OOTS #1210 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

I think that the best way for the strip to fulfill it's thematic promise is for a different character to take leadership of the goblinoids and find a wake to make peace that doesn't involve trying to re-write the fabric of reality.

Spoiler: SoD

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It may involve gouda.

Ya know, that's just crazy enough to work.

I do not know whether this has been mentioned anywhere, but there is a deep, painful irony on Redcloak's actions here.
Simply put,

Spoiler: SOD

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if Durkon had actually died from Redcloak's little gambit here, he would have died the EXACT SAME WAY that the Dark One himself died: peacefully arriving to attempt negotations but viciously murdered in the middle of the peace talks because his opposite number never actually respected him. The only reason he didn't is because he (rightfully) planned for a possible betrayal. I am wondering if that will ever occur to either RD or his god...

That hadn't occurred to me, but you're spot on there. I suspect that may come up later.

[Quizatzhaderac]

The main problem with redemption in this case is that it would necessitate a lot of rezzing and making of amends.

On both parts, really.

There are different kinds of redemption. One of the biggest problems for fixing OOTS world in that certain types of justice are contradictory.

I don't see this story ending with a final accounting of everyone's sins, I see the ending as a world where counting sins starts at all. If Redcloak stops doing evil stuff, that doesn't make him good (by most definitions), but it does make him better.

[understatement]

Are there any spells V would be likely to know that would potentially remove a high-level enemy cleric from the equation without actually killing him for a long enough period that he wouldn't be a factor when the Order confronts Xykon?

They can't kill Redcloak, so that makes things much more complicated than Redcloak's similar plan to remove an enemy asset, but it seems an awful waste to have Redcloak all alone, and the element of surprise hopelessly lost, with nothing gained when negotiations broke down. It feels like Durkon may have lost a golden opportunity by not at least floating this idea past Roy and having the rest of the party also waiting in the wings, making it clear that if Redcloak responded with violence it would at least be a chance for the rest of the party to move on him while he's isolated, with an understanding that if nothing worked in the first few rounds they would make a break for it before Xykon and the Hobgoblins intervene.

It only takes a round for Xykon to teleport over, and then it'd be game over.

V could do some form of Grasping Hand, maybe? They'd still have to get in range first, and Redcloak might have some Still spell. I don't know.

[Fyraltari]

"the Western gods are alive after a gazillion worlds"

Marduk does have a track record.

snip

Drop the strawman, please.

[The_Weirdo]

It is almost certainly a Righteous Might reskin, perhaps with a bit of extra flavor added on.




Sure, but I don't think RC could even afford to resurrect that many goblins, if they would even accept the spell.

Sure. But the SG would need to do its part as well. Or are the people that went around slaughtering villages blameless?

[Mr. Demiurge]

It only takes a round for Xykon to teleport over, and then it'd be game over.

That's true, but that's a problem even with the plan as it now stands. Minrah has to use at least one combat round to wack Redcloak with Mjolnir before the two of them beat a hasty retreat. What if, while she was doing that, V was also present and using that same round to cast Grasping Hand, as you say? Or Hold Monster, or Dominate, or whatever spell would allow them to snatch up Redcloak and put him somewhere where they can deal with Xykon without his high-level cleric support.

He might make his saving throw, and it might be just one round before they have to clear out with the same loss of surprise for no gain, but it certainly feels like it would have been worth a try.

[KorvinStarmast]

That burn is so hot it would've earned him approval from Hilgya.

Pound for pound one of the best posts in this thread. Top 5, for sure.

Not sure if you'll be glad or cheesed at another proposed reason Minrah dying again would be premature - she has to live to grieve for Belkar. I swear part of why Rich brought her in was to pair her off with Belkar.

Not betting against.

How will the OotS ever be in a position of strength over RC after this?

That's not their objective, though. They need his spell. Being in a position where he will listen is their objective. Still a work in progress.

If Redcloak stops doing evil stuff, that doesn't make him good (by most definitions), but it does make him better.

And it's at least progress, char dev wise. Not betting the over. He said a few strips back that he's pushed all of his chips onto the table).

He is literally all in. v(Darnit, I've been reading old bits, now I can't remember the sequence where he tells someone he's talking to that he had pushed all of his chips onto the table. Grr.

[Marsala]

Besides Durkon's response, note that Redcloak doesn't even bother saying Durkon's name when addressing him, just "dwarf". That's despite Durkon having treated him with respect during the talk.

