OOTS #1210 - The Discussion Thread

[One Skunk Todd]

I do not know whether this has been mentioned anywhere, but there is a deep, painful irony on Redcloak's actions here.
Simply put,

Spoiler: SOD

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if Durkon had actually died from Redcloak's little gambit here, he would have died the EXACT SAME WAY that the Dark One himself died: peacefully arriving to attempt negotations but viciously murdered in the middle of the peace talks because his opposite number never actually respected him. The only reason he didn't is because he (rightfully) planned for a possible betrayal. I am wondering if that will ever occur to either RD or his god...

Following that to its logical conclusion:

Spoiler

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If RC had killed Durkon then Durkon would have ascended into godhood of his own pantheon with his own quiddity. I’m guessing orange. :)

[Fyraltari]

I am glad Durkon survived, although sad that he still suffered horribly. I thought the comic might be an extended scene of him dying in agony but it wasn't quite that bad since he was saved in the end.

But I am very depressed that it reflects every bit as badly on Redcloak as I had thought the worst case scenario would. Everything about the comic points to Redcloak being an absolutely hopeless cause: Redcloak tries to kill Durkon and puts him through excruciating pain, Durkon calls him a murderer of goblins through gritted teeth, and Minrah smashes the negotiating table in the rescue. Durkon effectively got under Redcloak's skin, but that doesn't suggest he managed to successfully plant any seeds of doubt or hope in him that might sprout later. Nor did Durkon's clapback suggest he saw anything in Redcloak worth bothering with in the future. I'm not looking forward to a coming arc where Redcloak sheds all of his remaining sympathetic qualities on the slide to an inevitable karmic death, but this comic sure doesn't point to any outcome other than that one.

It might be less painful in the long run to dispense with all pretense of hope right away rather than drag out the idea that Redcloak might be salvageable only to have it go nowhere, but there's nothing that's going to make me like the actual spectacle of watching a character that we've had over a decade's worth of time invested in become a thoroughly detestable shell of his former self, just at the time when he finally gets to interact with any of the title characters after six full books of encountering them only peripherally. Nor am I really chomping at the bit to see the inevitable emergence of our last-minute Reasonable Goblin Substitute who will be everything Redcloak couldn't. I'll give it a few more comics to see if there's more to this than we've seen or the potential for some other development, but after that...

Redcloak has been "a detestable shell of his former self" for years on end now, and the entirety of the free-to-read online comic. That's why we don't know his birth name.

The idea that Durkon, a complete stranger from what he considers an ennemy people and an ennemy religion would be able to fix him in a conversation was always a pipe dream. I am fairly confident that Redcloak will end up on the side of the angels before all is said and done, but for that to happen something must happen to him to make him want to change. Because, and I think that is one of the most important lessons of life, one I still haven't fully learned: no matter how hard you try, you cannot logic someone out of a situation they didn't logic themselves into.

[Quizatzhaderac]

He is literally all in. v(Darnit, I've been reading old bits, now I can't remember the sequence where he tells someone he's talking to that he had pushed all of his chips onto the table. Grr.

544 Also has Redcloak's only pun.

However, the thing is Thor's plan specifically requires Redcloak to willingly seal the rifts. Or I guess maybe Jirix will level to 17 or Durkon will level and convert, but I don't see this ending without Redcloak being at least grudgingly accepting of the peace.

I admit, I'd not even considered the possibility that Implosion would prevent resurrection.

The spell description just says the target will "collapse in on itself, killing it", but it doesn't say to what degree.

The most boring explanation I could think of it "just enough to kill, which is like 95% volume for a typical humanoid", this would also explain why undead are immune, since they'd still be there, just not quite as big.

Of course, D&D likes it's critical existence failure so a singularity or a small rock *maybe the same weight as the ashes produced by disintegration?) seems just as reasonable an outcome

[The_Weirdo]

They're dead, though.

Maybe the gods could make a big show of reallocating their souls somewhere deeply unpleasant, then? That might assuage Redcloak, possibly even into redemption, if the cards are played right...

