Treantmonk's Tank: Ancestral Guardian / Echo Knight / War Wizard

[Wasp]

Hi everyone

after the extensive discussion about Treantmonk's Monk analysis here and seeing his recent video on his tank or guardian built, I was wondering what people here think of that character.

Link to the video here and link to the character sheet here.

The build is essentially a Variant Human Ancestral Guardian 9 / Echo Knight 4 / War Wizard 7 with Resilient (Wisdom), Lucky and later Great Weapon Master, that tries to be an effective tank (and does not ignore the need to succeed in saving throws to fulfill that role).

Progression is:
1-6: Barbarian (Ancestral Guardian) - 6 Resilient (Wisdom), Lucky
7-10: Fighter (Echo Knight) 4
11-14 Wizard (School of War) 4
15-17: AG 9
18-20 WW 7

Starting Stats are:
STR 15+1
DEX 14
CON 13+1
INT 13
WIS 9
CHA 8

What do you think? I find it very interesting but the War Wizard is a real curveball for me...

Edit: Replaced "the ultimate tank" with "an effective tank"

[MaxWilson]

Hi everyone

after the extensive discussion about Treantmonk's Monk analysis here and seeing his recent video on his tank or guardian built, I was wondering what people here think of that character.

Link to the video here and link to the character sheet here.

The build is essentially a Variant Human Ancestral Guardian 9 / Echo Knight 4 / War Wizard 7 with Resilient (Wisdom), Lucky and later Great Weapon Master, that tries to be the "ultimate" tank (and does not ignore the need to succeed in saving throws to fulfill that role).

Progression is:
1-6: Barbarian (Ancestral Guardian) - 6 Resilient (Wisdom), Lucky
7-10: Fighter (Echo Knight) 4
11-14 Wizard (School of War) 4
15-17: AG 9
18-20 WW 7

Starting Stats are:
STR 15+1
DEX 14
CON 13+1
INT 13
WIS 9
CHA 8

What do you think? I find it very interesting but the War Wizard is a real curveball for me...

First of all, THANK YOU SO MUCH for summarizing so that I don't have to watch the video!

Secondly, Resilient doesn't actually do that much to help saves, especially when your base stat is low. I actually think it's a mistake to take Resilient (Wis) before Lucky for that reason--Lucky can have a HUGE impact on survivability in Tier 1, much bigger than the +3 to Wis saves you'll get out of Resilient (Wis), especially since Wisdom saves at low level aren't common compared to physical attacks. Lucky can cancel crits, sometimes turn hits into misses or saving throw failures into success, boost initiative when you roll low (which is somewhat akin to an Action Surge), only three times per day it's true but in Tier 1 Resilient (Wis) is going to turn failure into success far less than three times per day.

GWM will come online around level 10 when you get Echo Knight 4, but there's tension there with Ancestral Guardian's shtick: GWM wants to -5/+10 for extra damage against most targets, but Ancestral Guardian wants a hit (any hit) to afflict the target with ancestor disadvantage/etc. I would think Polearm master to be a better choice for this build, although an even better choice might be to just rely on mobility and ranged weaponry: play an Ancestor Barb 3/Battlemaster 11+/War Wizard 2+ with Sharpshooter, maybe Mobile, maybe Crossbow Expert.

Also melee Ancestor Barbs take a lot of damage--this guy doesn't have a particularly good AC and he's encouraging monsters to go after him, so I hope you're got a superb healer in your party or this guy is going to die a lot.

Overall I wouldn't mind having this guy in the party, because more allies = good due to bounded accuracy, but I don't think it's a particularly strong build. If you're playing at a particularly challenging table, this build won't cut it, and if you're not, any build will cut it.

[Unoriginal]

Hi everyone

after the extensive discussion about Treantmonk's Monk analysis here and seeing his recent video on his tank or guardian built, I was wondering what people here think of that character.

[...]

What do you think? I find it very interesting but the War Wizard is a real curveball for me...

Haven't watched the video, so maybe I'm missing some key explanations, but reading the character sheet: how is this build better at tanking than a regular Fighter Cavalier? Or a regular full Barbarian, even?

To me it seems to be a typical Treantmonk's work: a grandiose title for a result that can't put its money where it's mouth is.