In fairness to Redcloak, I don't think Durkon gave him his name. He could have still been more respectful, perhaps by calling him "cleric" or "cleric of Thor".

[dancrilis]

Drop the strawman, please.

In order for it to be a strawman I would have take your point, misrepresent it and then attack that misrepresentation to claim some sort of 'victory' - I don't see how I have done any of that.

So perhaps I have missed your point, my assumption was you had no interest in stories dealing with the survivors (which is fine), I thought this based on the following (which I responded to):

I have no objection to spearholder of any kind getting shafted to advance the story, nor to posthumous characters existing to motivate other characters, the issue is with characters who have their own thing going on getting shafted for another character's benefit.

Heroic sacrifice (and death in general) should be the conclusion of a character's own story, not a stepping stone to another's. It just has additionnal ugly implication when a female character gets killed to prod a male one.

Perhaps the issue is I don't know what you mean by spearholder (I assumed you meant some virtual randomer in the background but not an important character).

I should note that saying 'that's a strawman' can often be a strawman arguement if it effective is used to: take a point (whatever point might have been made), misrepresent it (by saying it is a strawman) and then attack that misrepresentation to claim some sort of 'victory' (such as ha you had to strawman my arguement).

[Jasdoif]

I do not know whether this has been mentioned anywhere, but there is a deep, painful irony on Redcloak's actions here.
Simply put,

Spoiler: SOD

Show

if Durkon had actually died from Redcloak's little gambit here, he would have died the EXACT SAME WAY that the Dark One himself died: peacefully arriving to attempt negotations but viciously murdered in the middle of the peace talks because his opposite number never actually respected him. The only reason he didn't is because he (rightfully) planned for a possible betrayal. I am wondering if that will ever occur to either RD or his god...

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Pretty sure they're not "peace talks" since the Dark One's army wasn't attacking anyone; it was more like the Dark One threatening to sic an army on them if they didn't meet his demands.

More to your point...Redcloak portrays the entire Plan as "turnabout is fair play" for the Dark One; I don't think Durkon specifically is going to get much acknowledgement from them.

[understatement]

That's true, but that's a problem even with the plan as it now stands. Minrah has to use at least one combat round to wack Redcloak with Mjolnir before the two of them beat a hasty retreat. What if, while she was doing that, V was also present and using that same round to cast Grasping Hand, as you say? Or Hold Monster, or Dominate, or whatever spell would allow them to snatch up Redcloak and put him somewhere where they can deal with Xykon without his high-level cleric support.

He might make his saving throw, and it might be just one round before they have to clear out with the same loss of surprise for no gain, but it certainly feels like it would have been worth a try.

Redcloak can likely make any Will saving throws (unless he pulls a Hilgya).

How much damage did Minrah do, anyway? Just curious.

[Ionathus]

Redcloak can likely make any Will saving throws (unless he pulls a Hilgya).

How much damage did Minrah do, anyway? Just curious.

Judging from the lack of red or black damage marks on Redcloak, I'd wager somewhere north of "enough damage to break concentration" and somewhere south of "meaningful damage to end the fight."

I think the implication is that Redcloak isn't truly hurt (much), just shocked, and they need to get out of there.

[Peelee]

How much damage did Minrah do, anyway? Just curious.

At least 1.

[Dragonus45]

I do not know whether this has been mentioned anywhere, but there is a deep, painful irony on Redcloak's actions here.
Simply put,

Spoiler: SOD

Show

if Durkon had actually died from Redcloak's little gambit here, he would have died the EXACT SAME WAY that the Dark One himself died: peacefully arriving to attempt negotations but viciously murdered in the middle of the peace talks because his opposite number never actually respected him. The only reason he didn't is because he (rightfully) planned for a possible betrayal. I am wondering if that will ever occur to either RD or his god...

Nah, it will never really occur to him I don't think. We as the readers will notice the irony, but the truth about RC here is that he is just to far gone to really be that self aware. To dedicated to The Plan at all costs, and to far along in his belief that nothing nothing he can do can be wrong so long as he does it for the "correct" reasons. Thor's clerics might get to enjoy a special custom named Righteous Might but RC's most special ability is Righteous Self Delusion.

[Fish]

We should've seen it coming.

Roy says "Has anyone seen Durkon?" but he didn't say "Has anyone seen Durkon or Minrah?" Plus, Durkon and Minrah were working together on that Sending spell to Redcloak, so they were in on it together from the start.

