Is Xykon truly Evil?

[Brutalitops]

He felt sad once when his god died when he was three but then he started killing animals for fun with zombie dog.

He had no external pressure to be evil and his main conflict was that people did not respect him as a sorcerer.

Roy had the same problem as a fighter but he is Good and Xykon is evil


He was pretty affable when he was a human. An unrepentant mass murderer who killed stole and terrorised the world but he could still had a few non evil interests and get along with evil people.


But as a Lich he lost all those non evil hobbies and became much smarter making him a lot more violent vindictive and deadly.

[Emperor Time]

What he did to the Paladins of the Sapphire Guard alone shows he pretty much evil to the core. Since he could have killed them in a way that didn't involve them killing each other due to insanity. Also he doesn't even care when his allies die since he can turn them into loyal undead followers. He is funny at times but he is so evil that there could be evil gods that are less evil than him easily. And if that true then he must be truly evil.

[C-Dude]

He killed Eugene Greenhilt's mentor to steal a crown that he thought was stylish.

I'd say smash-and-grab fashion is pretty chaotic evil.

[Jason]

Word of The Giant is that Xykon is definitely evil and is not redeemable. In fact, he did everything he could to make Xykon non-sympathetic in Start of Darkness.

[RatElemental]

Word of The Giant is that Xykon is definitely evil and is not redeemable. In fact, he did everything he could to make Xykon non-sympathetic in Start of Darkness.

Irredeemable as in won't be redeemed, extremely impractical to redeem, or outright impossible to redeem?

[Mightymosy]

He is undead.


Redeeming him is like trying to make a succubus a faithful housewife. She will be the housewife if you put out (and survive) but she won't ever be faithful. Xykon lost the capacity for goodness awhile back.

Succubi being perfect housewife confirmed

[understatement]

On the redeemability of Xykon, this handy chart from TV tropes is guaranteed to work and totally has an 100% rate of success on it.

Spoiler: what the chart tells me

Show

Species: Used to be human...but became a lich, which is pretty much a Demon in terms of evil rigidity. 1
Gender: Male. 2.
Age: Over 110 years old. 1.
Role: The Big Bad, and the driving conflict. 1.
Aesthetics: A skeleton with glowing red eyes. 1.
Motivation:To watch the world burn and silver spandex. 1.
Characterization: Over-the-top-and-knows-it evil. 1.
Contentness: Loves being evil. 1.
Morality of the story: A range, from pure Evil to pure Good, and all in between. 4.
Cynicism of the story: Somewhat idealistic, but has hard truths. 4.

17/10 = 1.7. Hovering between "Never" and "Highly Unlikely" -- which seems to be fairly close to the consensus.

For fun, I also did Redcloak and Tarquin (all opinions, ofc):

Spoiler: RC

Show

Species: Humanoid (goblin). 2.
Gender: Male. 2.
Age: N/A
Role: The definite Dragon. 4.
Aesthetics: Normal, except for the missing eye. 2.5
Motivation: Had good intentions, but evil methods. 3.5
Characterization: Does have standards, but very solidly LE. 3.2.
Contentness: Hates being under Xykon. 4.5.
Morality of the story: A range, from pure Evil to pure Good, and all in between. 4.
Cynicism of the story: Somewhat idealistic, but has hard truths. 4.

29.7/9 = 3.3. Fairly squarely on "who knows?"

Spoiler: Tarquin

Show

Species: Human. 3.
Gender: Male. 2.
Age: Pushing fifties. 1.
Role: Major arc villain. 1.5.
Aesthetics: Looks like Elan, who is known for charisma. 4.
Motivation: As much power as reasonably possible. 2.
Characterization: Cold-blooded would be an understatement. 3.
Contentness: Enjoys it, but wants an epic narrative. 2.
Morality of the story: A range, from pure Evil to pure Good, and all in between. 4.
Cynicism of the story: Somewhat idealistic, but has hard truths. 4.

35.5/10 = 3.55. Hovering between "who knows?" and "quite probable." Doesn't sound right, but whatever.

[JennTora]

I'd say anyone could theoretically be redeemed, but for xykon? You have a better chance of finding $1,000,000,000 lying on the sidewalk.

As for whether his evil is a reaction to society, the only ones that seem to have a problem with sorcerers are some wizards. Only some. Vaarsuvius didn't say anything about xykon being a sorcerer, and certainly doesn't seem to look down on them as much as, say warlocks. :p

[Metastachydium]

Irredeemable as in won't be redeemed, extremely impractical to redeem, or outright impossible to redeem?

How about ”won't be redeeemed, because that would be extremely difficult at the very least, if not outright impossible”?