EDIT: So from what I can guess with reading the sheet, the idea is to use the Ancestral Protectors feature to protect the Echo, then the Arcane Deflection feature to protect the character, and then Raging while spells are ongoing.

Still not sure how that would make anyone the "ultimate tank."

[Kane0]

How much better is it than a Pally with a dip into Ancestral Guardian, Battlemaster/Cavalier or both?

[MaxWilson]

EDIT: So from what I can guess with reading the sheet, the idea is to use the Ancestral Protectors feature to protect the Echo, then the Arcane Deflection feature to protect the character, and then Raging while spells are ongoing.

If so that sounds like a terrible use of Ancestral Protectors/Rage. You should use it to protect other PCs from the biggest bad guys, particularly via granting resistance (disadvantage helps but is not enough), but the echo will pop due to almost any hit from anybody and then you have to summon a new one, which gives away your position and makes the real barb a priority target for at least one round (until he can swap places with his next bonus action).

Protecting the echo = futile.
Using the echo as bait and protecting PCs = decent.

On the other hand, it takes forever to come online (level 9), and the fact that Ancestral Guardians doesn't activate on an opportunity attack (and neither does Reckless Attack apply to opportunity attacks) means you can't really get full use out of the echo.

It's an _interesting_ build with synergies I hadn't previously considered, but the whole adds up to less than the sum of its parts. I don't think it works, unlike a Menacing Strike Crossbow Expert Battlemaster 5/Ancestor Barb 3.

[Dork_Forge]

So this looks like it's using the sticky/attack me take on the term tank and to be honest it doesn't seem well suited to it:

-There is zero reason to have Res:Wis from first level for this, Lucky would be much better gained from the off but to be honest looking at the hp total it'd be better off taking Tough.
-On that note, the whole point of this build is to be the target in combat, but it doesn't have the survivability to back that up, especially when using Reckless Attack. This is probably a mix of the mediocre Con and unnecessary Wizard levels.
-The justification for mediocre defenses is probably the use of Echo to turn a Barbarian into a backliner, yeah a Barbarian as a backliner... It takes a single point of damage to destroy the Echo, meaning a creature with multiattack can destroy it and move beyond, or mooks can just flow past or heck they can just ignore the Echo, which is clearly not the actual character and isn't getting the creature anywhere. The only example in the video is a single big enemy, where the Barbarian moves behind the party, the Echo moves in front and none of the party are melee or want to move back (ranged, squishy casters etc.)
-The given strategy is making the character difficult to hit, which is directly counter to the point of the character.

On the Wizard levels:

-Arcane Deflection is a great at-will defensive ability, but that's the main reason for these levels to exist. Going to 7 in Wizard is frankly mind boggling. It's a bunch of unnecessary spellcasting that can't be used within Rage, a whole lot of lost hp and the spells he is after (Mirror Image, Blink) make the character more of a pain to hit, if they're still there at all. At what point does it just become more inconvenient to attack the backliner, Wizard defenses Barbarian than to just attack anyone else at disadvantage (which can even be negated)?
-Whilst it's a great ability, it's spreading stats thin on already one of the MADest classes, 13 Int could have been a 16 Con.

On the Echo Knight:

-I believe this is counter to the poin tof the character and not even difficult to deal with, at worst you'll take an OA to walk past it, that's assuming there's only one enemy and it doesn't just smash it... or that you don't have a melee character in the party at which point they can just swing at them... or assuming the monsters have no range game or flight. That seems like a lot of holes in that ability.
-This strategy is mostly useful assuming the entire party is onboard being part of a Barbarian sandwich with the thinnest slice of bread between them and the monster and the Barbarian winning initiative to actually set this up. If the monster wins initiative... well good luck I guess
-Bonus action heavy, between the need to Rage and Second Wind, taking on the most bonus action heavy Fighter and then basing a strategy entirely around it seems like a lot of eggs in one basket
-This just feels like it should be a Cavalier to be honest, you know the tanky Fighter subclass?

