OOTS #1210 - The Discussion Thread

[Turin_19]

Team minrah!

[Elves]

I have yet to read a book with a cliffhanger on the last page of a chapter which is revolved on the first page of the next chapter..

It's one of the more common and cliched things done in mysteries, thrillers, action stories, etc.

[nocoolnamejim]

Saw some speculations in the earlier pages on Minrah's level to cast Thor's Might.

Anyone floated the possibility that the spell might be one that the hammer itself can trigger for it's wielder? Basically that Minrah used an ability of a magic item rather than casting it herself?

[Babale]

.. but it would also be a learning experience for Durkon about listening to his party leader and the burdens of command about how leading yourself to death (as Roy did against Xykon) is easier then leading others to their deaths (as Roy did with Durkon) and it might be nice for Durkon to learn that also

The most ironic part of this statement is that Durkon just got through character arc where he learned to STOP being so passive; you essentially want him to unlearn that lesson....

[dancrilis]

The most ironic part of this statement is that Durkon just got through character arc where he learned to STOP being so passive; you essentially want him to unlearn that lesson....

Not so much unlearn it but instead learn that not every idea is a good idea and that listening to others criticism before acting can be helpful (and it is possible that he did that and discarded the points Roy made as he didn't consider them valid enough), him acting isn't the issue but if he had spoken to Roy again first then Roy might have highlighted the plan to knock out Xykon first and thereby ruin The Plan and so Redcloak would have fewer options and a possibly weaker hand on whatever it was he wanted (or not Roy doesn't have the best track record of listening to people either - although he is getting better).

[Thales]

That's a very well-rendered visual effect for Implosion on Durkon. Sells the crushing and distorting force of the spell rather viscerally. Good job on the Giant for continuing to make the most of the style and medium!

[Peelee]

It's one of the more common and cliched things done in mysteries, thrillers, action stories, etc.

Then please enlighten me. Which specific mysteries, thrillers, action stories, etc.?

[Ruck]

What?
My thinking has nothing to do with her being a woman, she is effectively a follower of Durkon who he brought to a very dangerous situation against the advise of his party leader, I am pretty sure I would feel the exact same way if she was a male character - would you?

"I'm fine with reducing a woman character to a plot device for a male character, because I assume I would be fine with the reverse in some hypothetical situation that is not the situation we are discussing" is not the defense you think it is.

In this case we just disagree (which is fine).
I am thinking of a potential story were a parent has a difficult child and in the 40 minute mark of the movie. episode 4 of a series, the 300 page of a book etc they die to not only save the kid (who they save) but also going back and saving unrelated people afterwards but die in the aftermath of the rescue.
The first section of the work takes the kid from 5 to 25 (when the death occurs) and the remainder of the story takes them to 80, but the pivotal piece in the story is where the parent dies so that others could live and the kid who was always difficult (the main character) dealing with that and how it impacts their life.

Such a story might be complete garbage or a masterpiece renowned through the ages - who knows, but you would effectively have it be a untold story, or it it was then it would not feature a mother in the role of the parent unless maybe the child was a daughter (which could have knock on real world hiring impact if it was a book that then gets made into a movie etc).

Again, if you have to defend your point by inventing complex hypothetical scenarios unrelated to the one we're discussing, it's a weak point.

Durkon doesn't know everything that Redcloak's gotten up to, so I think when he says "na as many as ye" he is referring to all the goblins on the planet who will die as a direct result of Redcloak's refusal to help.

I think that's possible, but Durkon does at least know that Redcloak led the hobgoblin army to battle at Azure City, and probably counts any deaths of goblins there as on him.

When exactly was it indicated that, because of this knowledge, he knew exactly what the MITD was and what its power level is?

Start of Darkness, p.88, panel 6.

So, like I said in the thread for the last page of the comic, I'm pretty sure Redcloak's plan has not been revealed.

What plan are you talking about? Is it a different plan from The Plan?

I'm of the opinion there are several red herrings going on in the story (for example, Odin's Prophecy about Durkon).

Again, what are you talking about and how was Odin's prophecy a red herring?