[dancrilis]

How about ”won't be redeeemed, because that would be extremely difficult at the very least, if not outright impossible”?

There is an arguement that Xykon could do it delibrately via the Atonment spell (he might need to mind control some good aligned entity to cast it), subject to the criteria of 'must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds' but even that bit can be handwaved and might not even apply to the alignment change element of the spell (also it would depend on if Undead can change their alignment naturally).

If atonement doesn't work he could do the same plan via Santify the Wicked - which would work.

And those are ignoring him merely developing Xykon's Amazing Alignment Shifting Spell - a spell that kicks in on final death as the soul is about to go to its final resting place, traps it for an instant and reformats it to suit the afterlife of the casters choice (that way he wouldn't even need to tolerate living with his evil deeds).

Why would he do this?
Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below.

[JennTora]

There is an arguement that Xykon could do it delibrately via the Atonment spell (he might need to mind control some good aligned entity to cast it), subject to the criteria of 'must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds' but even that bit can be handwaved and might not even apply to the alignment change element of the spell (also it would depend on if Undead can change their alignment naturally).

If atonement doesn't work he could do the same plan via Santify the Wicked - which would work.

And those are ignoring him merely developing Xykon's Amazing Alignment Shifting Spell - a spell that kicks in on final death as the soul is about to go to its final resting place, traps it for an instant and reformats it to suit the afterlife of the casters choice (that way he wouldn't even need to tolerate living with his evil deeds).

I mean, sure, I guess he could do that. Kind of like a helm of opposite alignment spell. But that assumes the devas are gonna put up with him gaming the system like that. That seems unlikely, given how much Roy was analyzed. And even then, they could well have sections of the afterlife set up for people who pull that kind of crap. Iirc there's a place in the neutral good afterlife for penitent evil doers in many settings and those people don't exactly enjoy themselves.

I would argue that's not true redemption at any rate, and is basically just him mind controlling himself.

Why would he do this?
Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below.

I think what that statement was supposed to mean was "there's plenty of ways they could have avoided death, so they're honestly just has beens as far as I'm concerned."

Considering the next line admonishes them for not being able to stay in the game.

[Metastachydium]

I mean, sure, I guess he could do that. Kind of like a helm of opposite alignment spell. But that assumes the devas are gonna put up with him gaming the system like that. That seems unlikely, given how much Roy was analyzed. And even then, they could well have sections of the afterlife set up for people who pull that kind of crap. Iirc there's a place in the neutral good afterlife for penitent evil doers and those people don't exactly enjoy themselves.

I would argue that's not true redemption at any rate, and is basically just him mind controlling himself.

Exactly. The question is not whether Xykon could find a way to become (nominally) Good or not; the question is whether he can be reedemed.
And yes, so far as we know, alignment-at-the-time-of-death does not determine the final resting place of the soul. It determines the place where one's life will be assessed, as well as the type of creature who will assess it and the exact method used.

[dancrilis]

And yes, so far as we know, alignment-at-the-time-of-death does not determine the final resting place of the soul. It determines the place where one's life will be assessed, as well as the type of creature who will assess it and the exact method used.

Sure about that, because the way I read it you get judged by the people you think should judge you - but you get into where your alignment dictates.

There are only 17 Outer Planes; Roy's alignment would have to match one of them, because you can't not have an alignment. The deva only got "first look" because Lawful Good was the alignment Roy declared himself to be. It was his goal, and the review was to see if he had really met that goal. If he didn't, that would mean he actually had some other alignment, in which case the powers-that-be on that plane would have been happy to have him. Generally speaking, a character who really is alignment X on the inside will be admitted to plane X with no problems, except in certain special circumstances (Eugene, for example).

[Metastachydium]

Sure about that, because the way I read it you get judged by the people you think should judge you - but you get into where your alignment dictates.

Indeed. However, what matters is not the nominal alignment, but the actual one. If how Roy almost lost his Lawful Good status for one (granted, major) misdeed (abandoning Elan to his fate) is anything to go by, Xykon's Amazing Alignment Shifting Spell (as you described it) would not do much good to Xykon. I'd rather think it would be added to the list of his various transgressions.
Now, Sanctify the Wicked could, in fact, work, but I don't quite see Xykon deliberately getting his soul trapped in some gem for an entire year so that he'll be able to live on as a goody-two-shoes reformed criminal.

[dancrilis]

Indeed. However, what matters is not the nominal alignment, but the actual one. If how Roy almost lost his Lawful Good status for one (granted, major) misdeed (abandoning Elan to his fate) is anything to go by, Xykon's Amazing Alignment Shifting Spell (as you described it) would not do much good to Xykon. I'd rather think it would be added to the list of his various transgressions.
Now, Sanctify the Wicked could, in fact, work, but I don't quite see Xykon deliberately getting his soul trapped in some gem for an entire year so that he'll be able to live on as a goody-two-shoes reformed criminal.

