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2020-08-10, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2015
Question? Why the heck wouldn't...
Rogues have the two weapon fighting style limited to daggers, and the swashbuckler improves on this by including light and/or finesse weapons?
Reference Grey Mouser for rogue, Errol Flynn for swashbuckler.
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2020-08-10, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2016
Re: Question? Why the heck wouldn't...
Because that's extremely limiting? Because TWFing ALREADY isn't very good? Because it's already dumb that you can't TWF with two different weapons (eg. sword and dagger) in 5e, so limiting things even further is kind of asinine? Because it does absolutely nothing to improve the game, and is instead detrimental?
A better question: why the heck WOULD a developer do this?Last edited by Rynjin; 2020-08-10 at 06:14 PM.
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2020-08-10, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2016
- Location
- The Old West
Re: Question? Why the heck wouldn't...
Well for one a highly specific exception just for the two weapon fighting style would be out of place. For two, rogues don't get any other fighting styles. So having a feature that is "you get this level one feature but worse in every way" isn't much of a boost. And finally, the rogue doesn't need it on a practical level, they do fine without it (including if they do TWF). See the monk roleplaying thread for reasons the class doesn't need to perfectly recreate certain fictional characters if you're curious about that aspect.
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2020-08-10, 06:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2016
Re: Question? Why the heck wouldn't...
It's worth saying it would be a pretty inconsequential DPR increase in the grand scheme of things. The reason rogues potentially like two weapon fighting is so that they can fish for a second chance at landing sneak attack, not for the actual damage on that attack mostly.
Them not having it isn't a huge deal. Them having it would be a buff but a reasonably minor one.
I wouldn't bother putting caveats on it if you're going to homebrew. Just give them the two weapon fighting style and leave it at that.
Edit -
With a feat you can duel wield with a long sword and dagger (though why you would as a rogue is another question). Without a feat you can dual wield with a short sword and dagger if you so chose. There's no requirement for it to be the same type of weapon if that's what you were implying.Last edited by Contrast; 2020-08-10 at 06:29 PM.
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2020-08-10, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2015
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2020-08-10, 06:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2016
Re: Question? Why the heck wouldn't...
How many Rogues other than Swashbucklers would really have much use for this, as limited as it is? Rogues already have a ton of things to do with their bonus actions already. So unless you really need the +5 damage max, I just don’t get the need.
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2020-08-10, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2015
Re: Question? Why the heck wouldn't...
You are right, it is most useful for swashbucklers. You are also right, they do have a lot of things to do with their bonus action. But the swashbuckler mostly loses the usefulness of one of those options (disengage). I'm giving them a useful replacement for it.
I'm thinking you get this. I'm trying to support a common fantasy concept of the rogue, dual wielding daggers (c'mon, Burlew's rogue does it all the time), and the florentine style of the swashbuckler.
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2020-08-10, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2019
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2020-08-10, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2016
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2020-08-10, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2015
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2020-08-10, 07:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2015
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2020-08-10, 07:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2013
Re: Question? Why the heck wouldn't...
Last edited by OldTrees1; 2020-08-10 at 07:10 PM.
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2020-08-10, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2013
- Location
- USA
- Gender
Re: Question? Why the heck wouldn't...
If Rogues were given a limited Two-Weapon Fighting style for daggers then it would push a specific character concept on them, i.e. The Rogue Who Dual Wields Daggers. Personally, I've always seen Rogues as jacks of all trades, masters of none. I think giving them a unique ability that only works with one specific weapon would not only be antithetical to this concept but discourage player creativity with their characters and builds.
Also, as others have said before me, this would be a pretty insignificant buff to Rogues. Most of their damage comes from sneak attack. Giving them their DEX modifier on single attack per round isn't going to actually make a meaningful difference.
I think it might be okay with Swashbucklers getting TWF for free. But still, it wouldn't be a meaningful buff to them. Rogues are known to dual wield, sure. But in 5th edition it only serves one purpose, to get a second attempt at activating sneak attack. Dual wielding is not inherently a strength for them and isn't something you can really build a Rogue around. It's a tool in their arsenal, but not the basis of their whole character. Hence why they haven't been given TWF already, it simply wouldn't help much nor would it synergize well with the rest of the class.Last edited by Gale; 2020-08-10 at 07:13 PM.
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2020-08-10, 07:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2019
- Gender
Re: Question? Why the heck wouldn't...
As often as I hear people say rogues have too many bonus actions, I still see them use their second weapon when two-weapon fighting most often in actual play. To quickly cover the subclasses, Arcane Trickster and Thief are the only official subclasses that provide extra options for Cunning Action. The Arcane Trickster is usually just going to be trying to steal things like keys if they control their Mage Hand during combat, so this is a super situational option that probably won't come up in most fights unless the player is an extreme kleptomaniac (which is totally possible since they're playing a rogue ). The Thief's "Fast Hands" feature that allows for the Use An Object action as a bonus action is probably the biggest single best option that I see. You can throw items or set traps with this, and although I don't actually see it in practice much, a really smart Thief player can spend several turns using this to set up some really useful terrain traps or item combos. Unfortunately, I still see most people ignore this though because so few players don't bother with traps or thrown items at all.
- The Inquisitive from XGE also gets the "Eye for Detail" feature to make a spot check for hidden foes and clues as bonus action. Inquisitives also get a bonus action to use "Insightful Fighting". Since this feature grants the ability to use Sneak Attack outside the normal conditions (proximity to ally or advantage). However, this feature lasts for an entire minute so you get 10 full rounds before having to try it out again. In the end, this feature just takes up a turn to start things off when you don't already get Sneak Attack and is then followed by the usual spamming of normal attacks.
- Mastermind lets you use Help as a bonus action. This one is probably the biggest potential drain of bonus actions since it reliably grants advantage to another player. In theory, you can help your teams land their nova damage abilities like critical smites and attacking spells, but let's be honest. We're talking about rogues here, and it's a hard ask of the average rogue to do much for anyone besides themselves. Even if this rogue player is particularly generous with bonus actions for teamwork, this ability still probably won't see much use outside fights against high stat/AC boss-type enemies where advantage matters most.
- The next time rogues get stuff for their bonus action is going to be 13th (Versatile Trickster and Elegant Maneuver) or 17th level (Sudden Strike for Scout), and I don't think those features merit much mention much mention. Both 13th-level features are for granting a single turn of advantage on attacks or a stat check, which are fairly situational. The 17th-level Scout feature is basically two-weapon fighting for people that didn't take two-weapon fighting.
And obviously, yes, multiclasses like Fighter/Rogue are going to stack a bit more on the same resource, but that's normal for any multiclass and we're specifically talking about rogues here.
In summary, I really don't see it when people talk about how Rogues' bonus actions are too stacked. Two-weapon fighting gets a good chance to shine for the average player because, despite the theoretical options, people love spamming weapon attacks.