So do you think Minrah followed Durkon without his knowledge or was Durkon's escape plan? I tend to think they were working together- hence Durkon's unwillingness to go inside when RC invite him.

Unrelated: the hammer is named Totally Head Obliterating Righteous Smash Hammer or T.H.O.R.S. Hammer for short.

Definitely they planned it; panel 4 in #1202 in hindsight seems like they are referring to just that.

Also unrelated, since it's come up a lot this thread and no one's mentioned this yet, I thought we settled on Durkon's new hammer being a Hammer of Thunderbolts.

Anyone else seeing the "Break Down" as a reference to the "Stop. Hammer time!" in the last panel? (MC Hammer, Can't Touch This) Took me a minute, but I genuinely laughed out loud at the subtlety and restraint of the whole thing.

Oooo, I did not, but that's pretty good. The titles here often carry a second meaning, but I hadn't thought of anything beyond the obvious breakdown in negotiations.

[TheNecrocomicon]

As awesome as the dynamic-entry-with-a-divinely-empowered-hammer was, this now worries me that one of them (probably Minrah) isn't making it out of this scrape alive in exchange for that. Or, at least, will overplay their proverbial hand and get captured.

On the other hand, Redcloak's Implosion spell has now clearly fizzled and been lost, so however that happens, it's probably due to something else that doesn't make someone implode into oblivion. Still, levels being what they are, Redcloak probably retains enough power to smoke both Durkon and Minrah without much problem if the rest of the Order doesn't arrive and start the big ol' battle much earlier than would be narratively expected.

[Fyraltari]

Sure. But the SG would need to do its part as well. Or are the people that went around slaughtering villages blameless?

They're dead, though.

In order for it to be a strawman I would have take your point, misrepresent it and then attack that misrepresentation to claim some sort of 'victory' - I don't see how I have done any of that.


So perhaps I have missed your point, my assumption was you had no interest in stories dealing with the survivors (which is fine), I thought this based on the following (which I responded to):

You've acted as if my position were "It's sexist to kill a female character in a way that has an impact on a male character therefore it should never happen", when my position is "Killing a female character with her own arc solely to give motivation to a male character as opposed to it being the conclusion of her own narrative arc reduces her to a plot device in service to the male character's story, which is a problem because there is a whole history of women being considered as having value only in relation to men."

Perhaps the issue is I don't know what you mean by spearholder (I assumed you meant some virtual randomer in the background but not an important character).

Spearholder is a term from classical theater, it refers to a character who is only there to fill the scene a little (in tragedies they are often soldiers escorting the more important characters hence the name) and is lucky to have a line or two. In a broader sense it refers to the vast massof individuals in a story who aren't so much a character as a function : the fleeing civilian, the prison guard, the dead mom, etc.

We should've seen it coming.

Not to toot my own horn but a lot of people saw it coming, ever since Minrah and durkon disappeared from the group.

Your god won't be happy with you here, Wrong Eye...

I doubt that.

[dancrilis]

"I'm fine with reducing a woman character to a plot device for a male character, because I assume I would be fine with the reverse in some hypothetical situation that is not the situation we are discussing" is not the defense you think it is.

There is media (which while obviously not a direct translation of the scenario laid out) that does this, for example Alien and Terminator spring to mind everyone except the main character(s) (Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor) exist to die to serve their stories - and both movies are great.

[Ruck]

There is media (which while obviously not a direct translation of the scenario laid out) that does this, for example Alien and Terminator spring to mind everyone except the main character(s) (Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor) exist to die to serve their stories - and both movies are great.

I don't think that accurately describes either of those franchises.

And again, dragging a bunch of unrelated stories into the discussion is merely a way of avoiding discussing your position on this story.

[Fyraltari]

Not so much unlearn it but instead learn that not every idea is a good idea and that listening to others criticism before acting can be helpful (and it is possible that he did that and discarded the points Roy made as he didn't consider them valid enough), him acting isn't the issue but if he had spoken to Roy again first then Roy might have highlighted the plan to knock out Xykon first and thereby ruin The Plan and so Redcloak would have fewer options and a possibly weaker hand on whatever it was he wanted (or not Roy doesn't have the best track record of listening to people either - although he is getting better).