There is no fundamental difference between the alignment shift from Santify the Wicked, Atonement or Xykon's Amazing Alignment Shifting Spell (at least as I envison the custom spell created solely for this thread) - as such if he used any of those methods the new alignment would be the actual alignment.

[Metastachydium]

There is no fundamental difference between the alignment shift from Santify the Wicked, Atonement or Xykon's Amazing Alignment Shifting Spell (at least as I envison the custom spell created solely for this thread) - as such if he used any of those methods the new alignment would be the actual alignment.

From what we have seen, alignment in Stickverse is not a label, but rather a function of the Permanent Record. That's why I'm saying that Sanctify the Wicked would probably work, while Amazing Alignment Shift probably wouldn't.

[Darth Paul]

Succubi being perfect housewife confirmed

Bonus points because she's the perfect housewife for the whole neighborhood at once! (Sometimes she will housewife for married couples, too! But let's not go into that here...)

[JavaScribe]

Psychopaths and sadists are about as close as you get to being born evil. His mind is literally wired to feel rewarded by hurting others and lacks the mechanisms that would cause a normal person to feel sympathy. So yeah, short of magical brain-surgery, nothing is going to redeem Xykon. Seeing as he's literally proud of being a villain, he wouldn't even want it.

[Mightymosy]

Bonus points because she's the perfect housewife for the whole neighborhood at once! (Sometimes she will housewife for married couples, too! But let's not go into that here...)

At a certain point, everything is about bonus points

I, mean, look at Maslow's pyramid over here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow...f_needshttp://
I am pretty sure it says "Running up the score" at the very top, just in very fine print

[RatElemental]

Indeed. However, what matters is not the nominal alignment, but the actual one. If how Roy almost lost his Lawful Good status for one (granted, major) misdeed (abandoning Elan to his fate) is anything to go by, Xykon's Amazing Alignment Shifting Spell (as you described it) would not do much good to Xykon. I'd rather think it would be added to the list of his various transgressions.
Now, Sanctify the Wicked could, in fact, work, but I don't quite see Xykon deliberately getting his soul trapped in some gem for an entire year so that he'll be able to live on as a goody-two-shoes reformed criminal.

"Xykon's Amazing Alignment Shifting" Would be added to Xykon's crimes, maybe. I can grant that. But the person coming out of it wouldn't really be Xykon anymore if he completely rewrote his personality in an instant. Sending that person to the abyss would be like sending someone there because their father was evil and they couldn't do anything to stop him doing evil things before they existed.

[Tvtyrant]

It is possible to be sure.

@vinyadan: I have had the same problem with music CDs and my spouse for about as long as we've been married. (30+years) Had not thought of the crossbow as a solution

I just went back and checked, and when Banjo attempts to smite Roy he doesn't reveal his quiddity.

[JennTora]

"Xykon's Amazing Alignment Shifting" Would be added to Xykon's crimes, maybe. I can grant that. But the person coming out of it wouldn't really be Xykon anymore if he completely rewrote his personality in an instant. Sending that person to the abyss would be like sending someone there because their father was evil and they couldn't do anything to stop him doing evil things before they existed.

Which is why I don't think clean alignment shift spells like this should exist or even be possible. Helms of opposite alignment are enchantment effects iirc and corruption is pretty much shoving a bunch of evil thoughts in the person's mind so both are much easier.

You're right, good aligned xykon isn't exactly xykon anymore. Of course that also means the discussion of what happens to him is off topic. :P

I don't think they'd send him to the abyss without reversing the effect, tbh. Either he'd go wherever penitent villains go if there's such a place in heaven in oots or they'd be like "yeah, nice try," strip the alignment change off him and send him to the abyss.

I don't think it's precisely reward/punishment anyway. It's what afterlife suits you best.

[RatElemental]

If it's not about punishment, then why undo the effect instead of just accepting the epic level soul that literally rewrote itself to be a fit for your afterlife?

Redemption is, in afterlife systems described by DND and OotS, the highest moral good you can accomplish. It deprives the hoards of the abyss a soul AND wins one for the upper planes in the process. Realistically I think they'd just chalk it up as a win and let Nokyx into the afterlife.

As far as a helm of opposite alignment goes, I don't see how that's any different than a spell that does, more or less, the same thing. It's not even an artifact, you can craft it as a simple 12th level caster if you have just one feat. It's also more than just a "cosmetic" change, your entire worldview is changed, you look at the prospect of 'fixing' your new alignment with horror and actively resist attempts to, and that's assuming you can get a wish or miracle spell cast to undo it in the first place.

