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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    d20 Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    Hi everyone, TL;DR at the bottom!

    I'm just about to finish a year-long CoS campaign in which I've played a tiefling Lore Bard 8/Warlock 2 based on Kvothe from the Name of the Wind and I've had an absolute blast. After this, another DM in my group is going to run a possibly year-long ToA campaign and has already warned us that things can and will get tough. So, while I value role-playing over minmaxing, I'm going to need a moderately-optimized character to play with.

    The Party
    The rest of the members of the group are a paladin (vengeance most likely), a lizardfolk moon druid (nature/tanky/utility) and a wizard (don't know much).

    The Setting
    I only know that there's a lot of jungle with survival elements and that there's something going on with the Undead. We've got Angry Paladin for the latter, and I hope a Moon Druid and a Rogue Scout will suffice for the former. Apart from that, I don't nor I want to know much more about it —please keep this spoiler-free!

    The Idea
    I've been thinking about playing a Tabaxi for quite a while now (because "Khajiit stole nothing" and purring shenanigans) and I figured rogue scout would make for a cool and useful class on this setting —although I believe Arcane Trickster would make for a more fun and flavourful archetype.

    The Background
    J'Zargo and his twin brother S'Lazar leave their village, in the distant lands of Elsweyr, to honor the Rite of Passage, a coming-of-age tradition in which all Tabaxi from a strong bloodline must leave the village, travel the world, and come back eventually with something worthy for the clan —be it a great feat, a rare magic item, the favor of a powerful ally in a distant kingdom, a newly established trading route or notably valuable information for the Tabaxi's Great Encyclopedia.

    While J'Zargo absolutely admires and adores his wise, charismatic, good-hearted brother, he himself sees life under a dimmer, sadder light. Was it the raid on the village, was it the death of his childhood love, was it the ever-growing shadow his brother always casted over him? J'Zargo did not know, and he could not be bothered.

    After several months of travel amassing gold, trinkets, contacts and stories, the brothers fall prey to bandits while resting at a seemingly abandoned campsite (or to an elaborate scheme by a recently made enemy?). After a gruesome battle where S'Lazar is slain, the bandits retreat in disarray and J'Zargo manages to reach a big city with a fraction of his fortune and his dead brother on his back. Surely, all this coin will be enough to pay for the services of a priest, yes?
    Spoiler: ToA spoiler
    Show
    ...but it would seem there's some magic to prevent resurrections, or something along the lines. Thus, making J'Zargo embark on a journey to find a way to save his brother


    The Dilemma
    Why not ranger, you may ask? Because our DM only allows official content, so no UA and thus, no revised ranger. That's why I had in mind some kind of rogue, rogue-fighter character with some knowledge about the wilderness. I want a character that is good at combat but has uses outside of it as well, especially with survival skills. Also, I've been wanting to play a morally grey character for some time now and I believe rogue-fighter fits the idea.
    Also, recently played a dwarf life cleric up to level 5 and while I had fun role-playing, I wasn't amused by the class, so no nature cleric for me.

    The Proposal <- TL;DR!
    A very mobile sniper that can get to high places by climbing, then sneak attacks, runs off to another cover, and hides again. I'd really like to go for the archery flavour, but ideally he will hold its own a bit on melee, despite the abysmal AC. He will try to consistently SA, while trying to stay away from the fray as much as possible.

    J'Zargo is a bit of a coward, and this shows in his combat style. He lacks the sheer courage, brightness and straightforwardness of his brother, and tries to make it up with schemes, ambushes and tricks.

    Stats using standard point-buy:
    STR 8: is not really needed for anything
    DEX 17 = 15 (+2 tabaxi): because rogue
    CON 15: because survivability
    INT 10: average
    WIS 12: for perception, nature and survival skills
    CHA 12 = 11 (+1 tabaxi): for some deception

    Ideas:
    • First ASI goes to +1 DEX +1 CON for 18 and 16, second goes to Skulker or Sharpshooter.
    • Might want to go 8 17 15 14 10 9 to dip a wizard level (cantrips, mage armor, find familiar + help), or maybe go AC instead of Scout
    • Dip into fighter for Archery and Second-wind?
    • Dip into any other class?
    • Any other way of making SA as much as possible?

    I know it's a lenghty post, but if you made it here and have something to say, please do not hesitate to do so!
    Last edited by sirteyo; 2020-08-10 at 01:45 PM.
    “Isn’t it splendid to think of all the things there are to find out about? It just makes me feel glad to be alive–it’s such an interesting world. It wouldn’t be half so interesting if we know all about everything, would it? There’d be no scope for imagination then, would there?”

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    I have a deep seated aversion to Tabaxi Rogues due to multiple bad experiences with PC's who turn on the party or run away with no concern for the rest of the party members. So don't do that or you will only fuel my prejudice. But that's about me - you asked about you.


    Mechanically, Tabaxi make fine Rogues. XBE and SS are always good choices for ranged rogues. Arcane Trickster w/ Find Familiar is a nice way to spam the help action to ensure SA. I haven't found Scout to be as useful as AT (the prof is nice but the movement isn't as relevant as I'd hoped IME).

