Need M&M advice

[Grynning]

So I've just finished reading Mutants and Masterminds, 2nd ed. for the first time, and I really, really like it, but I have to say it's one of the more complex character build systems I've seen. Before I try to play or run it, I want to make sure I understand it completely, so I thought I'd put up the first character I tried making and see if I did it right. Please let me know if I screwed up, and also let me know how I would "optimize" the build in the system. I only have the main rulebook, so no supplements at this point, please.

Also, any advice on running the system, what builds are fun and/or broken, etc., would be appreciated.

This is the Silver Sprite (actually an adaptation of an old Heroes Unlimited character). She's supposed to be a lawyer by day, force-field wielding leader of a team of superheroes by night kind of thing. Basically, she uses force fields to protect herself and others, force blasts and flight to capture and subdue bad guys.

PL 10, 150 points

Abilities - 26 points
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 16

Skills - 15 points (I just did 5 ranks in each for simplicity's sake, these would be fine-tuned for an actual game).
5 ranks each in: Bluff, Computers, Concentration, Diplomacy, Gather Info, Intimidate, Investigate, Knowledge (Law), Notice, Profession (Attourney), Search, and Sense Motive

Powers - 66 points
Force Field 10, Impervious Extra, Affects Others extra, Reach 4 (feat) - 34 points
Blast 8 - 16 points
Flight 8 - 16 points.

Feats - 3 pts
Precise Shot, Leadership, Move-by-Action

Attack +6 - 12 pts
Defense +7 - 14 pts

Fort +7, Reflex +8, Will +8, Toughness +12 - 14 pts

Obviously this is very basic, but just want to make sure I have the right idea.

[sun_tzu]

Looks mostly right, save for this little detail:

Fort +7, Reflex +8, Will +8, Toughness +12 - 14 pts

I think you missed a point there.

[Grynning]

You are correct sir...love the Thrawn Avitar btw.

[Jerthanis]

What I do whenever I try to think how builds are "supposed to go" is look at the example characters listed in the book. In all my examinations I've never seen any blatant inconsistencies there, so it's probably a good measuring stick.

The most important guiding principle to adhere to is the idea of the trade-off between Attack bonus/max save bonus and Defense/Toughness... and you didn't violate that at all with your character, and in a few cases, you're a couple points short of something or another. Your max Toughness Save is +12, which means your maximum defense mod is +8, but your character has +7 there.

One thing in terms of optimization is the feats Dodge Focus and Attack Focus... they're ranked, which means they're an incredible source of extra points. If your current character were to pick up a sword (or an uprooted post, or a gun, or a giant rubber chicken) and swing it around, she'd be pretty much as good at it as shooting her force-blasts, which may be in your concept, or might not. If you want to mostly be good at throwing force bolts around, just grab a few levels of Attack Focus: Ranged, or Attack Specialization: Forcebolt... it will save a bundle of points on your raw Attack bonus. Do the same for Defense, drop it a few levels, grab a few ranks of Dodge Focus, then get Uncanny Dodge if you want to be cheesy.

The thing is, is I don't think this type of cheese is unacceptable... each of the example characters with a few exceptions (the speedster comes to mind) have their best attacks at their maximum Attack Bonus/Toughness Save rank (Energy Controller has a +8 to hit/+12 toughness save blast) and/or maxed out Defense/toughness (EC also has +8 defense/+12 toughness with FF)

Anyway, good luck with the game... it's a little complicated, but once it's fully understood, it's an amazingly balanced point system that doesn't sacrifice freedom.

[Tormsskull]

Need M&M advice

I'd go with plain. Peanut are all the rave to some people, but nothing is so simple and good as the plain M&M.

[PnP Fan]

First off, let me say you've chosen wisely in your decision to use MnM as your super hero game of choice.