I mean, surely Celestia isn't exactly the kind of place where mass-murderers that slaughtered innocent villages go to spend their afterlives?

no matter how hard you try, you cannot logic someone out of a situation they didn't logic themselves into.

You cannot begin to fathom how that sentence depresses me. It's not wrong, just depressing.

[Rrmcklin]

It might help to know that there's roughly zero chance of your predictions coming to fruition.

This behavior is a roughly straight-line continuation of Redcloak's character, which is the expected result of an initial confrontation. It in no way precludes Redcloak being part of the solution, whether or not that includes some form of personal redemption for him.

And the plain fact is that there are no substitutes for Redcloak. There's no one else who can participate in Thor's ritual. It's going to be Redcloak staring down the barrel of that choice. Count on it.

I mean, I don't count on it, because I can very easily see this story not ending with Thor's plan and ritual. That's a possibility. In which case, Redcloak neither gets redeemed, nor is he a part of the solution. Which, really, I think has always been what his character is about.

[LadyEowyn]

Heroic sacrifice (and death in general) should be the conclusion of a character's own story, not a stepping stone to another's. It just has additionnal ugly implication when a female character gets killed to prod a male one.

EDIT: Also the "women in fridge" thing is much like the Bechdel Test, it happening in a story does not make the story sexist, but the trend is worrisome.

Thanks for this. The issue lies with the fact that women being killed off to motivate male characters being, firstly, so frequent (much more so that the reverse), and secondly, in a broader context where there are so many more male characters than female ones.

And this is a good opportunity to mention how happy I was that when (quite a while back), after someone the forum compared the number of lines by female characters to those by male characters and found a substantial disparity, Rich responded with, in essence “I hadn’t realized that, am disturbed by it, and will make an effort to correct to it”. And then made a definite point of doing so, with the addition of female secondary characters with substantial roles (Bandana, Andi, Minrah, etc).

It’s so, so common for authors/artists/creators to respond to criticism of that kind with defensiveness or offense, or brushing it off as “I didn’t mean to so it doesn’t matter”. An author taking it seriously and making changes in response to it shouldn’t be rare, but it is, so I really appreciate Rich for that.

[Fyraltari]

But we the audience know that Roy was taking the Redcloak situation seriously (as when he talked to Julia about it), Durkon doesn't know that and doesn't know that Roy came up with a plan that might help that he was happy with.

Accepting that interpretation for a bit, that'd be Roy's fault, not Durkon's. Moreover, Roy did explain his plan of talking to Redclaok after beating Team Evil in the tenth panel.

544 Also has Redcloak's only pun.

Where?

Maybe the gods could make a big show of reallocating their souls somewhere deeply unpleasant, then? That might assuage Redcloak, possibly even into redemption, if the cards are played right...

I mean, surely Celestia isn't exactly the kind of place where mass-murderers that slaughtered innocent villages go to spend their afterlives?

I'm pretty sure that once a soul is allowed into a Plane thay're not leaving. I also doubt that'd be the gods' call, unless they went to their own place.

Also, Roy was almost denied entry into Celestia because he considered abandonning a comrade once. I doubt you'll find any child murderer in there.

[One Skunk Todd]

RAW Implosion is VERY unclear on what happens to the remains of the creature it kills or what state they're in. The Giant has evidently ruled that it doesn't leave any. Redcloak's statement ("implode into oblivion") supports this ruling.

Ah thanks, I see. I misread what RC was saying. I thought he was referring to some EXTRA effect on top of implosion that he was adding to the cast somehow.

[JSSheridan]

544
However, the thing is Thor's plan specifically requires Redcloak to willingly seal the rifts. Or I guess maybe Jirix will level to 17 or Durkon will level and convert, but I don't see this ending without Redcloak being at least grudgingly accepting of the peace.

Does it have to be freely given, or would compulsory magic still allow for it?

[Fyraltari]

You cannot begin to fathom how that sentence depresses me. It's not wrong, just depressing.

We're a bunch of flawed apes, that's for sure, but we do better everyday.

Thanks for this.

Don't mention it.

[The_Weirdo]

I'm pretty sure that once a soul is allowed into a Plane thay're not leaving. I also doubt that'd be the gods' call, unless they went to their own place.