    I prefer my rogues w/ multi-attack so I like to MC, but XBE helps there but also creates BA competition.

    If your Pali plans to be a good face then great, but if not I'd bump CHA and look at expertise in persuasion/deception.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    Quote Originally Posted by sirteyo View Post
    I've had an absolute blast.
    So long as it was an eldritch blast ...
    The Party
    paladin (vengeance most likely), a lizardfolk moon druid (nature/tanky/utility) and a wizard (don't know much).
    Spoiler: ToA spoiler
    Show
    ...but it would seem there's some magic to prevent resurrections, or something along the lines. Thus, making J'Zargo embark on a journey to find a way to save his brother
    Nearly identical to the motivation for my Gloom Stalker Ranger ToA. I like it, but I am biased, eh?
    The Dilemma
    Have you tried Gloom Stalker Ranger? Have you thought through that one? It's a good kit.
    Stats using standard point-buy:
    STR 8: is not really needed for anything
    DEX 17 = 15 (+2 tabaxi): because rogue
    CON 15: because survivability
    INT 10: average
    WIS 12: for perception, nature and survival skills
    CHA 12 = 11 (+1 tabaxi): for some deception
    Looks good to me.
    Ideas (Edited for brevity):
    • First ASI goes to +1 DEX +1 CON for 18 and 16, second goes to Skulker or Sharpshooter.
    • Dip into fighter for Archery and Second-wind?
    I'd go SS. Suggest against a dip if you want feats and ASI. The campaign will likely end at level 11 +/- ... depends.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-08-10 at 02:16 PM.
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    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    Tabaxi Gloom Stalker Ranger 3, Scout Rogue X(with MAYBE going to Ranger 5)

    Archery Fighting style, Sharpshooter feat for sure, Crossbow Expert if you want to stop at Ranger 3, or you could skip it if you want to get Ranger 5.


    I've played a Tabaxi Swashbuckler and it was a great fun character. All melee though.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    I have a deep seated aversion to Tabaxi Rogues due to multiple bad experiences with PC's who turn on the party or run away with no concern for the rest of the party members. So don't do that or you will only fuel my prejudice. But that's about me - you asked about you.


    Mechanically, Tabaxi make fine Rogues. XBE and SS are always good choices for ranged rogues. Arcane Trickster w/ Find Familiar is a nice way to spam the help action to ensure SA. I haven't found Scout to be as useful as AT (the prof is nice but the movement isn't as relevant as I'd hoped IME).

    I prefer my rogues w/ multi-attack so I like to MC, but XBE helps there but also creates BA competition.

    If your Pali plans to be a good face then great, but if not I'd bump CHA and look at expertise in persuasion/deception.
    I understand your concerns. I, as much as I possibly can, try to be a plus to both the party and my group of players. We've been playing for years and there was this one guy who was a total jerk because "hey, this is how my character behaves". He engaged in several manners of toxic behaviour and is long gone from our group.

    But then again, J'Zargo might not be willing to lay down his life for his companions as readily as your next cleric or paladin. And certainly not for some other character's greed or selfishness


    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    So long as it was an eldritch blast ...
    Nearly identical to the motivation for my Gloom Stalker Ranger ToA. I like it, but I am biased, eh?

    Have you tried Gloom Stalker Ranger? Have you thought through that one? It's a good kit.

    Looks good to me.
    I'd go SS. Suggest against a dip if you want feats and ASI. The campaign will likely end at level 11 +/- ... depends.
    I had seen the Gloom Stalker, and I think it's an awesome concept. In fact, it was my first option, but it got discarded because:
    1) it encourages the "lone scout" playstyle even further, which might not be as fun to play as a group
    2) the rest of the original ranger still feels so situational and poor that I don't see it compensating for the GS perks
    3) I believe GS shines in the absolute darkness...and I tell you, there are going to be players with lights or torches, because you know, variant hoomans

    As for the dip...I'm willing to dip one level for flavor and utility in exchange of the possibility to maybe hit level 12 and gain a third ASI. As I said, fighter sounds cool for added options, and wizard looks cool as it compensates for not picking Arcane Trickster. Playing an evasive rogue is cool and everything, but AC14 is terrible and he'd like to stay alive as long as he can
    Last edited by sirteyo; 2020-08-11 at 05:47 AM.
    “Isn’t it splendid to think of all the things there are to find out about? It just makes me feel glad to be alive–it’s such an interesting world. It wouldn’t be half so interesting if we know all about everything, would it? There’d be no scope for imagination then, would there?”

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    Hi! Have fun with ToA ... it can be really good ... I had a great time playing it :)

    I played a variant human Arcane Trickster/Fey Warlock through ToA and really enjoyed it. The Fey warlock was mostly for backstory reasons but it worked well for me.

    Rogues work best when they can attack with advantage which both makes them hit more often and will activate sneak attack. I tried to have as many ways to generate advantage on a ranged attack as possible because circumstances would often prevent one approach or another from working.