On Methodology:

-The DPR baseline is touched on here (and he makes build decisions based on meeting this baseline, despite damage output not being the point of the character), whilst building this he assumes 8 combats per day with 4 combats per short rest. Meaning that he's assuming he won't be able to rage most of the time, yet the build centers around it to actually do the tanking (Cavalier would have remedied this)
-He makes a lot of assumptions about getting those Wizard spells off before combat starts, including Mirror Image and Blink, spells with 1 minute durations, oh also the Echo will always be available pre combat start so no conflict with Rage there (this isn't that unlilkely give the nature of it, but he even gives an example of where this would fail (getting breathed on by a dragon before the Barbarians turn is up), as a strength for taking Wizard levels but not realising it pokes a hole in his Echo dependency).
-He's very, very concerned about fear effects (yet let his DPR baseline push him to V Human instead of the brave Halfling) and this is the reason he takes Res: Wis at 1st level, despite it being a subpar feat choice at that early in the game


Conclusion:

For most of realistic play this would just handle like a normal Barbarian, likely being outperformed by someone looking to actually optimise a Barbarian in every way and otherwise it would do... adequately? At tanking, assuming that the character can get their spells off in time and doesn't mind not actually being a tank in the intended meaning of the word for at best 50% of the day's combats. It's trying hard to find synergies and justify a Wizard bias in order to be different and stand out, most likely sacrificing actual performance as a result of that.

[Kane0]

TM's build appears to be really reaction heavy too. You have opp attacks, Echo opp attacks, Barb Spirit Shield and War Wiz Deflection even before you start talking feats and spells.

Come to think of it, I remember another 'ultimate tank' on YT which I liked, it's a pretty straightforward Crown Pally + Cavalier fighter. I suppose you could dip some Ancestral Guardian into that, but I also like the sound of a Conquest Pally + BM Fighter combo as an alternative.

[Unoriginal]

-The DPR baseline is touched on here (and he makes build decisions based on meeting this baseline, despite damage output not being the point of the character), whilst building this he assumes 8 combats per day with 4 combats per short rest. Meaning that he's assuming he won't be able to rage most of the time, yet the build centers around it to actually do the tanking (Cavalier would have remedied this)

Oh, that's why this "tank" build had a two-handed weapon rather than a shield? I was wondering about that.

[Fnissalot]

I think it is unclear what part of the tank roll it tries to fulfill and it is very heavy on reactions and would probably only work well against a single target due to the limitations of ancestral guardian and reactions.

Ancestral guardian is good for both, it dissuades smart enemies from going after the squishier backline with ancestral protectors while limiting damage with spirit shield and the resistances from rage, but it is limited to being effective against a single creature.

Echo knight has some interesting uses as a tank as it creates road blocks and drains attacks from the enemy and increases the area you cover with your attacks of opportunity which can cause roadblocks if used with sentinel. I would probably have taken a reach weapon and sentinel over GWM and a greatsword. But it misses Shadow Martyr which I would have preferred to have, even if it is only once per rest. This as well loses any effect it has, once your reaction is spent.

War wizard is in this case mostly to increase your own survivability and will in most scenarios hamper your possibility to do the rest. The reasons for arcane deflection seems to be to avoid save or suck spells which will help sometimes but you will likely already have used your reaction to help your allies. Absorb Elements is not worth the spell slot since you have Spirit Shield which also decreases the damage without resources. False Life, Mirror Image, and Longstrider are multiple turns of setup which all disappear once someone casts dispel magic. And your extra reaction will mostly lessen the effects of your other tanking abilities. So much for that. I have a hard time arguing for wasting 7 levels in wizard.

A 12 Barbarian 8 fighter would get 2 more ASIs, Relentless Rage and Shadow Martyr, could increase their wisdom instead of intelligence as they would not need to multiclass wizard, and pick sentinel over GWM.

7 levels of paladin would be less reaction dependent as they have their auras that help tanking and would improve all saves without spending their reactions to do so, so maybe go something like a 12 ancestral barbarian/8 paladin(ancient or redemption?, or a leonin conquest paladin?)

A leonin 11 ancestral barbarian/9 conquest paladin has 2 AoE fears (channel divinity + daunting roar) that stops everything on a failed save in 10ft from moving, and has overall better saves due to aura of protection which also benefits allies while still being able to use its reaction on ancestral barbarian stuff. And you have spells that actually helps you tank, once your rages are spent.