But, he did talk to Roy about it before.

[ZiggyGuy]

I doubt that.

I don't. Isn't Redcloak killing Durkon the same way his god died? Killed during peace talks?
If his god is angry at being killed that way, I don't think he'll be ok with his high priest doing the same thing~

[And before the "he's evil, he won't care" answers, Evil can have standards. And the way he spoke to Jirix, I would say he knows how to play by the rules]

[Lethologica]

Even setting aside any unfortunate implications, the purported lesson Minrah's hypothetical death is supposed to teach Durkon is redundant. All the good character drama is already set up by Durkon going around his team to negotiate with Redcloak, failing (at least for now), almost dying, and harming his team's mission in the process. The only additional purpose Minrah's death would serve is making it easier to browbeat Durkon about how wrong his choice was, which is pointless, crude, and wasteful. Just what is that supposed to contribute to Durkon's character arc?

Unrelated: the hammer is named Totally Head Obliterating Righteous Smash Hammer or T.H.O.R.S. Hammer for short.

For maximum recursion, It's T.H.O.R.S. Hammer, short for T.H.O.R.S. Head-Obliterating Righteous Smash Hammer.

[Lexible]

Folks on the first page or two are discussing how implosion in the strip(s) does not quite tally up with respect to the SRD because it appears to cover multiple rounds of action, and appears to do damage even though Durkon made his save and/or Redcloak's spell fizzled.

However, wind walk does not operate as shown in the strip either: movement with wind walk is either at 10 feet per round (i.e. not what we see Minrah's entrace to be), or is at 600 feet per round with very poor manoeuvrability. Minrah is clearly taking the latter approach, but the transition from cloud form to physical form takes five rounds, which we do not see. But the clincher is that one cannot cast spells while in gaseous form per SRD.

Finally, Thor's might (i.e. Thor-branded righteous might) takes a standard action to cast, and Minrah is not casting it quickened, but is either attacking in the same round as she cast the spell, or is taking two rounds to cast and then attack (contradicting the operation of implosion per SRD).

In short, The Giant is rad for interpreting 3.5e spells in a fictionally narrative, while dispensing with the trappings of 3.5's rules.

[dancrilis]

You've acted as if my position were "It's sexist to kill a female character in a way that has an impact on a male character therefore it should never happen", when my position is "Killing a female character with her own arc solely to give motivation to a male character as opposed to it being the conclusion of her own narrative arc reduces her to a plot device in service to the male character's story, which is a problem because there is a whole history of women being considered as having value only in relation to men."

Ok in that case I just had you wrong.
I still disagree (to an extent*) a realistic story where someone is about to get their life together, get a better job, start their mortgage, raise their kids etc but who dies in an unexpected car crash to suit the story of the spouce, kids, mortgage advisor, boss etc can be fine if done well - and I don't see too much of a difference on that whether the character is a man or a woman.

*subject to me reading you correctly here.

Spearholder is a term from classical theater, it refers to a character who is only there to fill the scene a little (in tragedies they are often soldiers escorting the more important characters hence the name) and is lucky to have a line or two. In a broader sense it refers to the vast massof individuals in a story who aren't so much a character as a function : the fleeing civilian, the prison guard, the dead mom, etc.

Fair enough - I was close enough in meaning then so

I don't think that accurately describes either of those franchises.

Which bit do you disagree with? I am only seeing two elements it could be either I got the main characters wrong (which I can see a case for I suppose), or that the others didn't die to further the story of the mains (or both).

And again, dragging a bunch of unrelated stories into the discussion is merely a way of avoiding discussing your position on this story.

I think I have laid out my position on this story fairly clearly - do you have a specific question?

But, he did talk to Roy about it before.

They talked about one plan which Roy shot down for reasons (good or bad is up to you), rather then fighting for the idea or raising a different method Durkon effectively vetoed Roy's concerns and went on and did what he wanted - now to be clear Durkon has every right to do that and Roy can be very stubborn so he is half justified in avoiding the arguement, but I think he would have been better to push back at Roy and see how the discussion went rather then go behind his back.

