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2020-08-10, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
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2020-08-10, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
If it's just a poke in the eye, I'd call it a fluffed Help action rather than give the target the Blinded condition.
We don't need no steeeenkin' signatures!
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2020-08-10, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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2020-08-10, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2019
Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
If I was DM: I'd be fine with a PC saying I wanna blind that guy with my hands. Make a grapple attack - if successful you hold your hands over that guys eyes for one round.
Is this RAW? Nope. But I think it's a reasonable ruling. The cost is an attack action and it only lasts one turn.
I would nerf it so that it would be your last attack of the round so that you could not grapple/blind first then continue to multi-attack w/ ADV because I think that would be too much.
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2020-08-10, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
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Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
I think it should definitely be possible, but it should be difficult enough to pull off that it is extremely situational.
I'd probably call for an Action (not an attack) to try to blind the opponent, making an Attack roll with auto Disadvantage. If it hits, then the target is still allowed a Con save (DC 8+Proficiency+Str/Dex). If they fail, they are blinded until the end of your next round.
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2020-08-10, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
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Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
That does seem a bit expensive.
A 70% chance to hit, after Disadvantage, becomes 49%. That's a drop in value by about 30% by itself. Assuming a 60% chance to not save after a 49% chance to hit, and you're looking at about a final 30% chance for that blind. On top of that, we're also cutting away at least one attack, possibly two or more.
The Blinding Action would have to be worth more than two rounds' worth of attacking to be worth attempting, due to the difference in success rates.
On the other hand, though, the Dodge Action is worth one round's worth of attacking. Is a Blind worth two turns of Dodging? Maybe?
I dunno, just doesn't feel like something that'd make the game a whole lot better. 30% chance of getting value out of your turn just doesn't seem like a good bargain, no matter how fair it is. It doesn't matter how much damage a Rogue does in a single hit, people will still complain how bad it feels to lose your entire turn on a single die roll.
If the success of the Champion means anything, it's that consistency is worth more to real players than math.Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2020-08-10 at 05:09 PM.
5th Edition Homebrewery
Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!
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2020-08-10, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
I agree which, is why my suggestion is that if you already have someone grappled, you can use your entire action (not attack) to replicate the Blindness spell, save every turn but 1min duration and all. Simple. You also can't reblind them if they're already blind. I feel that's neither too easy, nor so hard as to be pointless. And for the "reduce their hp to 0" comments, Blindness the spell doesn't require that.
Last edited by NorthernPhoenix; 2020-08-10 at 05:12 PM.
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2020-08-10, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2019
Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
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2020-08-10, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
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Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
Don't think a 30% chance to inflict a pretty powerful condition is expensive.
Instead of comparing to Dodge, compare it to Help (100% chance to give advantage to a single attack). This is 30% chance to give advantage on multiple attacks as well as disdavantage for every attack the creature makes.
On a standard party of 4, the Rogue can try to blind the attacker, granting advantage to 4 attacks (two from a Fighter and one each from a Wizard and a Cleric) and give Disadvantage on two attacks against anyone, not just the blinder.
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2020-08-10, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2019
Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
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2020-08-10, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
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Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
Right, I mean to say at the end that it seems fair. It doesn't matter, though, as what it doesn't seem is fun.
Players would rather pay 30% of their HP than 30% of their chance for participation, as even losing is still a form of playing the game, while doing nothing for 2/3 turns...speaks for itself.Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2020-08-10 at 05:39 PM.
5th Edition Homebrewery
Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!
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2020-08-10, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
Temporarily? Sure, under the Improvised Action rules. Permanently, well, I'd make that quite difficult, because permanent damage is not idiomatic for 5E.
My Rule of Yes says that the first time you try something it pretty much just works, so the first time someone does it I'd say, "If you hit with this attack, the guy is blind for a round." On second and subsequent attempts the DM will stop to come up with actual rules, which would probably borrow inspiration from both Battlemaster maneuvers and AD&D called shots and the Complete Fighter's Handbook. I'd probably wind up imposing both a to-hit penalty and a damage threshold, something like "eye strikes have a -8 to-hit penalty, and if you do 10% or more of the target's total HP to the eyes in one round, the target is blinded temporarily, with a DC 15 Con save at the end of its turn to recover." Other targets like the hamstrings would have a higher damage threshold but a lower to-hit penalty and different effects, like movement penalties, or temporary loss of claw attacks, or falling prone and not being able to rise.
Fingers don't do much damage so by my hypothetical rule above this wouldn't work well except against mooks of ~40 HP or less (assuming Str bonus of +3 to damage for total damage of 4, unless you're a monk). I recommend using a dagger instead of your fingers.
Be careful with this ruling--if you make it work as well as a at-will Blindness spell you're making eye-poking Tiny Servant/Animate Dead more powerful than you probably intended.
Obligatory "Go for the eyes, Boo!" I've never actually played Baldur's Gate beyond the intro sequence but I know the meme.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-08-10 at 05:56 PM.
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2020-08-10, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
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2020-08-10, 05:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
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2020-08-10, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
The "issue" with the Blindness spell is the opportunity cost. It competes for a Spell Known/Prepared with more powerful spells (Phantasmal Force)
Were Blindness offered in a Melee Spell Attack Cantrip that doesn't cost a Cantrip Known, I'm sure it's usage would be far more commonLast edited by heavyfuel; 2020-08-10 at 05:58 PM.