[MaxWilson]

What name would be appropriate for this build if Treantmonk got off the hype train and just named it for what it was actually designed to do?

"Now You See Me"?
"Remote Control Ancestor Barb"?

What is the core value proposition here that explains why this build isn't simply e.g. Ancestor Barb 3/War Wizard 2/Moon Druid X?

[Kane0]

Well, technically it could be called a rage mage...

[Wasp]

Looking back I don't know if Treantmonk himself spoke about this being an "ultimate" tank - this may have come just from my mind as the video title call it a guardian build. Apologies for that!

[Unoriginal]

What name would be appropriate for this build if Treantmonk got off the hype train and just named it for what it was actually designed to do?

I'm not sure what it's actually designed to do

Even with the hype train, a better name for it would be "the Work of an Enemy Stand".

[Merudo]

If so that sounds like a terrible use of Ancestral Protectors/Rage. You should use it to protect other PCs from the biggest bad guys, particularly via granting resistance (disadvantage helps but is not enough), but the echo will pop due to almost any hit from anybody and then you have to summon a new one, which gives away your position and makes the real barb a priority target for at least one round (until he can swap places with his next bonus action).

Protecting the echo = futile.
Using the echo as bait and protecting PCs = decent.

I'm not sure what it's actually designed to do

Even with the hype train, a better name for it would be "the Work of an Enemy Stand".

Treantmonk describes the ideal scenario for his "Guardian" build at 29:50 of his video.

The Ancestral Barbarian 6 / Echo Knight 3 recklessly attacks the big bad monster with his echo before retreating behind the party. The big bad monster then has to move around the whole party taking multiple OAs (including one from the echo), or attacks the party at disadvantage and for half the damage.

Of course, this "tank" build falls apart the minute you are not facing a single big bad monster, or the big bad monster is not relying on melee attack rolls to do damage...

I appreciate the JoJo reference btw.

[Unoriginal]

Treantmonk describes the ideal scenario for his "Guardian" build at 29:50 of his video.

The Ancestral Barbarian 6 / Echo Knight 3 recklessly attacks the big bad monster with his echo before retreating behind the party. The big bad monster then has to move around the whole party taking multiple OAs (including one from the echo), or attacks the party at disadvantage and for half the damage.

Of course, this "tank" build falls apart the minute you are not facing a single big bad monster, or the big bad monster is not relying on melee attack rolls to do damage...

I appreciate the JoJo reference btw.

Ah, yes, the best position for a guardian: with the whole party between you and the big monster.

Might as well call this build Brave Sir Robin.

Of course, this "tank" build falls apart the minute you are not facing a single big bad monster, or the big bad monster is not relying on melee attack rolls to do damage...

And if the big bad monster just attacks the Echo and hits, it negates at least 7 levels of this build, as the character is raging and so unable to cast spell. Not to mention it's a melee combatant 30ft from the melee.

No idea how Treantmonk even think it meets "his standards in term of DPS".

And that's not even counting the additional hilarity of the character having to slap themselves to maintain their Rage.

[MrStabby]

So ancestor barabarian and Echo knight is nothing new. I think everyone I know on seing the echo knight thought of either sentinel or ancestral barbarian when they saw this (with the expetion of one person who only picked up the game about 4 weeks prior).

The addition of the wizard... this is where I think it gets interesting. Whether good or bad at least it is non obvious and worth exploring... But I am not impressed.

A wizard dip has a lot going for it - some spells, ritual casting and with a second level some subclass features but this is happening too late game. The party will probably found an alternative way of getting access to a lot of these things by the time you start down the wizard path. The bonus to AC and saves? Yeah, its good - not sure its worth the dip though.

I guess I feel if you party has an arcane caster then they will cover off a lot of the stuff that the wizard levels will provide. If the party doesn't then the interests of the party are probably better served by picking up more wizard levels as a priority. I guess I am just not seeing when this would be optimal? Maybe for solo play or for a small party of up to 3 people?

[JackalTornMoons]

So ancestor barabarian and Echo knight is nothing new. I think everyone I know on seing the echo knight thought of either sentinel or ancestral barbarian when they saw this (with the expetion of one person who only picked up the game about 4 weeks prior).