[Fyraltari]

I don't. Isn't Redcloak killing Durkon the same way his god died? Killed during peace talks?
If his god is angry at being killed that way, I don't think he'll be ok with his high priest doing the same thing~

[And before the "he's evil, he won't care" answers, Evil can have standards. And the way he spoke to Jirix, I would say he knows how to play by the rules]

The dark One is vengeful, vengeance usually blinds people to their hypocrisy.

Or has Redcloak would put it "Screw you, suckers, it's OUR turn now!"

[Marsala]

I don't. Isn't Redcloak killing Durkon the same way his god died? Killed during peace talks?
If his god is angry at being killed that way, I don't think he'll be ok with his high priest doing the same thing~

[And before the "he's evil, he won't care" answers, Evil can have standards. And the way he spoke to Jirix, I would say he knows how to play by the rules]

It's also possible that the Dark One and Redcloak see it as payback. Well, attempted payback.

[B. Dandelion]

I am glad Durkon survived, although sad that he still suffered horribly. I thought the comic might be an extended scene of him dying in agony but it wasn't quite that bad since he was saved in the end.

But I am very depressed that it reflects every bit as badly on Redcloak as I had thought the worst case scenario would. Everything about the comic points to Redcloak being an absolutely hopeless cause: Redcloak tries to kill Durkon and puts him through excruciating pain, Durkon calls him a murderer of goblins through gritted teeth, and Minrah smashes the negotiating table in the rescue. Durkon effectively got under Redcloak's skin, but that doesn't suggest he managed to successfully plant any seeds of doubt or hope in him that might sprout later. Nor did Durkon's clapback suggest he saw anything in Redcloak worth bothering with in the future. I'm not looking forward to a coming arc where Redcloak sheds all of his remaining sympathetic qualities on the slide to an inevitable karmic death, but this comic sure doesn't point to any outcome other than that one.

It might be less painful in the long run to dispense with all pretense of hope right away rather than drag out the idea that Redcloak might be salvageable only to have it go nowhere, but there's nothing that's going to make me like the actual spectacle of watching a character that we've had over a decade's worth of time invested in become a thoroughly detestable shell of his former self, just at the time when he finally gets to interact with any of the title characters after six full books of encountering them only peripherally. Nor am I really chomping at the bit to see the inevitable emergence of our last-minute Reasonable Goblin Substitute who will be everything Redcloak couldn't. I'll give it a few more comics to see if there's more to this than we've seen or the potential for some other development, but after that...

[Magic Rob]

Interesting - thus begins the discussion on how Implosion works within the universe of The Order of the Stick.

Looks like it functions like the Pathfinder version of Implosion. Or at least, closer to it than the 3.5 version. Concentration, 10 damage per caster level, however the pathfinder version can only affect a creature once, then you have to switch targets. I imagine this one is probably lower damage (5 per caster level maybe?) but can continue to be used on the same target.

[Mr. Demiurge]

So do you think Minrah followed Durkon without his knowledge or was Durkon's escape plan? I tend to think they were working together- hence Durkon's unwillingness to go inside when RC invite him.

Unrelated: the hammer is named Totally Head Obliterating Righteous Smash Hammer or T.H.O.R.S. Hammer for short.

Strongly believe this was his escape plan all along if things went south. The alternative would suggest Durkon is a straight-up fool who makes no contingency plans, since it was always a distinct possibility that Redcloak would respond to the initial overture with violence.

[One Skunk Todd]

Apart from being knocked prone, has RC actually taken any damage? I don’t see any marks on him.

Also, what can he use to stop resurrection? Is that what’s drawing the implosion spell out?

[bunsen_h]

I do not know whether this has been mentioned anywhere, but there is a deep, painful irony on Redcloak's actions here.
Simply put,

Spoiler: SOD

Show

if Durkon had actually died from Redcloak's little gambit here, he would have died the EXACT SAME WAY that the Dark One himself died: peacefully arriving to attempt negotations but viciously murdered in the middle of the peace talks because his opposite number never actually respected him. The only reason he didn't is because he (rightfully) planned for a possible betrayal. I am wondering if that will ever occur to either RD or his god...