The nice thing about the game is actually it's simplicity in play, while still maintaining a comic book feel. No hit points, a handful of rolls each round, very simple. I'm not sure about how much in game mechanics I can put up, so I'm just going to give you some advice on how to read the book. Sounds simple, but I've had friends have a hard time with the system. First thing is this: Every combat action requires two d20 rolls, usually some kind of attack roll, and some kind of resistance roll. Look for the exceptions to this rule. Second thing is, Read the Sidebars. The little grey boxes next to certain powers contain some very sage advice. Follow it, especially at the beginning. It'll keep things from getting out of hand. Otherwise, it's much the same as running D&D, but adapted for a modern day setting. Instead of dungeons, you have buildings, instead of monsters you've got evil supers and recurring villains, etc. . . Also, I would encourage you to take advantage of the power extras, you can come up with all kinds of neat things to really personalize your villains, so that they don't all wind up looking like the same characters. The templates are a good place to start, but don't be afraid to venture away from that. Hmm. . . don't be afraid to make your villains a little more powerful than your players, but not too much more, 3-4 levels should be a cap. Finally, make sure your players understand GM Fiat, and don't be afraid to use it, but only when it serves the plotline of the story.

Also, once you've followed sun-tzu's advice and saved some points, spend them on some of the following feats: leadership, inspiration, luck, and teamwork. It will help make your crunch meet up with your "leader of a team" fluff, and it will help improve the overall effectiveness of your team.

good luck!

[prufock]

You've got the right idea. And trust me, it gets easier. It can seem overwhelming at first, because you have such freedom and so many choices, but you get used to it. Just start with concepts and build up, which seems to be what you did here.

[Lord Tataraus]

I will say that it is not as hard as it seems at first, you just need to realize that you can do anything and run with it.

That being my contribution, I guess I'll ask a question of my own. I have had a problem when running an actual M&M campaign, none of my players whats an actual campaign. They just want me to generate a list of villains and throw them at the group to take down. That's ok I guess, but its not really fun for me. My players insist that a campaign just doesn't "work" for a superheroes game, sighting various comicbooks (which I try to point out have a lot more than just fighting in them). What would the best way be to start up a campaign with these guys? I noticed that since they know there will be nothing but combat, the ignore any non-combat abilities, unbalancing the group. Help!

[sun_tzu]

I will say that it is not as hard as it seems at first, you just need to realize that you can do anything and run with it.

That being my contribution, I guess I'll ask a question of my own. I have had a problem when running an actual M&M campaign, none of my players whats an actual campaign. They just want me to generate a list of villains and throw them at the group to take down. That's ok I guess, but its not really fun for me. My players insist that a campaign just doesn't "work" for a superheroes game, sighting various comicbooks (which I try to point out have a lot more than just fighting in them). What would the best way be to start up a campaign with these guys? I noticed that since they know there will be nothing but combat, the ignore any non-combat abilities, unbalancing the group. Help!

Give them plot hooks that make them curious about finding out what's next?
In my current M&M campaign, the story is full of mysteries, and I make sure the players know it. They discover what's going on gradually.
Also, interesting NPCs (villains and others) can help.

[Grynning]

Thanks to all for the great advice so far.
To Lord Tartauros (I spell everyone's name wrong, sorry): If all they want to do is fight, let them....except have the fights start getting harder...and harder...and maybe the bad guys are all from the same alien planet (or secret agency, whatever), and they start making vague threats about the doom of the planet that is coming. Something like that would at least prompt a preemptive strike on the part of the players, meaning they have to start mystery solving and gathering resources to go hunt down the source of the attacks. They'll just think they're doing it all so they can go do some more head-knocking, but they'll be role-playing before they know it.

[Mr. Friendly]

Need M&M advice

I'd go with plain. Peanut are all the rave to some people, but nothing is so simple and good as the plain M&M.

Clearly, this is the root of our disagreement.

Peanut M & M's are the best.

[Riffington]

Let us agree that peanut and plain are both good, so long as they are green.

[PnP Fan]

For the fellow looking to start a campaign.

First, find counter examples. The current run of Marvel stuff is excellent for non-head busting campaigns. Yes, there is still some head busting, but there are also lots of mysteries, and questions as to why certain characters are behaving like they are, or who the heroes can trust.