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2020-08-10, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
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Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
I agree, that's what makes it complicated.
Berserker's mathematically stronger than Champion, yet players like the Champion more.
That's why my suggestion is to have too high of a rate of success compared to what most would find acceptable for a regular use of Blind, but then follow it up with a bunch of extra costs. Mine had:- Movement equal to your Speed
- A Hit Die
- A Bonus Action
- The fact that it can only apply to your next attack, whether it hits or not.
- The fact that it can save (although the DC for it is the same as yours but increased by the Hit Die spent).
So not only is it circumstantial in whether you could do it or not (as you're not going to have all of your Speed or Hit Dice to spend), but it also could just be a lot more expensive than you'd want it to be yet not in a way that failure means you're out for the round.
And if the above isn't enough, you can tack on more stuff to it even further. Halve the damage dealt and have the DC be based on the final damage (that's what I did for my Called Shots homebrew), or require that you need Advantage on the attack roll to make the Called Shot, or whatever you can think of.
Magic Missile is one of the most consistent spells in the game that removes the problem of chance in a game dictated by a 1d20, so why aren't people spamming it constantly? Because it's more expensive than it's worth.
Consistency doesn't always equal strong, and strong doesn't always equal fun. Or, in another perspective, Barbarian vs. Champion.Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2020-08-10 at 06:21 PM.
5th Edition Homebrewery
Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!
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2020-08-10, 06:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
Status conditions have poor application rates in JRPGs too. Depending on the effect they can have as little as 20% chance of applying. The idea being that you really only use them when it's important that the target has that condition on it.
Blinding every orc? Worthless.
Blinding a death knight? That might save your life and nerf his offense too.
This discussion also seems to assume low level play. Higher level players may not resort to fingers but have weapons with a 10% chance to blind the target on strikes. All depends on how prolific you want the condition to be for your dungeon balance.Trolls will be blocked. Petrification works far better than fire and acid.
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2020-08-10, 06:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
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2020-08-10, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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2020-08-10, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
Yes: when you reduce a foe to 0 HP you may choose timo narrate it as blinding them, if you used a plausible weapon.
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2020-08-10, 08:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
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2020-08-10, 10:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
I personally just put my foot down and say stick to existing mechanics for combat.
But a quick ruleset could be: Disadvantage with a saving throw normally during combat, requiring a full action. During a suprise round you don't make the attack with disadadvantage. If you attemt it out of combat, you can make a contested Deception (Maybe Slight of Hand?) vs. Insight or Acrobatics check as well as a saving throw.Last edited by Blood of Gaea; 2020-08-10 at 10:56 PM.
Reality is relative, and there is an exception to every rule.
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2020-08-11, 05:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
I agree that this is a pretty solid ruling. If a DM wanted to allow something a little more robust but not as potent as the Blinded condition you might also offer:
Player uses action for an ability check based upon description of what player is trying to do.... wit DC, advantage or disadvantage based on circumstances.
If successful, target is briefly disoriented and has disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks for the round. It's a little better than help, but not crazily so given it costs an action and has failure chance. It gives the player a die to roll, wich is more fun than just saying "auto success w help action". And it's not very conplicated.
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2020-08-11, 07:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
I agree, the spell doesn't have this requirement.
Taking a knife and popping someone's eyeball doesn't follow the mechanics of the "blindness/deafness" spell at all nor should it.
They won't get a constitution save on each of their turns to recover, they'll be in extreme pain (not just the blindness condition), etc.
Poking someone in the eye with your fingers is no harder than doing it with a knife. So the mechanics for poking with fingers and with a knife should be the same.
Once you are able to carve someone's eye out, not killing them becomes a challenge, not the other way around. So gating it based on "you reduced the target to 0 HP" is reasonable, and alternatives are not to me.
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2020-08-11, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
2 turns? Why would need two turns for a single action?
The spell slot also has other disadvantages. For one, you need to be at least level 3. A blinded condition that any character can impose can be done at level 1. For two, you need to be of specific classes. And for three, it runs off of two limited resources, spells known/prepared and spell slots.
You want to give everyone a better of a 2nd level spell? Go for it. Just don't pretend it's anything but that
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2020-08-11, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
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2020-08-11, 09:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
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2020-08-11, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-11, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?
It's not necessarily about "power" but "consistency".
Spells are fine, as they're generally conditional. There's a resource you're usually spending for them, so you're not allowed to use them every chance you'd want to.
Martials don't have a universal resource in the same way. If they did something on turn 1, they're likely able to do something similar on turn 5. Being too consistent on something that's supposed to be conditional or flashy just makes it a new definition of boring.
Although tying it to a Grapple is actually a pretty good idea, as requirements for a power to be used does cause something like a Fighter's turn to be less straightforward and more diverse. Problem is, Grappling inherently favors a specific type of character (Barbarians, mostly), and is very affordable for anyone who has an Extra Attack.
So the first turn would be interesting, and not much after that.
5th Edition Homebrewery
Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!
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2020-08-11, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
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Re: Can a character blind an opponent by poking them in the eyes?