Some comment on that would make for a good parting shot from Durkon, if he has the opportunity.

It only takes a round for Xykon to teleport over, and then it'd be game over.

And Minrah has now been very conspicuous. I expect Xykon to appear momentarily.

Darnit, I've been reading old bits, now I can't remember the sequence where he tells someone he's talking to that he had pushed all of his chips onto the table. Grr.

This: O-Chul.

If she hadn't done the thing dramatically, it wouldn't have worked.

Because of something like this.

[Ruck]

I think I have laid out my position on this story fairly clearly - do you have a specific question?

Not a question, so much as a statement.

Whatever you might think about what you might hypothetically argue does and doesn't work in other stories that aren't The Order of the Stick: The fact remains, here, in the Order of the Stick discussion thread, you are arguing that the story would be better if the woman character with her own plot and story was killed in order to serve as a plot point and character growth moment for the man character.

[Fyraltari]

Ok in that case I just had you wrong.
I still disagree (to an extent*) a realistic story where someone is about to get their life together, get a better job, start their mortgage, raise their kids etc but who dies in an unexpected car crash to suit the story of the spouce, kids, mortgage advisor, boss etc can be fine if done well - and I don't see too much of a difference on that whether the character is a man or a woman.

The question is not wether it is done well. Everything can be written well, even the most horrible things. And as I said before the simple presence of the structural element of "female character dies, this is important to the story of male character" is not in itself enough to make the story sexist. The problems are A) this particular combination happens disproportionately and rarely in ways where the sacrifice's story has reached anywhere close to a satsfying conclusion, which is a bad trend and B) In this particular case: Minrah dying so that Roy could give Durkon a lecture about being a team player would definitely be sexist.

They talked about one plan which Roy shot down for reasons (good or bad is up to you), rather then fighting for the idea or raising a different method Durkon effectively vetoed Roy's concerns and went on and did what he wanted - now to be clear Durkon has every right to do that and Roy can be very stubborn so he is half justified in avoiding the arguement, but I think he would have been better to push back at Roy and see how the discussion went rather then go behind his back.

The method is irrelevant. You said that Durkon should have asked for Roy's opinion on contacting Redcloak and listen to what he had to say. He did both. Then he went ahead and did it anyway because he knew he wouldn't convince Roy and felt that he would be betraying Thor's trust if he'd obeyed Roy.

[dancrilis]

Apart from being knocked prone, has RC actually taken any damage? I don’t see any marks on him.

Also, what can he use to stop resurrection? Is that what’s drawing the implosion spell out?

If Minrah used the feat Knock Down then he presumedly took at least 10 damage.

Not a question, so much as a statement.

Whatever you might think about what you might hypothetically argue does and doesn't work in other stories that aren't The Order of the Stick: The fact remains, here, in the Order of the Stick discussion thread, you are arguing that the story would be better if the woman character with her own plot and story was killed in order to serve as a plot point and character growth moment for the man character.

Actually:

Although on consideration Minrah dying and Durkon work of recalling out with her body to raise it would suit me fine for preserving Redcloak as a threat and having Durkon perhaps learn about the burden of leadership and keeping Minrah around (don't know if that would suit you or if you would still think it bad).

Her story does not need to end and still meet what I said I kindof wanted to happen - in fact it help both her and Durkon's story (possibly)

The method is irrelevant. You said that Durkon should have asked for Roy's opinion on contacting Redcloak and listen to what he had to say. He did both. Then he went ahead and did it anyway because he knew he wouldn't convince Roy and felt that he would be betraying Thor's trust if he'd obeyed Roy.

But we the audience know that Roy was taking the Redcloak situation seriously (as when he talked to Julia about it), Durkon doesn't know that and doesn't know that Roy came up with a plan that might help that he was happy with.

[Psyren]

I don't. Isn't Redcloak killing Durkon the same way his god died? Killed during peace talks?
If his god is angry at being killed that way, I don't think he'll be ok with his high priest doing the same thing~

[And before the "he's evil, he won't care" answers, Evil can have standards. And the way he spoke to Jirix, I would say he knows how to play by the rules]

We haven't got much perspective from TDO, but "eye for an eye" doesn't seem like it would be too far outside his wheelhouse.