    I had the following available as an AT with 3 levels of warlock.
    - bonus action hide via cunning action (if there is cover available)
    - help action from familiar (via find familiar spell from AT)
    - faerie fire - fey warlock spell - and helps the party too
    - darkness spell + devils sight (darkness is also good at blocking gaze attacks) - this one also gives attackers
    - I could have also used the shadowblade spell if forced into melee in dim light or darkness
    disadvantage to hit you which is useful since a rogue AC is not very good.

    In addition, I went with the blade pact and had devils sight and improved pact weapon as invocations.

    Spoiler: Spoiler 1
    Show
    Unless your DM changes the module, magical weapons are very scarce in ToA and magical ranged weapons are not-existent. I was still using my +1 long bow pact weapon at the end of the adventure about level 12.


    Spoiler: Spoiler 2
    Show
    Without giving anything away ... with a module called Tomb of Annihilation ... there are likely to be hidden things that it is better to see first. Expertise in perception and investigation may be useful ... though this depends somewhat on how your DM chooses to run things. Also, some parts of the game may involve darkness so the ability to see perfectly 120' in the dark without incurring disadvantage on your perception checks can be circumstantially useful - this is where devils sight comes in though if your party is always wandering around with light sources then your perception should be ok even if the range is greatly reduced.


    Spoiler: Spoiler 3
    Show
    One benefit of the scout is expertise in survival which may come in handy when trying to navigate the jungle. However, there is no water or food in the jungle that can be safely consumed without at least a purify type spell being cast. You won't be living off the land depending on how the DM chooses to run it even if a character has a background feature enabling it to find forage while traveling. There is no forage safe to consume in the jungle.


    I finished ToA as a 9 Arcane Trickster/ 3 Fey Warlock. The character is now a 12 arcane trickster/ 5 fey warlock.

    -----

    A couple more comments ...

    As a tabaxi rogue you will only have 2 or 3 ASIs/feats through the typical 11-12 levels of play (could be less depending on the DM since some decide to run everything at a lower level). If you decide to go crossbow expert/sharpshooter then you won't be boosting your dex which is a trade off. Also, I find XBE/SS works much better on a class with extra attack.

    For example, a variant human gloomstalker ranger 5 / X rogue works extremely well with SS/XBE while a straight rogue is less so because the trade off is almost never worth it for a rogue unless they have already succeeded with a sneak attack on their turn. XBE also conflicts with the cunning action use of your bonus action. I usually found it better to use the bonus action to ensure advantage on my attack when needed to so that I didn't need the extra bonus action attack. Finally, the ranger gets the Archery fighting style where the +2 to hit partially compensates for the -5 to hit from sharpshooter - a rogue doesn't have that benefit.

    All that said, the extra expertise skills of the rogue might come in handy in ToA. However, the extra mobility of the scout is somewhat less important for a Tabaxi which is already one of the most mobile character options.

    ---

    No matter what you choose to play, it should be lots of fun! :)
    Last edited by Keravath; 2020-08-10 at 03:42 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    I played a Scout in a low level game that ended up fizzling out, but I got a bit of a sense of the class. I was playing with a crossbow, but there's no reason you can't use a shortbow.

    It felt extremely effective at navigating the wilderness. I took Outlander as a background and reflavored it as "Highwayman" to reflect this is a criminal who lives in the wild primarily and prowls trade routes. This was a sandbox campaign on a hex map, so having the ability to automatically forage with the Scout's massive skill bonuses, the whole package was very handy. I can imagine it will work well for ToA too, although I have not played it.

    One of the first things the Scout gets is the ability to get out of melee when someone closes with you, so that suits your concept well and mechanically supports archery as a choice. I was running all over the outskirts of the battlefield hiding in trees and sniping; my biggest defense was being Hidden when enemy turns rolled around. Your AC won't matter so much if you aren't being targeted in the first place. While I was effective in combat, it felt a little repetitive just running around and sniping. The interesting parts of the character came out of combat.

    So you're going to get Nature, Survival, Perception, and Stealth for free, with auto-expertise in the first two. Then you get 6 more skills to choose from class and background. So I'd say there's no reason not to take every Dex skill and every Wisdom skill - maybe not Medicine. Then you can grab 1 or 2 from Intelligence or Charisma. I'd go with Deception and Persuasion, as you get a +1 to Charisma and they're always going to be useful eventually. Maybe a History proficiency with an emphasis in appraising valuable relics. I'd recommend making Wisdom your tertiary stat and throw expertise into Perception - again I haven't played this campaign, but I assume it will include a fair number of traps. No one ever regretted having a very high Perception score.
    Last edited by Evaar; 2020-08-10 at 05:04 PM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    We have a Tabaxi Rogue in our party doing ToA, and they are very, very useful. He was an NPC that we created after we lost a player, that was then picked up as a PC by a new player. He finds himself very useful, and the Tabaxi traits come in handy.