Far more likely that, in OotS, it simply doesn't exist and this kind of magic is impossible, or at least it gets the True Resurrection treatment.

[paddyfool]

Evil in OoTS is a thing, whether an energy or property, or whatever. It is detectable and it can interact with magic. It exists as something more than an adjective, and Xykon's full of it. He even had enough of it to imbue his crown with it.

This. And regarding the crown... it was so imbued with evil that it made pretty thoroughly good mid to high level PCs like Roy and Durkon register as evil. Just from having been worn by Xykon.

[JennTora]

If it's not about punishment, then why undo the effect instead of just accepting the epic level soul that literally rewrote itself to be a fit for your afterlife?

Well, In OOTS word of giant is the afterlife exists to turn people into the perfect alignment batteries to feed the gods. Therefore the process of judging souls which we saw Roy undergo likely has something to do with it. Maybe this kind of game breaks down over the long term? Seems likely to be. The Deva that judged him was ready to chuck his soul into the true neutral bin because he abandoned Elan. Likely because Roy wouldn't have been lawful good enough to become a lawful good alignment battery.

Redemption is, in afterlife systems described by DND and OotS, the highest moral good you can accomplish. It deprives the hoards of the abyss a soul AND wins one for the upper planes in the process. Realistically I think they'd just chalk it up as a win and let Konyx into the afterlife.

Wouldn't it be nokyx?

As far as a helm of opposite alignment goes, I don't see how that's any different than a spell that does, more or less, the same thing.

Because I forgot how it worked. I thought if you just took it off the person they changed back but they refused any attempt to remove it...

Far more likely that, in OotS, it simply doesn't exist and this kind of magic is impossible, or at least it gets the True Resurrection treatment.

Kind of my point.

[KorvinStarmast]

I just went back and checked, and when Banjo attempts to smite Roy he doesn't reveal his quiddity.

Are you banking on this being a clue to some big reveal at the end?

Well, In OOTS word of giant is the afterlife exists to turn people into the perfect alignment batteries to feed the dogs.

Feeding a dog batteries would be an evil act. Then again, most dogs won't touch 'em. My dogs prefer milk bone, etc ...

[Tvtyrant]

Are you banking on this being a clue to some big reveal at the end?
Feeding a dog batteries would be an evil act. Then again, most dogs won't touch 'em. My dogs prefer milk bone, etc ...

Nah, I just had some idle curiosity about it.

[brian 333]

Xykon: Oh no! I am about to die and exist in eternal torment forever! I hope...
Contingency, Xykon's Amazing Alignment Adjustment, Lawful Good
There it is!

Later, on a puffy cloud...

Deva: Mr. Xykon, is it? I can't seem to find your permanent record. It's almort like our network has been hacked and your files have been deleted, but that would require Epic level Evil magic. Ah, found something.

"To whom it may concern, Xykon has been real good, and never zombified anything that never deserved it."

And it's signed.'Xykon's Mom.' Well, that cinches it. Welcome to Paradise, Mr. X.

[Dr.Zero]

Actually this raises another question: if someway your brain connections are rewired and rewritten so deeply, is that individual still you or just someone with your memories and your body? (Durkon would say it's you, but yet what happens when the vampire becomes him is to get even his same alignment)

So is Xykon avoiding himself hell and cheating for the haven, or is Xykon lirerally destorying himself to give the pleasure of heaven to another creature?

(Anyway it might be worth it, if hell is all pain and no fun, like he seems to think: eventlly he will be merged in a battery and lose his coscience, he can quicken the process as well avoid the pain at least.)

[dancrilis]

Actually this raises another question: if someway your brain connections are rewired and rewritten so deeply, is that individual still you or just someone with your memories and your body? (Durkon would say it's you, but yet what happens when the vampire becomes him is to get even his same alignment)

So is Xykon avoiding himself hell and cheating for the haven, or is Xykon lirerally destorying himself to give the pleasure of heaven to another creature?

(Anyway it might be worth it, if hell is all pain and no fun, like he seems to think: eventlly he will be merged in a battery and lose his coscience, he can quicken the process as well avoid the pain at least.)

If Xykon's custom spell was effectively a faster version of the same principle that underlines Santify the Wicked then presumedly it would be still him - just after he found the spark of goodness within his soul that apparently exists in every creature.

And I doubt that the CG afterlife would really care that much, they probably are fine with people who screw the rules every now and then, especially when screwing the rules helps the forces of good and doesn't help the forces of evil.