[Psyren]

It's bad taste because it resulted in a fake cliffhanger. For all audience knows, implosion is instant. Then suddenly by fiat, it isn't.

Implosion is not instantaneous. The death effect it causes is, but the spell itself is not.

At least 1.

Hmm, here's a thought exercise - 1 damage would be a DC of 20. If we knew Redcloak's concentration mod, we could calculate the damage Minrah dealt based on that.

[The_Weirdo]

At least 1.

I mean, you're right, but that's a bit of an understatement, don't you think?

[understatement]

At least 1.

This gives me flashbacks to the Exarch's level.

[Jasdoif]

At least 1.

Not necessarily! Even if damage reduction and energy resistance reduced it to zero, violent motion (like being abruptly knocked to the ground by a hammer) still calls for Concentration checks.

[Peelee]

This gives me flashbacks to the Exarch's level.

I aim to please!

Not necessarily! Even if damage reduction and energy resistance reduced it to zero, violent motion (like being abruptly knocked to the ground by a hammer) still calls for Concentration checks.

Dangit, I even went through the list of things that cause concentration checks and figured the other ones didn't make the cut.

[Bleeper]

Anyone else seeing the "Break Down" as a reference to the "Stop. Hammer time!" in the last panel? (MC Hammer, Can't Touch This) Took me a minute, but I genuinely laughed out loud at the subtlety and restraint of the whole thing.

[Grey Watcher]

Anyone else seeing the "Break Down" as a reference to the "Stop. Hammer time!" in the last panel? (MC Hammer, Can't Touch This) Took me a minute, but I genuinely laughed out loud at the subtlety and restraint of the whole thing.

I have no idea if it was intentional, but love it.

[The_Weirdo]

Not necessarily! Even if damage reduction and energy resistance reduced it to zero, violent motion (like being abruptly knocked to the ground by a hammer) still calls for Concentration checks.

Now all you need to do is convince me that being abruptly knocked to the ground by a hammer qualifies as violent motion.

[Rogar Demonblud]

He is literally all in. v(Darnit, I've been reading old bits, now I can't remember the sequence where he tells someone he's talking to that he had pushed all of his chips onto the table. Grr.

IMS, when he was interrogating O-Chul on the tower.

[Jaziggy]

So do you think Minrah followed Durkon without his knowledge or was Durkon's escape plan? I tend to think they were working together- hence Durkon's unwillingness to go inside when RC invite him.

Unrelated: the hammer is named Totally Head Obliterating Righteous Smash Hammer or T.H.O.R.S. Hammer for short.

[Mandor]

I admit, I'd not even considered the possibility that Implosion would prevent resurrection.
It makes sense if it really does compress you down into a singularity and not just crush you leaving a puddle of gore, though.

But these are the things I overlook when the last time I played AD&D was with sourcebooks bought in the mid-1980's.
Implosion didn't even exist as a spell back then.
Hell, "cleric spells" only went up to 7th lvl as the highest possible spell level, back then.

So many things I still have to adapt to.

On the other hand, I also don't read this with any expectation that it formally line up with rules.
I just want a good story. [EDIT: and I'm TOTALLY getting one.]

[Sapphire Guard]

"Nae as many as ye..."

Right now, this is my contender for best line in OOTS.

[ZiggyGuy]

Your god won't be happy with you here, Wrong Eye...

And interesting, so either this is a single round and our (main) cleric hasn't rolled his save yet... or this world has a different Implosion than we're used to. Either work for me =P

Also, this proves Implosion in thie context does -not- leave a body behind, as some called before. I was on the other side of that guess, so I was just proved wrong XD

[Arin]

To put my whole 2 copper pieces in on the mechanics debate, I'd assert that Minrah likely had a readied action that went off when Redcloak cast the spell, that Minrah's casting of Thor's Might is an ability from the hammer that can be triggered as part of an attack action, and that Durkon never even had to make the Fortitude save against Implosion.

The pain and battle damage are just DM flavor.

Was that Rich's intent? Who knows. But it's plausible. ;)

On the much more interesting subject on where we're going from here, I... just realized I have no idea. :) I thought I had it all figured out by using Elan's Guide to Narrative Drama, because

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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the MitD Suggestion spell from Xykon only gets to apply if Redcloak turns on him, so it seemed likely that the Order would convince him. But I kinda forgot Redcloak's plan is to turn on Xykon anyway once TDO controls the Gate, so... big wow.

[RMS Oceanic]

#Let the power of Thor smite from hiiigheeeeeer...#