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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Zombie Beholder + 2 Shadows vs LvL 5

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze View Post
    Afraid of a TPK, but also looking at options of winning the fight in a single round...

    Yep, it's D&D 5e.
    It's a sad Truth of how the game evolved. Designing encounters that have more than three or four meaningful rounds in them is possible but is a huge time sink.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Zombie Beholder + 2 Shadows vs LvL 5

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze View Post
    Afraid of a TPK, but also looking at options of winning the fight in a single round...

    Yep, it's D&D 5e.
    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    It's a sad Truth of how the game evolved. Designing encounters that have more than three or four meaningful rounds in them is possible but is a huge time sink.
    Not sure how this situation is a "5e thing".

    Shadows are known for being either death incarnate due to their STR-attacking or getting rekt rapidly due to being squishy incorporeal undead beings, and that also applies to other systems. Once my gaming group thought we were getting a TPK during our Pathfinder campaign due to a room with half a dozen Shadows and we were lvl 12+. Then it turned out we had something that protected us from the STR-drain and the Shadows died in about a round.

    Meanwhile the Zombie Beholder is scary for a lvl 5 party but it's still an undead fighting a Paladin. And the action economy is definitively on the PCs' side here, even without taking into account it's a full-undead monster group that the Cleric can turn.


    Now if 5e actually does have a tendency to have fights no longer than 3-4 meaningful rounds... honestly I wouldn't see it as a problem. 3-4 rounds is enough for an awesome, if not important fight, though important fights lasting longer is probably better.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Zombie Beholder + 2 Shadows vs LvL 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Not sure how this situation is a "5e thing".

    Shadows are known for being either death incarnate due to their STR-attacking or getting rekt rapidly due to being squishy incorporeal undead beings, and that also applies to other systems. Once my gaming group thought we were getting a TPK during our Pathfinder campaign due to a room with half a dozen Shadows and we were lvl 12+. Then it turned out we had something that protected us from the STR-drain and the Shadows died in about a round.

    Meanwhile the Zombie Beholder is scary for a lvl 5 party but it's still an undead fighting a Paladin. And the action economy is definitively on the PCs' side here, even without taking into account it's a full-undead monster group that the Cleric can turn.


    Now if 5e actually does have a tendency to have fights no longer than 3-4 meaningful rounds... honestly I wouldn't see it as a problem. 3-4 rounds is enough for an awesome, if not important fight, though important fights lasting longer is probably better.
    its not just a 5e thing. PF and 3.X had similar issues with nova or die encounters. in a perfect world i'd like the majority of my encounters to have some back and forth in momentum for at least 2 rounds. i have roughly a 50% success rate lol.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Zombie Beholder + 2 Shadows vs LvL 5

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    But the chance of that is slim to none.
    Hmm, I asked about fog cloud, but I read the post and Tempest Cleric didn't register on me. TC has fog cloud and has Turn Undead which will run off one or both of the shadows unless they do a great job of rolling saves and rendering the Turn Undead moot.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Zombie Beholder + 2 Shadows vs LvL 5

    From a DM perspective, Shadows are incredibly fragile. At 16hp, a Fireball will kill them or nearly kill them. A Scorching Ray that all hits will kill them. Two castings of Magic Missile will kill one. Figure out how to knock out the Shadows fast, and then it's everyone vs. the Beholder.

  6. - Top - End - #36

    Default Re: Zombie Beholder + 2 Shadows vs LvL 5

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    From a DM perspective, Shadows are incredibly fragile. At 16hp, a Fireball will kill them or nearly kill them. A Scorching Ray that all hits will kill them. Two castings of Magic Missile will kill one. Figure out how to knock out the Shadows fast, and then it's everyone vs. the Beholder.
    IMO they're not fragile at all once you take resistances into account. Shadows are resistant to acid, cold, fire, lightning, thunder, and nonmagical BPS. Three hits with Scorching Ray will only do 3d6 (10) damage, not enough to kill one. Even if they fail their Fireball save, they'll take only 14 points of damage from the typical Fireball, surviving with 2 HP, and that's if you even spotted them in the first place despite their Stealth +6 and bonus action Hide. If they make their Fireball save they'll have 9/16 HP left.

    It's fully possible the PCs in this scenario aren't dealing with only 2 Shadows. Maybe those are just the ones who rolled low on Stealth. 9 Shadows + 1 Zombie Beholder is only 5400 XP (Hard), out of a 21,000 adjusted XP daily budget. There could be a TON of other Shadows lurking, depending on how the DM's mind works.

    Killing 1 Shadow with repeated Magic Missiles is a lot easier than killing 9 of them who are busy strafing you from the darkness.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-08-10 at 02:23 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Zombie Beholder + 2 Shadows vs LvL 5

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    IMO they're not fragile at all once you take resistances into account. Shadows are resistant to acid, cold, fire, lightning, thunder, and nonmagical BPS. Three hits with Scorching Ray will only do 3d6 (10) damage, not enough to kill one. Even if they fail their Fireball save, they'll take only 14 points of damage from the typical Fireball, surviving with 2 HP, and that's if you even spotted them in the first place despite their Stealth +6 and bonus action Hide.

    It's fully possible the PCs in this scenario aren't dealing with only 2 Shadows. Maybe those are just the ones who rolled low on Stealth. 9 Shadows + 1 Zombie Beholder is only 5400 XP (Hard), out of a 21,000 adjusted XP daily budget. There could be a TON of other Shadows lurking, depending on how the DM's mind works.

    Killing 1 Shadow with repeated Magic Missiles is a lot easier than killing 9 of them who are busy strafing you from the darkness.
    thats what my inner player is thinking as well. get a big light effect spell going and get a solid grasp of what your facing before you start trying to blitz forward. the fact the shadows can squeeze into very small spaces makes this a huge red flag for a double back style ambush.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Zombie Beholder + 2 Shadows vs LvL 5

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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Zombie Beholder + 2 Shadows vs LvL 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Truth be told I forgot that thread existed, but this is a little different because I know more information now and that previous thread was mainly focused on guessing what kind of beholder it was.

    (I know more now because DM was too giddy to keep secrets)

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