Also, there happens to be a TV show that completely rocks called Heroes. Completely a story focused show (instead of an action adventure show), with very little combat. And when there is combat, it's a huge deal.

Also, read some super hero novels, partcularly the series edited/compiled by George R. R. Martin, called Wildcards. Lots of story.

You just have to get your players to think differently about comic book heroes. It helps if you've actually got comic book fans in your group, instead of people who haven't read a comic since they were children. The characters in comic books aren't quite as two dimensional as they used to be. Well, I suppose technically they are still two dimensional, but, metaphorically, they have more depth. . .

Next time your players are doing supers, do a short story. One session with a story might change their outlook.

[PnP Fan]

Oh, and I like blue and red, plain.

[OzymandiasVolt]

Let us compromise and have peanutbutter M&M's. Preferably the blue ones.

Also, I must second (third? fourth?) the opinion that you made a good decision using M&M. As someone who has played both, I would liken it to BESM, but with all the horrible design flaws worked out.

[PnP Fan]

I swear, I'm not trying to bump my number of posts. . .

For the supers campaing writer:

Also, one of the greatests stories in comics: The Watchmen. Find a copy of it, share it with your friends. It's not a happy comic, but it is a fine example of what can be done with a comic story. There are maybe 3-4 fights over the 12 issue series, and some of them take place in flashbacks. At least one of the superheroes is overweight (middle aged batman esque character called the Owl), and at least 3 of the good guys are insane (portrayed in a reasonable fashion).

[Grynning]

Second the Watchmen motion. That is one of the best books of all time, comic or novel. I freakin love Alan Moore.
Other good comics to consider for inspiration:
Wanted by Mark Millar (very action packed but with good story as well).
The "Hush" Batman Arc by Jeph Loeb.
The Ultimates by Mark Millar and others - a great take on "modernizing" old superheroes.

[String]

Your max Toughness Save is +12, which means your maximum defense mod is +8, but your character has +7 there.

Just my 2cp. I don't think that unless you are trying to completely wring every ounce of efficiency out of this character (which is perfectly fine, and actually very easy for MnM), that this isnt an issue. Hell, most supers probably fall below their "Caps", in some form or another. It all depends on your concept. And if you really wanted some min-maxing, you could make blast or flight an AP of forcefield, and save yourself 15-30 pp.

[Grynning]

If you make them alternate powers of the force-field, you can't use them at the same time - dropping force-field to fly or blast = toughness save down to +2 (no FF).

[Pauwel]

Just my 2cp. I don't think that unless you are trying to completely wring every ounce of efficiency out of this character (which is perfectly fine, and actually very easy for MnM), that this isnt an issue. Hell, most supers probably fall below their "Caps", in some form or another. It all depends on your concept. And if you really wanted some min-maxing, you could make blast or flight an AP of forcefield, and save yourself 15-30 pp.

Well, you see, if you don't meet your caps you're essentially below your PL. All PL actually does is raise the caps, and since you're supposed to play at your PL, you're also supposed to meet the caps. Nothing optimized about it, it's just how the game works.
If it's okay that the heroes have different PLs, that's all fine, but it's just important to know.

[Jerthanis]

Just my 2cp. I don't think that unless you are trying to completely wring every ounce of efficiency out of this character (which is perfectly fine, and actually very easy for MnM), that this isnt an issue. Hell, most supers probably fall below their "Caps", in some form or another. It all depends on your concept. And if you really wanted some min-maxing, you could make blast or flight an AP of forcefield, and save yourself 15-30 pp.

The issues of hitting the maximums as an intrinsic part of the PL system aside (I agree with that being the concept behind the system by the way), the OP also specifically asked if the build was legal and how it might be "optimized".

Okay, I feel like talking about something else, so I'll also mention a couple builds I've thought of that are each pretty ridiculous. The first costs hundreds of points and involves use of the Adaptive power with the Reaction ability, coupled with Immunity to gain immunity to one thing at a time, switchable once per round as a free action. Basically requires the DM to throw two things at you at once to even have a chance against you.