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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    Quote Originally Posted by sirteyo View Post
    As for the dip...I'm willing to dip one level for flavor and utility in exchange of the possibility to maybe hit level 12 and gain a third ASI. As I said, fighter sounds cool for added options, and wizard looks cool as it compensates for not picking Arcane Trickster. Playing an evasive rogue is cool and everything, but AC14 is terrible and he'd like to stay alive as long as he can
    It's ok to give up the ASI if you're excited about taking a dip or multiclass, but if that's the case, I would also rework your starting stats. A feat like SS/XBE is more powerful than +1 ability score, so I'd take the feat as soon as you can. With that in mind, I don't think it makes sense to pay extra points for the 15, 15.

    I also don't love the penalty to Str when you're looking to play around with Athletics, and based on your character description, I think you could drop Int (it plays up the rough and uneducated side of your character, and since Investigate is used much less than Perception in this edition, it's no mechanical loss).

    I'd go Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 13

    If you really want, drop one of the 12/13s to 10, pump Dex to 15, and grab the Athletic or Stealthy feat later on.

    Key skills to expertise: Athletics, Perception, Stealth, and a Charisma skill of your choice

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    Quote Originally Posted by CTurbo View Post
    Tabaxi Gloom Stalker Ranger 3, Scout Rogue X(with MAYBE going to Ranger 5)

    Archery Fighting style, Sharpshooter feat for sure, Crossbow Expert if you want to stop at Ranger 3, or you could skip it if you want to get Ranger 5.


    I've played a Tabaxi Swashbuckler and it was a great fun character. All melee though.
    Tabaxi Swashbuckler does sound awesome! I want to go for the ranged flavour though.

    The thing is, the ranger stopped being appealing to me after I fully read the class and was impressed at how poorly his core skills work. I'd surely give it a go with the Revised Ranger, but DM won't allow it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    Hi! Have fun with ToA ... it can be really good ... I had a great time playing it :)

    I played a variant human Arcane Trickster/Fey Warlock through ToA and really enjoyed it. The Fey warlock was mostly for backstory reasons but it worked well for me.

    As a tabaxi rogue you will only have 2 or 3 ASIs/feats through the typical 11-12 levels of play (could be less depending on the DM since some decide to run everything at a lower level). If you decide to go crossbow expert/sharpshooter then you won't be boosting your dex which is a trade off. Also, I find XBE/SS works much better on a class with extra attack.

    All that said, the extra expertise skills of the rogue might come in handy in ToA. However, the extra mobility of the scout is somewhat less important for a Tabaxi which is already one of the most mobile character options.
    1) AT/Warlock sure sounds more fun, but then the character would lose the wilderness touch to it. It isn't required though, and we already have a druid, so it might be an option. Having several ways of ensuring SA seems like the real benefit from this build.
    The problem with your build is that core stats would be DEX CON INT and CHA, and that's a lot of stats to cover with a standard point buy, isn't it? How did you manage?

    2) So you're saying that ensuring SA beats having an extra attack from XBE? I also believe Cunning Action is a more effective use, as I will be trying to hide as often as possible.

    3) You're right about the mobility. I'd mainly take Scout Rogue for the skills boosts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evaar View Post
    I played a Scout in a low level game that ended up fizzling out, but I got a bit of a sense of the class. I was playing with a crossbow, but there's no reason you can't use a shortbow.

    It felt extremely effective at navigating the wilderness. I took Outlander as a background and reflavored it as "Highwayman" to reflect this is a criminal who lives in the wild primarily and prowls trade routes. This was a sandbox campaign on a hex map, so having the ability to automatically forage with the Scout's massive skill bonuses, the whole package was very handy. I can imagine it will work well for ToA too, although I have not played it.
    Glad to hear it! Rogue scout remains my number 1 option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
    We have a Tabaxi Rogue in our party doing ToA, and they are very, very useful. He was an NPC that we created after we lost a player, that was then picked up as a PC by a new player. He finds himself very useful, and the Tabaxi traits come in handy.
    That sounds great! I want to roleplay J'Zargo like that, and I also want him to be effective and useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kemev View Post
    It's ok to give up the ASI if you're excited about taking a dip or multiclass, but if that's the case, I would also rework your starting stats. A feat like SS/XBE is more powerful than +1 ability score, so I'd take the feat as soon as you can. With that in mind, I don't think it makes sense to pay extra points for the 15, 15.

    I also don't love the penalty to Str when you're looking to play around with Athletics, and based on your character description, I think you could drop Int (it plays up the rough and uneducated side of your character, and since Investigate is used much less than Perception in this edition, it's no mechanical loss).

    I'd go Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 13

    If you really want, drop one of the 12/13s to 10, pump Dex to 15, and grab the Athletic or Stealthy feat later on.

    Key skills to expertise: Athletics, Perception, Stealth, and a Charisma skill of your choice
    This is really sound advice, and would indeed make the most out of the Tabaxi stats. Having 14 (+2) CHA would also open the door to a Rogue Scout X + Warlock 1 for some flavor and utility cantrips, or Warlock 2 for at will Mage Armor/Speak with animals/Silent image.
    “Isn’t it splendid to think of all the things there are to find out about? It just makes me feel glad to be alive–it’s such an interesting world. It wouldn’t be half so interesting if we know all about everything, would it? There’d be no scope for imagination then, would there?”

