threshold but a lower to-hit penalty and different effects, like movement penalties, or temporary loss of claw attacks, or falling prone and not being able to rise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Seems I mispoke.

    I meant the PC shoving their fingers in the opponent's eyes to blind them for a turn or the like. Probably requiring an attack roll.
    Fingers don't do much damage so by my hypothetical rule above this wouldn't work well except against mooks of ~40 HP or less (assuming Str bonus of +3 to damage for total damage of 4, unless you're a monk). I recommend using a dagger instead of your fingers.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernPhoenix View Post
    Yes, but not in a way that's different from the Blindness spell. You can't just decide to permanently blind someone, but doing what is doing pocket sand/blindness at worse range with all the accompanying saves seems quite appropriate.
    Be careful with this ruling--if you make it work as well as a at-will Blindness spell you're making eye-poking Tiny Servant/Animate Dead more powerful than you probably intended.

    Obligatory "Go for the eyes, Boo!" I've never actually played Baldur's Gate beyond the intro sequence but I know the meme.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-08-10 at 05:56 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Right, I mean to say at the end that it seems fair. It doesn't matter, though, as what it doesn't seem is fun.

    Players would rather pay 30% of their HP than 30% of their chance for participation, as even losing is still a form of playing the game, while doing nothing for 2/3 turns...speaks for itself.
    Otoh, allowing a Blinded condition with better rate of success is problematic since it encourages every player to always try to blind their targets all the time

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    Otoh, allowing a Blinded condition with better rate of success is problematic since it encourages every player to always try to blind their targets all the time
    How often do you find people take the Blindness spell? Not that often in my experience.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernPhoenix View Post
    How often do you find people take the Blindness spell? Not that often in my experience.
    The "issue" with the Blindness spell is the opportunity cost. It competes for a Spell Known/Prepared with more powerful spells (Phantasmal Force)

    Were Blindness offered in a Melee Spell Attack Cantrip that doesn't cost a Cantrip Known, I'm sure it's usage would be far more common
    Last edited by heavyfuel; 2020-08-10 at 05:58 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    Otoh, allowing a Blinded condition with better rate of success is problematic since it encourages every player to always try to blind their targets all the time
    I agree, that's what makes it complicated.

    Berserker's mathematically stronger than Champion, yet players like the Champion more.

    That's why my suggestion is to have too high of a rate of success compared to what most would find acceptable for a regular use of Blind, but then follow it up with a bunch of extra costs. Mine had:
    • Movement equal to your Speed
    • A Hit Die
    • A Bonus Action
    • The fact that it can only apply to your next attack, whether it hits or not.
    • The fact that it can save (although the DC for it is the same as yours but increased by the Hit Die spent).

    So not only is it circumstantial in whether you could do it or not (as you're not going to have all of your Speed or Hit Dice to spend), but it also could just be a lot more expensive than you'd want it to be yet not in a way that failure means you're out for the round.

    And if the above isn't enough, you can tack on more stuff to it even further. Halve the damage dealt and have the DC be based on the final damage (that's what I did for my Called Shots homebrew), or require that you need Advantage on the attack roll to make the Called Shot, or whatever you can think of.

    Magic Missile is one of the most consistent spells in the game that removes the problem of chance in a game dictated by a 1d20, so why aren't people spamming it constantly? Because it's more expensive than it's worth.

    Consistency doesn't always equal strong, and strong doesn't always equal fun. Or, in another perspective, Barbarian vs. Champion.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2020-08-10 at 06:21 PM.
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Status conditions have poor application rates in JRPGs too. Depending on the effect they can have as little as 20% chance of applying. The idea being that you really only use them when it's important that the target has that condition on it.

    Blinding every orc? Worthless.
    Blinding a death knight? That might save your life and nerf his offense too.

    This discussion also seems to assume low level play. Higher level players may not resort to fingers but have weapons with a 10% chance to blind the target on strikes. All depends on how prolific you want the condition to be for your dungeon balance.
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    The "issue" with the Blindness spell is the opportunity cost. It competes for a Spell Known/Prepared with more powerful spells (Phantasmal Force)

    Were Blindness offered in a Melee Spell Attack Cantrip that doesn't cost a Cantrip Known, I'm sure it's usage would be far more common
    The opportunity cost for this idea is spending up to 2 turns doing something else to a single guy when you could be attacking. That seems enough to me. The spell is ranged and costs a single action. That's the advantage you get for spending a spell slot.

  19. - Top - End - #49

    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernPhoenix View Post
    The opportunity cost for this idea is spending up to 2 turns doing something else to a single guy when you could be attacking. That seems enough to me. The spell is ranged and costs a single action. That's the advantage you get for spending a spell slot.
    Or you could have 5 Tiny Servants or skeletons making 5 blinding attempts per round on your behalf, while still casting your own spells.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-08-10 at 06:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Yes: when you reduce a foe to 0 HP you may choose timo narrate it as blinding them, if you used a plausible weapon.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Or you could have 5 Tiny Servants or skeletons making 5 blinding attempts per round on your behalf, while still casting your own spells.
    I don't think this should be an option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Yes: when you reduce a foe to 0 HP you may choose timo narrate it as blinding them, if you used a plausible weapon.
    Again, the spell doesn't have this requirement.
    Last edited by NorthernPhoenix; 2020-08-10 at 08:11 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    I personally just put my foot down and say stick to existing mechanics for combat.