The other is use of the Duplication power with the Horde extra... taken to extreme extent. Take it at level 10, grab Progression 10 times and you've got 1000:1 odds you'll beat your opponents up severely.

[Green Bean]

The issues of hitting the maximums as an intrinsic part of the PL system aside (I agree with that being the concept behind the system by the way), the OP also specifically asked if the build was legal and how it might be "optimized".

Okay, I feel like talking about something else, so I'll also mention a couple builds I've thought of that are each pretty ridiculous. The first costs hundreds of points and involves use of the Adaptive power with the Reaction ability, coupled with Immunity to gain immunity to one thing at a time, switchable once per round as a free action. Basically requires the DM to throw two things at you at once to even have a chance against you.

The other is use of the Duplication power with the Horde extra... taken to extreme extent. Take it at level 10, grab Progression 10 times and you've got 1000:1 odds you'll beat your opponents up severely.

Don't forget about the good old fashioned Bathroom Mentalist.

Anyways, the build looks good, except the forcefield looks a little odd. Are you trying to make a force bubble 20 feet in diameter, or are you giving everyone within 20 feet a force field? Because if it's the former, you may be better served by taking Impervious Force Field with an AP of Create Object. It would be cheaper, and it's great if you're going for Green Lantern-style force manipulation.

[PnP Fan]

Hell, most supers probably fall below their "Caps", in some form or another.

Pretty much all supers fall below old Cap'. And now Cap has fallen. :_(
<pauses for a moment of silence>

But seriously, addressing the actual subject of this post, I agree. Most characters wind up falling short in something. And it's not really that big of a deal, as long as you don't fall more than 3-4 points below your PL. For example, the Adventurer and the Martial Artist templates strike me as being incredibly ineffective templates, because their damage ratings are comparatively low (+4 to +5). That's an easy save for any supervillain to make. But if your damage rating is a little low (2 pts below PL), you can make up for that with levels of Improved Critical. I'm not sure it's cost effective, but if you really want that bump in BAB, it's there.

[Green Bean]

Pretty much all supers fall below old Cap'. And now Cap has fallen. :_(
<pauses for a moment of silence>

But seriously, addressing the actual subject of this post, I agree. Most characters wind up falling short in something. And it's not really that big of a deal, as long as you don't fall more than 3-4 points below your PL. For example, the Adventurer and the Martial Artist templates strike me as being incredibly ineffective templates, because their damage ratings are comparatively low (+4 to +5). That's an easy save for any supervillain to make. But if your damage rating is a little low (2 pts below PL), you can make up for that with levels of Improved Critical. I'm not sure it's cost effective, but if you really want that bump in BAB, it's there.

Alternatively, that's what things like Power Attack and Stunning Attack are for; letting the high attack/low damage characters affect the guys with high Toughness.

[PnP Fan]

Excellent point (couldn't remember if those templates had those feats or not). Again, you still face an issue of "point efficiency", but it does allow for characters that are very effective "Mook killers" that can still deal with the high toughness characters.

Man I love this game.

[Grynning]

Yeah, I realized a while later that Create Object was more what I was going for. The reach/affects others stuff was meant so that I could put FF's on other people, one way or another. I skipped over Create Objects because I was looking for an actual Wall of Force or Force Bubble type power.

[PnP Fan]

Yeah, that was something that took my buddies some time to get used to. The powers in MnM are effects based, unlike most supers games (Heroes Unlimited, Marvel Superheroes, probably others). Most supers games are written around the concept of what a power ought to do, which is why in a lot of systems, your fire powered blaster looks the same as the NPC fire powered blaster, and only marginally different that the ice powered blaster.

In MnM you have to decide what your fire powered guy can do, and then model it using the effects based powers described in the book. Because everything is effect based, you also have a hard time coming up with uber-combos that are cheap or more powerful. Concept based games almost always wind up making one group of powers more useful or more powerful than others, usually under the protective banner of "that's how it works in the comics".

MnM 1ed was effects based as well, but there were enough loopholes in the rules that it took a lot of GM adjudication to prevent things from getting ridiculous (still better than many of the alternatives though).