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2020-08-10, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2020
Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
just wondering what the best rogue build would be without levels in rogue. Lore bard? Knowledge Cleric?
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2020-08-10, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2016
- Gender
Re: Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
That depends on what you see the rogue's role as: dungeoneer? Skill monkey? Face? Party gambling addict?
Depending how you play them, I'd submit any class can be "roguish."
From your suggestions, I suspect you're leaning toward skill monkey, in which case I would suggest a half-elf Swords bard or Hunter ranger.
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2020-08-10, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2019
Re: Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
Goblin Dex based Fighter with 3 levels of Lore Bard. Most of Cunning Action, Expertise, Jack of All Trades and the ability to slap some burst damage down with Fury of the Small.
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2020-08-10, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2018
Re: Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
Lore bard and knowledge cleric are both good skill monkey candidates.
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2020-08-10, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
Goblin Shadow Monk?
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2020-08-10, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2020
Re: Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
When I think rogue I think scout. We had a Shadow Monk perform this role well in one campaign.
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2020-08-10, 06:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2018
- Location
- Between SEA and PDX.
- Gender
Re: Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
That's a pretty valid point. A Rogue really only does 4 things:
- Provide noncombat utility
- Have mobility in combat
- Be good at Stealth
- Deal decent ranged single-target damage
That's about it, and most Rogues I've seen usually only specialize in two of those at a time. So if you can do 3, congratulations, you're a Rogue.Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2020-08-10 at 06:29 PM.
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2020-08-10, 06:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2016
Re: Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
Whisper Bard?
Good skill monkey and face, expertise, and they even get a sneak attack proxy!
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2020-08-10, 06:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- England
- Gender
Re: Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
Weirdly enough, I consider Barbarian to be one of the more Roguish classes; bonus damage to attacks, likes crits, typically athletic, lightly armoured (if at all!), good at using terrain to their advantage, often has multiple uses for bonus actions, resilient to direct damage through damage mitigation, usually plays the "thorn in the enemies side" role...I mean, when you put a standard-ish Strength based Rogue next to a typical Strength based Barbarian, they look really very similar in what they can achieve and what they do.
I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.
Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.
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2020-08-10, 06:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2013
- Location
- Somewhere
- Gender
Re: Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
Expert sidekick. No sneak attack, but extra attack, Jack of All Trades, more skills and better Help action. Well, it is modified rogue, after all....
It's Eberron, not ebberon.
It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.
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2020-08-10, 07:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2015
- Location
- Maine
- Gender
Re: Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
Artificer has this in spades
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2020-08-10, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2011
- Location
- Lakeland, FL
- Gender
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2020-08-10, 10:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
- Seoul
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2020-08-10, 10:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2020
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2020-08-11, 01:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
- Location
- Finland
- Gender
Re: Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
Lore Bard is basically just a Rogue with a larger number of skill proficiencies, inherent skill buffs and 9th level spells. So there's that.
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2020-08-11, 02:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
Re: Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
Gloomstalker Ranger, decent skills, really good stealth, and their spell casting more than makes up for sneak attack.
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2020-08-11, 02:36 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2013
Re: Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
Just literally anyone with the Criminal background.
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2020-08-11, 03:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- England
- Gender
Re: Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.
Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.
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2020-08-11, 04:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2019
- Location
- Somewhere over th rainbow
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2020-08-11, 07:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
Re: Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
An IMP Familiar can fill in for a rogue quite well.
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2020-08-11, 07:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2017
- Gender
Re: Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
Goblin Ranger with a Criminal/Urchin Background.
Bonus actions, thieves tools, stealth, extra damage from spells and bonus.Pronouns he/him/his
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2020-08-11, 07:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
- Location
- Tulips Cheese & Rock&Roll
- Gender
Re: Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
A gloom stalker ranger multiclassing into lore bard seems a reasonable approximation. The build quite possibly works best if you lean more into the bard magic, never going past level 5 (extra attack) in ranger, but stays more roguelike if instead you only take 3 levels in bard (expertise for 2 skills plus 3 new skills) and go ranger for the rest. Take the urchin or criminal background so you get a thieves tools proficiency. You get darkvision from gloom stalker, so any race that gives a bonus to dex (and maybe either con, wis or cha, this build is pretty multiple secondary attribute dependent) is fair game. Sneaking around does not give sneak attack damage, but it does still give you advantage. Specialize in anything but two weapon fighting to get the most out of that.
Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2020-08-11 at 07:35 AM.
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2020-08-11, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2017
Re: Best rogue equivalent without rogue levels?
Artificer can actually Rogue pretty well. You have build in expertise with tools, including thieves tools, at level 6, and you can make a nasty hit and run character using a few infusions, and archer artificers are excellent given that they can use a shield and hand crossbow at the same time. Their spells and infusions neatly supplement the typical rogue skill bonuses too.
All you strictly need to have to fulfill the rogues role is decent perception, investigation, and thieves tools checks, and an artificer can get all of those to acceptable ranges easily. You'll eventually be outstripped unless you invest infusions into magic items, and you work best while supplementing a Rogue, but you can take over if needed.
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2020-08-11, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2019
- Location
- Lower Menthis