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    I am going to disagree with Kemev on the stat array, and go Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 13 by switching his Str and Int stats. Expertise in Athletics (plus natural climbing speed) will more than make up for a -1 in Str. This would also allow you to make use of skills like Nature, which while they don't come up all that frequently, can be useful in the first half of the module (without getting into spoilers), and unless our DM was doing something wrong, Investigation checks came up a LOT in the second half.

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    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    I still say 3 levels of Gloom Stalker(or even Hunter) adds a lot even using the core Ranger that everyone hates.

    You could consider going Draconic Sorcerer 1/Scout Rogue X and have a better than light armor AC of 13+ Dex, 2 first level spells, and 4 great cantrips.

    I'd take Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, and Booming Blade for sure to make sure when you NEED to hit in melee, you'll hit really hard. For the 4th cantrip I'd probably take something like Control Flames or Prestidigitation. For 1st level spells you can't go wrong with Absorb Elements and Shield.

    Stats could be 8 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 14 Wis, and 13 Cha

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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    Quote Originally Posted by sirteyo View Post

    1) AT/Warlock sure sounds more fun, but then the character would lose the wilderness touch to it. It isn't required though, and we already have a druid, so it might be an option. Having several ways of ensuring SA seems like the real benefit from this build.
    The problem with your build is that core stats would be DEX CON INT and CHA, and that's a lot of stats to cover with a standard point buy, isn't it? How did you manage?

    2) So you're saying that ensuring SA beats having an extra attack from XBE? I also believe Cunning Action is a more effective use, as I will be trying to hide as often as possible.

    3) You're right about the mobility. I'd mainly take Scout Rogue for the skills boosts.
    In my case, I went with variant human and started with ..
    8 16 12 14 12 14
    .. using point buy and starting with the Observant feat at level 1.

    I had to drop con to 12 to get the other stats I needed ... not ideal but as a ranged attacker it wasn't such a big deal and I later found an Amulet of Health that boosts my hit points substantially. (This is an Adventurers League character so using point buy is required).

    The distribution gave me a + to most skills from stats.

    I took expertise in perception, investigation, stealth and thieves tools.

    I found that most of the time my bonus action was used for something useful ... hide, disengage, dash ... the long bow gave me a better range and better base damage ... and using the bonus action to try to ensure advantage on my attack roll (and thus enable sneak attack even against targets where I did not have an ally adjacent) was usually a better use of the bonus action rather than gaining one additional attack with a hand crossbow where my best option for sneak attack would usually be firing at at target with an opponent adjacent to them.

    P.S. At level 17 my passive perception is 28 and passive investigation is 29 :) ... I had two main goals with the character ... optimize landing sneak attack so it would be available almost every turn AND hit with it ... and optimize the rogue skills related to finding, figuring out and defeating traps and similar hazards. It was fun, and if there were indications of a trap that could be detected, I would usually find it.

    P.P.S. If you ever get a chance to find Nolzur's Marvelous Pigments ... they are a creative rogues BEST friend :)

    ----

    I like the scout idea too ... it is likely to be quite helpful when trying to find your way through the trackless jungles. Other abilities like foraging are very DM dependent since some of the environmental hazards may effectively negate some of those abilities.

    Also, nothing is likely to do better with giving the feel of an intrepid jungle explorer than the scout rogue. Expertise in survival and nature might let you identify jungle threats and be more at home in the jungle .. both of which are good things. I think you'd do fine with a scout rogue ... so in the end just pick what you want to play :)
    Last edited by Keravath; 2020-08-11 at 10:36 AM.

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    Quote Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
    I am going to disagree with Kemev on the stat array, and go Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 13 by switching his Str and Int stats. Expertise in Athletics (plus natural climbing speed) will more than make up for a -1 in Str. This would also allow you to make use of skills like Nature, which while they don't come up all that frequently, can be useful in the first half of the module (without getting into spoilers), and unless our DM was doing something wrong, Investigation checks came up a LOT in the second half.
    Yeah, swapping Str and Int is totally reasonable; I just think the Str penalty is frustrating at low levels. Plus you could make the same expertise argument with the Nature skill (Scouts get pseudo-expertise to Nature and Survival), which makes up for the -1 Int.

    There's a fun cat roleplaying case to be made for taking the Str penalty; tell everyone that you're good a climbing, but hate swimming. And then tell everyone that you're great at jumping, but randomly miss and crash into things.

    ...

    CTurbo's sorcerer dip sounds really good. I'd have a tough time choosing between that or Warlock.