I am glad Durkon survived, although sad that he still suffered horribly. I thought the comic might be an extended scene of him dying in agony but it wasn't quite that bad since he was saved in the end.

But I am very depressed that it reflects every bit as badly on Redcloak as I had thought the worst case scenario would. Everything about the comic points to Redcloak being an absolutely hopeless cause: Redcloak tries to kill Durkon and puts him through excruciating pain, Durkon calls him a murderer of goblins through gritted teeth, and Minrah smashes the negotiating table in the rescue. Durkon effectively got under Redcloak's skin, but that doesn't suggest he managed to successfully plant any seeds of doubt or hope in him that might sprout later. Nor did Durkon's clapback suggest he saw anything in Redcloak worth bothering with in the future. I'm not looking forward to a coming arc where Redcloak sheds all of his remaining sympathetic qualities on the slide to an inevitable karmic death, but this comic sure doesn't point to any outcome other than that one.

It might be less painful in the long run to dispense with all pretense of hope right away rather than drag out the idea that Redcloak might be salvageable only to have it go nowhere, but there's nothing that's going to make me like the actual spectacle of watching a character that we've had over a decade's worth of time invested in become a thoroughly detestable shell of his former self, just at the time when he finally gets to interact with any of the title characters after six full books of encountering them only peripherally. Nor am I really chomping at the bit to see the inevitable emergence of our last-minute Reasonable Goblin Substitute who will be everything Redcloak couldn't. I'll give it a few more comics to see if there's more to this than we've seen or the potential for some other development, but after that...

I understand your frustration as I was empathizing with Redcloak too. But it's not over yet. I don't think he'll survive any of this, but hell if Belkar of all people can realize what a jackass he's been (even if too late to save himself from karma), there's hope RC can do the same.

I still maintain that Minrah's quote about clerics changing their minds was foreshadowing.

Also, what can he use to stop resurrection? Is that what’s drawing the implosion spell out?

RAW Implosion is VERY unclear on what happens to the remains of the creature it kills or what state they're in. The Giant has evidently ruled that it doesn't leave any. Redcloak's statement ("implode into oblivion") supports this ruling.

[Rrmcklin]

Do you regard panel 11 as bad, because her death obviously went on to give motivation to Ian and resulted in him moving to the desert to make her proud (per the rest of that strip).

By putting woman on the 'can't be killed to advance the story of another' pedestal it effectively removes a whole load of stories about the impact of woman in the lives of those around them, for instance heroic sacrifice becomes solely the remit of men in scenarios where the story seeks to examine the impact on the survivors rather then being about the deceased.

Even disregarding the unfortunate implications other people have brought up to you, do you not see why killing a character once, then having them come back and then making a big deal about them coming with the main characters, only to almost immediately die again is just awkward story-telling?

Rich has stated that Minrah has actual specific reasons for being with the Order, if "dying so Durkon can learn a lesson" is what he meant, it'' reduce my faith in him as a writer, I have to say.

[Lethologica]

It might be less painful in the long run to dispense with all pretense of hope right away rather than drag out the idea that Redcloak might be salvageable only to have it go nowhere, but there's nothing that's going to make me like the actual spectacle of watching a character that we've had over a decade's worth of time invested in become a thoroughly detestable shell of his former self, just at the time when he finally gets to interact with any of the title characters after six full books of encountering them only peripherally. Nor am I really chomping at the bit to see the inevitable emergence of our last-minute Reasonable Goblin Substitute who will be everything Redcloak couldn't. I'll give it a few more comics to see if there's more to this than we've seen or the potential for some other development, but after that...

It might help to know that there's roughly zero chance of your predictions coming to fruition.

This behavior is a roughly straight-line continuation of Redcloak's character, which is the expected result of an initial confrontation. It in no way precludes Redcloak being part of the solution, whether or not that includes some form of personal redemption for him.

And the plain fact is that there are no substitutes for Redcloak. There's no one else who can participate in Thor's ritual. It's going to be Redcloak staring down the barrel of that choice. Count on it.