Also, Roy was almost denied entry into Celestia because he considered abandonning a comrade once. I doubt you'll find any child murderer in there.

I mean, they likely kept their Paladin powers, if we consider that the Giant is on record as saying it was a decades-long campaign in which they never lost them? Unless, and I don't see it as likely, Redcloak's village was their first time slaughtering innocents?

[Fyraltari]

I mean, they likely kept their Paladin powers, if we consider that the Giant is on record as saying it was a decades-long campaign in which they never lost them? Unless, and I don't see it as likely, Redcloak's village was their first time slaughtering innocents?

I think the Paladin's fall mecanic is more of a rough indicator compared to the evaluation of one's life on the cloud-plane.

[GregTD]

So, like I said in the thread for the last page of the comic, I'm pretty sure Redcloak's plan has not been revealed. I'm of the opinion there are several red herrings going on in the story (for example, Odin's Prophecy about Durkon).

Yeah, we have seen Redclock's plan. From his own mouth, at a point when he has no reason to lie

[The_Weirdo]

I think the Paladin's fall mecanic is more of a rough indicator compared to the evaluation of one's life on the cloud-plane.

From your lipsfingers to (a deity)the Giant's earseyes.

[GregTD]

I mean, they likely kept their Paladin powers, if we consider that the Giant is on record as saying it was a decades-long campaign in which they never lost them? Unless, and I don't see it as likely, Redcloak's village was their first time slaughtering innocents?

The Giant is on record as having said "we didn't get to see (in that comic) how many of them discovered the next day that they were no longer Paladins."

So your assumption seems, at best, unsupported by the available evidence

[Rogar Demonblud]

I mean, they likely kept their Paladin powers, if we consider that the Giant is on record as saying it was a decades-long campaign in which they never lost them? Unless, and I don't see it as likely, Redcloak's village was their first time slaughtering innocents?

Could be. We don't know they ever fought in another village before. We don't know if they didn't. Simplest explanation is that they probably usually intercepted raiding parties or hit warcamps instead of happening to find the Bearer in a village.

[Silverionmox]

I skipped the drama by the expedient method of not reading the last comic thread, but now I'm curious: what kind of justification was given to Durkon starting to be distorted by the implosion in the last panel of the last comic?
Grey Wolf

Read the spell description closely: it says you need to concentrate an entire round for the spell to take effect. The effect is instantaneous, but the concentration is not. That also explains why the spell has a duration of four rounds: from round 1 to 2 is one kill attempt, round 2 to 3 is one kill attempt, and round 3 to 4 is one kill attempt for the traditional well-rounded three in stories, which Elan certainly would appreciate.

So Minrah obviously took advantage of the built-in opportunity to disrupt Redcloak's concentration during her turn to prevent the implosion from taking effect on his turn.

[The_Weirdo]

Could be. We don't know they ever fought in another village before. We don't know if they didn't. Simplest explanation is that they probably usually intercepted raiding parties or hit warcamps instead of happening to find the Bearer in a village.

The Giant is on record as having said "we didn't get to see (in that comic) how many of them discovered the next day that they were no longer Paladins."

So your assumption seems, at best, unsupported by the available evidence

Well, while Rogar's explanation seems to be slightly convoluted in my view, it does have the undeniable merit of explaining the decades-long campaign part while accounting for a fall after the first village raided. So it is quite likely, yes.

And Greg, well, yes, but - without Rogar's explanation - I could not fathom how the two facts - the thing being decades-long and them falling after hitting one village - would add up, since they'd stop slaughtering civilians after they fell. That said, Rogar's explanation does tie it all up quite decently.

[Fyraltari]

From your lipsfingers to (a deity)the Giant's earseyes.

I do not understand.

EDIT:

Well, while Rogar's explanation seems to be slightly convoluted in my view, it does have the undeniable merit of explaining the decades-long campaign part while accounting for a fall after the first village raided. So it is quite likely, yes.

And Greg, well, yes, but - without Rogar's explanation - I could not fathom how the two facts - the thing being decades-long and them falling after hitting one village - would add up, since they'd stop slaughtering civilians after they fell. That said, Rogar's explanation does tie it all up quite decently.