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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    Hi everyone! I wanted to say thank you for the great advice, it sure feels good to share a passion with such awesome fellow players :)

    After all I've read, I think I'm going to go with a Rogue Scout with a single level dip in either:

    a) Draconic Sorc for 4 great cantrips, a very limited selection of spells and uses (Silent Image & Feather Fall?) and permanent 13 AC natural armor.
    10 16 14 8 10 16

    b) War Cleric for 2 extra attacks per long rest to ensure SA in a dire situation, 3 cantrips and 2 life-saving spells such as Purify Food & Drink and Shield of Faith
    10 16 14 8 14 13

    Not much to gain from a single Warlock dip, really, as I believe it's more focused on melee. Either way, the progression with such a spread will be ASI1: Sharpshooter and ASI2: +2 DEX. Any suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by CTurbo View Post
    I still say 3 levels of Gloom Stalker(or even Hunter) adds a lot even using the core Ranger that everyone hates.
    How would this work, stats, feats and gameplay wise? First level in Rogue or Ranger? I'm intrigued!
    Last edited by sirteyo; 2020-08-12 at 05:41 AM.
    “Isn’t it splendid to think of all the things there are to find out about? It just makes me feel glad to be alive–it’s such an interesting world. It wouldn’t be half so interesting if we know all about everything, would it? There’d be no scope for imagination then, would there?”

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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    Quote Originally Posted by sirteyo View Post
    Hi everyone! I wanted to say thank you for the great advice, it sure feels good to share a passion with such awesome fellow players :)

    After all I've read, I think I'm going to go with a Rogue Scout with a single level dip in either:

    a) Draconic Sorc for 4 great cantrips, a very limited selection of spells and uses (Silent Image & Feather Fall?) and permanent 13 AC natural armor.
    10 16 14 8 10 16

    b) War Cleric for 2 extra attacks per long rest to ensure SA in a dire situation, 3 cantrips and 2 life-saving spells such as Purify Food & Drink and Shield of Faith
    10 16 14 8 14 13

    Not much to gain from a single Warlock dip, really, as I believe it's more focused on melee. Either way, the progression with such a spread will be ASI1: Sharpshooter and ASI2: +2 DEX. Any suggestions?


    How would this work, stats, feats and gameplay wise? First level in Rogue or Ranger? I'm intrigued!
    The only comment I might have is that Sharpshooter is a bit of a trap for a rogue unless you are taking it to avoid the cover penalties and enhanced range.

    The -5 to hit and +10 to damage trade off is almost never worthwhile if you are trying to land sneak attack. The required to hit die roll where the trade off becomes worthwhile is higher the more base damage the attack you are making can do since if you miss you do no damage at all. (at 5th level a sneak attack short bow does 4d6+dex damage which is a lot to lose with the -5 to hit for only an extra +10 on one attack roll).

    In addition, the base rogue doesn't have the archery fighting style giving +2 to hit and partially mitigating the -5 penalty.

    If you want a sharpshooter build then you would probably be better off with something like the Gloomstalker 5 (for extra attack) plus rogue X. If you only have one attack and want to land your sneak attack, Sharpshooter is almost useless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sirteyo View Post

    How would this work, stats, feats and gameplay wise? First level in Rogue or Ranger? I'm intrigued!
    I don't have a lot of time to explain right now, but will try to later if nobody else has by then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    The only comment I might have is that Sharpshooter is a bit of a trap for a rogue unless you are taking it to avoid the cover penalties and enhanced range.

    The -5 to hit and +10 to damage trade off is almost never worthwhile if you are trying to land sneak attack. The required to hit die roll where the trade off becomes worthwhile is higher the more base damage the attack you are making can do since if you miss you do no damage at all. (at 5th level a sneak attack short bow does 4d6+dex damage which is a lot to lose with the -5 to hit for only an extra +10 on one attack roll).

    In addition, the base rogue doesn't have the archery fighting style giving +2 to hit and partially mitigating the -5 penalty.

    If you want a sharpshooter build then you would probably be better off with something like the Gloomstalker 5 (for extra attack) plus rogue X. If you only have one attack and want to land your sneak attack, Sharpshooter is almost useless.
    I do believe that Crossbow Expert is far better suited for a Rogue than Sharpshooter since it basically doubles your chances to land your SA, but Sharpshooter is still decent even if you never use the -5/+10. The other 2 features are still nice for a sneaky Rogue that wants to avoid melee. This works better when combined with 5 levels Ranger/Fighter for second attack. If you hit with your first attack and use SA, then on the second attack you can try for the -5/+10. Obviously you'd have the +2 from Archery style in that scenario.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    The only comment I might have is that Sharpshooter is a bit of a trap for a rogue unless you are taking it to avoid the cover penalties and enhanced range.
    Quote Originally Posted by CTurbo View Post
    I do believe that Crossbow Expert is far better suited for a Rogue than Sharpshooter since it basically doubles your chances to land your SA, but Sharpshooter is still decent even if you never use the -5/+10. The other 2 features are still nice for a sneaky Rogue that wants to avoid melee. This works better when combined with 5 levels Ranger/Fighter for second attack. If you hit with your first attack and use SA, then on the second attack you can try for the -5/+10. Obviously you'd have the +2 from Archery style in that scenario.
    I think you guys are right. I'm going to take XBE at level 4, and might take SS at level 8/9/10 (depending on dipping one or two levels in War Cleric/Dragon Sorc/Fighter). In the meantime, I'll try to persuade the wizard to lend me the help of his owl familiar to ensure SAs as consistently as possible.