    But a quick ruleset could be: Disadvantage with a saving throw normally during combat, requiring a full action. During a suprise round you don't make the attack with disadadvantage. If you attemt it out of combat, you can make a contested Deception (Maybe Slight of Hand?) vs. Insight or Acrobatics check as well as a saving throw.
    Last edited by Blood of Gaea; 2020-08-10 at 10:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by GooeyChewie View Post
    If it's just a poke in the eye, I'd call it a fluffed Help action rather than give the target the Blinded condition.
    I agree that this is a pretty solid ruling. If a DM wanted to allow something a little more robust but not as potent as the Blinded condition you might also offer:

    Player uses action for an ability check based upon description of what player is trying to do.... wit DC, advantage or disadvantage based on circumstances.

    If successful, target is briefly disoriented and has disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks for the round. It's a little better than help, but not crazily so given it costs an action and has failure chance. It gives the player a die to roll, wich is more fun than just saying "auto success w help action". And it's not very conplicated.

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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernPhoenix View Post
    Again, the spell doesn't have this requirement.
    I agree, the spell doesn't have this requirement.

    Taking a knife and popping someone's eyeball doesn't follow the mechanics of the "blindness/deafness" spell at all nor should it.

    They won't get a constitution save on each of their turns to recover, they'll be in extreme pain (not just the blindness condition), etc.

    Poking someone in the eye with your fingers is no harder than doing it with a knife. So the mechanics for poking with fingers and with a knife should be the same.

    Once you are able to carve someone's eye out, not killing them becomes a challenge, not the other way around. So gating it based on "you reduced the target to 0 HP" is reasonable, and alternatives are not to me.

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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernPhoenix View Post
    The opportunity cost for this idea is spending up to 2 turns doing something else to a single guy when you could be attacking. That seems enough to me. The spell is ranged and costs a single action. That's the advantage you get for spending a spell slot.
    2 turns? Why would need two turns for a single action?

    The spell slot also has other disadvantages. For one, you need to be at least level 3. A blinded condition that any character can impose can be done at level 1. For two, you need to be of specific classes. And for three, it runs off of two limited resources, spells known/prepared and spell slots.

    You want to give everyone a better of a 2nd level spell? Go for it. Just don't pretend it's anything but that

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    2 turns? Why would need two turns for a single action?

    The spell slot also has other disadvantages. For one, you need to be at least level 3. A blinded condition that any character can impose can be done at level 1. For two, you need to be of specific classes. And for three, it runs off of two limited resources, spells known/prepared and spell slots.

    You want to give everyone a better of a 2nd level spell? Go for it. Just don't pretend it's anything but that
    1 Turn to grab them, 1 turn to do the maneuver (blinding in this case). And i find it interesting that giving martial characters (not everyone) an option almost as good as a spell is so incredibly shocking.

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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernPhoenix View Post
    1 Turn to grab them, 1 turn to do the maneuver (blinding in this case). And i find it interesting that giving martial characters (not everyone) an option almost as good as a spell is so incredibly shocking.
    I'm confused, how do you want to limit this to martial characters? Make it a class feature?

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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    I'm confused, how do you want to limit this to martial characters? Make it a class feature?
    There are any number of ways to do it. I'd personally just say anyone who isn't a martial character can't try because they're not good enough. We're not playing "RAW Only" here, after all.

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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernPhoenix View Post
    1 Turn to grab them, 1 turn to do the maneuver (blinding in this case). And i find it interesting that giving martial characters (not everyone) an option almost as good as a spell is so incredibly shocking.
    It's not necessarily about "power" but "consistency".

    Spells are fine, as they're generally conditional. There's a resource you're usually spending for them, so you're not allowed to use them every chance you'd want to.

    Martials don't have a universal resource in the same way. If they did something on turn 1, they're likely able to do something similar on turn 5. Being too consistent on something that's supposed to be conditional or flashy just makes it a new definition of boring.

    Although tying it to a Grapple is actually a pretty good idea, as requirements for a power to be used does cause something like a Fighter's turn to be less straightforward and more diverse. Problem is, Grappling inherently favors a specific type of character (Barbarians, mostly), and is very affordable for anyone who has an Extra Attack.

    So the first turn would be interesting, and not much after that.
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    Default Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernPhoenix View Post
    1 Turn to grab them, 1 turn to do the maneuver (blinding in this case). And i find it interesting that giving martial characters (not everyone) an option almost as good as a spell is so incredibly shocking.
    Did I say anything about grabbing? I sure don't remember that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    I'm confused, how do you want to limit this to martial characters? Make it a class feature?
    Yeah, I don't get what NP's talking about either.

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