It's also possible that the mounting frustration of a decade-long campaign without result drove them to... harsher methods.

Spoiler: How the paladin got his scars

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We know that having to start over from scratch account for a lot of Gin-Jun's unhinged mental state.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Where?

Panel #8. The word "Ken" has two unrelated meanings.

One is knowledge (O'chul's sense), "outside your ken" = "You don't know what you're doing". Rather archaic, so one would rarely hear it outside that expression.

The other is short for the proper name "Kennith" which is the name of a doll that is the boyfriend to the super popular Barbie, who is known to have a Malibu dream house.

Does it have to be freely given, or would compulsory magic still allow for it?

The Giant's comment didn't say that Redcloak needs to be casting it of his free will, free on mind altering effects, but I will be very shocked and disappointed if this end with Redcloak being dominated and hauled around every corner to the world while still getting spells from the Dark One.

[The_Weirdo]

I do not understand.

EDIT:


It's also possible that the mounting frustration of a decade-long campaign without result drove them to... harsher methods.

Spoiler: How the paladin got his scars

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We know that having to start over from scratch account for a lot of Gin-Jun's unhinged mental state.

It was a play on the expression "From your lips to God's ear". Sorry, this one was totally my fault that I wasn't clearer.

And eh, possible, or maybe a mix of both.

[Lethologica]

I mean, I don't count on it, because I can very easily see this story not ending with Thor's plan and ritual. That's a possibility. In which case, Redcloak neither gets redeemed, nor is he a part of the solution. Which, really, I think has always been what his character is about.

I can see the story not ending with that ritual, of course. There's so many other factors in play. However, I can't see this story ending without Redcloak staring down that choice. That is to say, just because other factors will complicate the outcome doesn't mean this factor can or will go ignored.

As for what his character has always been about, I'm going to return to something I said in the last thread:

I am not claiming that every action of Redcloak's reflects on all goblinkind or that all goblins are like Redcloak. Only that the resolution of Redcloak's character arc is deeply bound up with the thematic portrayal and practical fate of goblinkind as well as Redcloak's personal demons. That is to say, one way or another, Redcloak will be instrumental to realizing whatever goblinoid endgame Rich has in mind, and Redcloak's character arc will be a primary vehicle for grappling with the nature of that endgame.

For example: what we are witnessing here is not just Redcloak and Durkon jawing about a deal among gods and mortals. We're laying out an ideological dispute about goblin equality and the path to it - whether to tactically accept social injustice and work by economic means to normalize an environment where more just discourse can thrive, or to insist on political equality from the Powers That Be because racial uplift is doomed in the face of societal oppression. This debate practically could have been written by Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. DuBois.

And what Redcloak does from here, what happens to him and his voice, is deeply tied to what happens to the DuBois perspective on goblin equality in this story. He can be redeemed or further villainized without affecting much; the key question is whether he is legitimized or delegitimized. His actions have been wrong, undoubtedly, and his personal demons have gotten the better of him at many points in the story. But is his perspective right? How Redcloak's character arc continues will play an important role in answering that question.

I don't think it's possible at this point to detach the issue of goblin equality from the issue of Redcloak's character arc. This thread has talked about how wasteful it would be to kill off Minrah here. I think it would be an order of magnitude more wasteful to somehow excise Redcloak's character arc from the goblinoid solution. However twisted he is, Redcloak is also the only speaker for a central and legitimate viewpoint about goblinoid equality. While I don't expect it to be validated wholesale, it must be addressed, it cannot be outright rejected, and Redcloak is the best vehicle for that.

[Dausuul]

Read the spell description closely: it says you need to concentrate an entire round for the spell to take effect. The effect is instantaneous, but the concentration is not.

Ha! Very nice catch. That answers all kinds of questions about the timing and what is actually going on.

[Fyraltari]

Panel #8. The word "Ken" has two unrelated meanings.

One is knowledge (O'chul's sense), "outside your ken" = "You don't know what you're doing". Rather archaic, so one would rarely hear it outside that expression.