    SS with a longbow sure appeals more to me, but then again that might be for the Ranger I'm opting out of playing, and that's okay.

    Thank you all for the great advice! I'll post him when the char is done
    “Isn’t it splendid to think of all the things there are to find out about? It just makes me feel glad to be alive–it’s such an interesting world. It wouldn’t be half so interesting if we know all about everything, would it? There’d be no scope for imagination then, would there?”

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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    The gloomstalker Ranger has done amazingly well for the party in the ToA game I’m running. Making “jungle” your favored terrain will make you an MVP during a huge chunk of the game.

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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    We had a Tabaxi rogue in our ToA campaign. They can be highly effective.

    Spoiler
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    Late game, range won't be as much of a benefit, it is a dungeon crawl.
    It is an homage to Tomb of Horrors, I would put Dungeon Delver higher than Sharp Shooter.


    Scout is definitely a strong choice for ToA. You will want some way to get your hands on a magic weapon...

    -pr4wn

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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    Hi everyone!

    J'Zargo just hit level 2 in ToA and I'm having a blast. This one sure enjoys playing a cunning, smooth-tongued Khajiit, yes

    We've had 3 battles so far and 2 of them have been close calls...we better stay focused and smart!
    Third level will definitely be Draconic Sorcerer for some AC and 4 cantrips (Booming Blade, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, True Strike/Mending/Shape Water):

    I've been thinking about the whole XBE and SS thing, and what do you guys think about just dual-wielding daggers? Damage die is really small, but they can be thrown up to 20ft, 60 with SS.

    Entering a combat with 2 daggers would grant these options:
    Case 1) Throw one. Hit? Nice! Draw another and stay back --- Start next turn dual-wielding again.
    Case 2) Throw one. Miss? Throw off-hand, draw another and stay back --- Start next turn with one dagger. Draw another or use Booming Blade if in melee.

    Basically, it sacrifices range in favor of more versatility and no weapon switching.

    Level 5 (first ASI), take SS. Thrown dagger range is increased to 60ft, which is great.

    Second ASI can go to either Dual-Wielder for +1 AC and drawing 2 daggers at once or just +2 DEX. Maybe even Dungeon Delver.

    It's weird that I haven't thought of this dagger build before, maybe because ranged = bows and xbows is the standard.

    What do you guys think?
    Last edited by sirteyo; 2020-09-10 at 12:37 PM.
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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    Too late... I wanna say: don't take ranged class. For time in jungle it will be great. But when you will go down to the tomb, ranged and tactical battles will by not so often.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delph View Post
    Too late... I wanna say: don't take ranged class. For time in jungle it will be great. But when you will go down to the tomb, ranged and tactical battles will by not so often.
    Well, AFAIK the jungle part is the first half of the game, which is huge. Will it really be that bad later on? I'd like to think that my rogue won't perform as well in combat as the Swashbuckler, or any martial class, but he will be useful with enough clever thinking and a strong party to rely on.

    What would you change?
    “Isn’t it splendid to think of all the things there are to find out about? It just makes me feel glad to be alive–it’s such an interesting world. It wouldn’t be half so interesting if we know all about everything, would it? There’d be no scope for imagination then, would there?”

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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    I've gone through ToA, and I would suggest not going with the dagger strategy. It works for now, but it will fall short in the Tomb itself. Its less of an issue about being as effective in combat, and more along the lines that there are some truely terrifying things in that tomb and the city outside of the tomb. I won't give you spoilers, but to put it this way, my own party would have a player death whenever I missed a session. Its not like we were a weak party, we were pretty strong. The dungeon is just deadlier.
    Last edited by sithlordnergal; 2020-09-11 at 03:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sirteyo View Post
    Hi everyone, TL;DR at the bottom!

    I'm just about to finish a year-long CoS campaign in which I've played a tiefling Lore Bard 8/Warlock 2 based on Kvothe from the Name of the Wind and I've had an absolute blast. After this, another DM in my group is going to run a possibly year-long ToA campaign and has already warned us that things can and will get tough. So, while I value role-playing over minmaxing, I'm going to need a moderately-optimized character to play with.

    The Party
    The rest of the members of the group are a paladin (vengeance most likely), a lizardfolk moon druid (nature/tanky/utility) and a wizard (don't know much).

    The Setting
    I only know that there's a lot of jungle with survival elements and that there's something going on with the Undead. We've got Angry Paladin for the latter, and I hope a Moon Druid and a Rogue Scout will suffice for the former. Apart from that, I don't nor I want to know much more about it —please keep this spoiler-free!

    The Idea
    I've been thinking about playing a Tabaxi for quite a while now (because "Khajiit stole nothing" and purring shenanigans) and I figured rogue scout would make for a cool and useful class on this setting —although I believe Arcane Trickster would make for a more fun and flavourful archetype.

    The Background
    J'Zargo and his twin brother S'Lazar leave their village, in the distant lands of Elsweyr, to honor the Rite of Passage, a coming-of-age tradition in which all Tabaxi from a strong bloodline must leave the village, travel the world, and come back eventually with something worthy for the clan —be it a great feat, a rare magic item, the favor of a powerful ally in a distant kingdom, a newly established trading route or notably valuable information for the Tabaxi's Great Encyclopedia.

    While J'Zargo absolutely admires and adores his wise, charismatic, good-hearted brother, he himself sees life under a dimmer, sadder light. Was it the raid on the village, was it the death of his childhood love, was it the ever-growing shadow his brother always casted over him? J'Zargo did not know, and he could not be bothered.

    After several months of travel amassing gold, trinkets, contacts and stories, the brothers fall prey to bandits while resting at a seemingly abandoned campsite (or to an elaborate scheme by a recently made enemy?). After a gruesome battle where S'Lazar is slain, the bandits retreat in disarray and J'Zargo manages to reach a big city with a fraction of his fortune and his dead brother on his back. Surely, all this coin will be enough to pay for the services of a priest, yes?
    Spoiler: ToA spoiler
    Show
    ...but it would seem there's some magic to prevent resurrections, or something along the lines. Thus, making J'Zargo embark on a journey to find a way to save his brother


    The Dilemma
    Why not ranger, you may ask? Because our DM only allows official content, so no UA and thus, no revised ranger. That's why I had in mind some kind of rogue, rogue-fighter character with some knowledge about the wilderness. I want a character that is good at combat but has uses outside of it as well, especially with survival skills. Also, I've been wanting to play a morally grey character for some time now and I believe rogue-fighter fits the idea.
    Also, recently played a dwarf life cleric up to level 5 and while I had fun role-playing, I wasn't amused by the class, so no nature cleric for me.

    The Proposal <- TL;DR!
    A very mobile sniper that can get to high places by climbing, then sneak attacks, runs off to another cover, and hides again. I'd really like to go for the archery flavour, but ideally he will hold its own a bit on melee, despite the abysmal AC. He will try to consistently SA, while trying to stay away from the fray as much as possible.

    J'Zargo is a bit of a coward, and this shows in his combat style. He lacks the sheer courage, brightness and straightforwardness of his brother, and tries to make it up with schemes, ambushes and tricks.

    Stats using standard point-buy:
    STR 8: is not really needed for anything
    DEX 17 = 15 (+2 tabaxi): because rogue
    CON 15: because survivability
    INT 10: average
    WIS 12: for perception, nature and survival skills
    CHA 12 = 11 (+1 tabaxi): for some deception

    Ideas:
    • First ASI goes to +1 DEX +1 CON for 18 and 16, second goes to Skulker or Sharpshooter.
    • Might want to go 8 17 15 14 10 9 to dip a wizard level (cantrips, mage armor, find familiar + help), or maybe go AC instead of Scout
    • Dip into fighter for Archery and Second-wind?
    • Dip into any other class?
    • Any other way of making SA as much as possible?

    I know it's a lenghty post, but if you made it here and have something to say, please do not hesitate to do so!
    Monster hunter ranger does quite good in ToA for reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sithlordnergal View Post
    I've gone through ToA, and I would suggest not going with the dagger strategy. It works for now, but it will fall short in the Tomb itself. Its less of an issue about being as effective in combat, and more along the lines that there are some truely terrifying things in that tomb and the city outside of the tomb. I won't give you spoilers, but to put it this way, my own party would have a player death whenever I missed a session. Its not like we were a weak party, we were pretty strong. The dungeon is just deadlier.
    Well, now that's scary

    I don't really get what you mean, though. Do you mean that my rogue will need magic weapons (so no regular daggers) to even make a dent in some monsters, or do you mean that it would be best to keep as much distance as possible (so daggers with SS at 60ft is still "not far enough")? The Wizard can hold his own in ranged due to spells, but that's definitely not the case with the Fighter and Moon Druid tanks.

    In any case, thank you for keeping it spoiler-free, it means a lot!

    Quote Originally Posted by AttilatheYeon View Post
    Monster hunter ranger does quite good in ToA for reasons.
    It's a bit too late. Maybe for another character is J'Zargo falls in battle, though!
    Last edited by sirteyo; 2020-09-11 at 04:43 AM.
    “Isn’t it splendid to think of all the things there are to find out about? It just makes me feel glad to be alive–it’s such an interesting world. It wouldn’t be half so interesting if we know all about everything, would it? There’d be no scope for imagination then, would there?”

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    Default Re: Advice on Tabaxi Rogue for ToA

    You're gonna want magical weapons, there are things in there that are resistant and immune to non-magical weapon damage. Also, being able to stay as far back as possible isn't going to be feasible. There are several traps where you're locked in a small-ish room fighting things
    Last edited by sithlordnergal; 2020-09-11 at 12:48 PM.

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