The other is short for the proper name "Kennith" which is the name of a doll that is the boyfriend to the super popular Barbie, who is known to have a Malibu dream house.

Aaaaah! So that's what that means!

The Giant's comment didn't say that Redcloak needs to be casting it of his free will, free on mind altering effects, but I will be very shocked and disappointed if this end with Redcloak being dominated and hauled around every corner to the world while still getting spells from the Dark One.

Seconded.

It was a play on the expression "From your lips to God's ear". Sorry, this one was totally my fault that I wasn't clearer.

I don't know what that means either.

[dude123nice]

The implosion spell was obviously houseruled to be used multiple times on the same person. We see the sound effect for the first attempt, in the 2nd panel, and then a gesture from RC and another sound effect in the 5th. The Giant has also stated that he will deviate from the rules whenever he feels like doing it.

[understatement]

I am glad Durkon survived, although sad that he still suffered horribly. I thought the comic might be an extended scene of him dying in agony but it wasn't quite that bad since he was saved in the end.

But I am very depressed that it reflects every bit as badly on Redcloak as I had thought the worst case scenario would. Everything about the comic points to Redcloak being an absolutely hopeless cause: Redcloak tries to kill Durkon and puts him through excruciating pain, Durkon calls him a murderer of goblins through gritted teeth, and Minrah smashes the negotiating table in the rescue. Durkon effectively got under Redcloak's skin, but that doesn't suggest he managed to successfully plant any seeds of doubt or hope in him that might sprout later. Nor did Durkon's clapback suggest he saw anything in Redcloak worth bothering with in the future. I'm not looking forward to a coming arc where Redcloak sheds all of his remaining sympathetic qualities on the slide to an inevitable karmic death, but this comic sure doesn't point to any outcome other than that one.

I think Durkon will try again, regardless of personal feelings, because (as far as he knows) there are no other options. Above all, Durkon wants to save the world and the people on it (Kudzu, Sigdi, even Hilgya) that mean so much to him. He's not going to like it, but he's not going to give up no matter how crazy Redcloak becomes, because the alternative is that the world gets destroyed and the cycle continues.

It might be less painful in the long run to dispense with all pretense of hope right away rather than drag out the idea that Redcloak might be salvageable only to have it go nowhere, but there's nothing that's going to make me like the actual spectacle of watching a character that we've had over a decade's worth of time invested in become a thoroughly detestable shell of his former self, just at the time when he finally gets to interact with any of the title characters after six full books of encountering them only peripherally. Nor am I really chomping at the bit to see the inevitable emergence of our last-minute Reasonable Goblin Substitute who will be everything Redcloak couldn't. I'll give it a few more comics to see if there's more to this than we've seen or the potential for some other development, but after that...

Well, Redcloak will betray Xykon at some point, and I suspect the Order will try to take advantage of it beforehand. It's really early in the book (only 20 comics in) and just as so much changed within these 20, a lot more could happen in the next 200.

Maybe a slightly uplifting commentary from UD:

Spoiler

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There are no easy solutions and there’s no rulebook he can consult. In some ways, it is more of a challenge to his newfound resolve than any combat encounter could be. If he falls into his old patterns and lets Hilgya take the lead, then his son will likely be raised as a chaotic Loki-worshipper. But attempting to seize total control will also backfire, as her equal clerical power means she can easily disappear with Kudzu. He must make a true peace with her, such that she’s willing to share responsibility for their child’s wellbeing—just as he now must find a way to make peace with Redcloak for the sake of the entire world.

[The_Weirdo]

I don't know what that means either.

It means "I hope your hypothesis turns out to be true".

In Portuguese it is "Deus te ouça", literally "May God hear you".

Is there such an expression in French?

[woweedd]

BADASS! Durkon sending burns, and Minrah sending..Wel, JEsus.

[Peelee]

Maybe the gods could make a big show of reallocating their souls somewhere deeply unpleasant, then?

I don't think the comic is about what you want it to be about.

[dancrilis]

I don't know what that means either.

They are saying they hope you are right (I don't think you are based on word of Giant but finding the references is something I will/might do later).