The addition of the wizard... this is where I think it gets interesting. Whether good or bad at least it is non obvious and worth exploring... But I am not impressed.

A wizard dip has a lot going for it - some spells, ritual casting and with a second level some subclass features but this is happening too late game. The party will probably found an alternative way of getting access to a lot of these things by the time you start down the wizard path. The bonus to AC and saves? Yeah, its good - not sure its worth the dip though.

I guess I feel if you party has an arcane caster then they will cover off a lot of the stuff that the wizard levels will provide. If the party doesn't then the interests of the party are probably better served by picking up more wizard levels as a priority. I guess I am just not seeing when this would be optimal? Maybe for solo play or for a small party of up to 3 people?

I think going Paladin instead of Wizard makes more sense since you'll be standing by your teammates. Auras for everyone!

And if the big bad monster just attacks the Echo and hits, it negates at least 7 levels of this build, as the character is raging and so unable to cast spell. Not to mention it's a melee combatant 30ft from the melee.

No idea how Treantmonk even think it meets "his standards in term of DPS".

And that's not even counting the additional hilarity of the character having to slap themselves to maintain their Rage.

You make a new echo every turn with a bonus action and then attack with your action through the echo to keep rage up. Rage doesn't prevent you from making a new echo.

[MrStabby]

I think going Paladin instead of Wizard makes more sense since you'll be standing by your teammates. Auras for everyone!



You make a new echo every turn with a bonus action and then attack with your action through the echo to keep rage up. Rage doesn't prevent you from making a new echo.

Assuming that you have the same investment of 13 in your tertiary stat, aura of protection is pretty modest. The other auras are a bit more binary though. We are talking really high level that they would come online though.

[MaxWilson]

Ah, yes, the best position for a guardian: with the whole party between you and the big monster.

Might as well call this build Brave Sir Robin.

I love it!

Brave Sir Robin it is.

Note that the echo isn't really adding much of anything here, since Ancestral Guardians doesn't activate on opportunity attacks. You might as well just chuck javelins with a bog-standard Ancestor Barb, which comes online at level 3 instead of 9.

[Merudo]

And if the big bad monster just attacks the Echo and hits, it negates at least 7 levels of this build, as the character is raging and so unable to cast spell. Not to mention it's a melee combatant 30ft from the melee.

Creating a new echo is not a spell, and can be done as a bonus action without expending any resources...

Note that the echo isn't really adding much of anything here, since Ancestral Guardians doesn't activate on opportunity attacks. You might as well just chuck javelins with a bog-standard Ancestor Barb, which comes online at level 3 instead of 9.

If your echo uses melee attacks, it can benefit from Reckless Attack, Rage damage bonus and GWM. Treantmonk is dedicated to beat his self-imposed "baseline damage", so throwing javelins won't do it.

[Unoriginal]

I love it!

Thanks

Note that the echo isn't really adding much of anything here, since Ancestral Guardians doesn't activate on opportunity attacks. You might as well just chuck javelins with a bog-standard Ancestor Barb, which comes online at level 3 instead of 9.

I guess it's to keep melee pressure on the monster in case it doesn't chase after Brave Sir Robin?

Creating a new echo is not a spell, and can be done as a bonus action without expending any resources...

True, I was misremembering.

[Kane0]

I can see the benefits of the echo knight, negating one attack a round and all, but i guess im just not sold on it for some reason. Maybe its the focus on misdirection.

[Unoriginal]

I can see the benefits of the echo knight, negating one attack a round and all, but i guess im just not sold on it for some reason. Maybe its the focus on misdirection.

How long do you think it would it take for most sapient beings to realize the weird ghost thing keeps coming back whenever popped?

I'd say most of them would at least know illusions exist in the world and suspect they're getting bamboozled pretty quick.

[Yunru]

How long do you think it would it take for most sapient beings to realize the weird ghost thing keeps coming back whenever popped?

I'd say most of them would at least know illusions exist in the world and suspect they're getting bamboozled pretty quick.

But what other choices does it have?
Try and reach the Brave Sir Robin?
Try and attack the rest of the party with low chances of success and even lower damage?

[Dork_Forge]

But what other choices does it have?
Try and reach the Brave Sir Robin?
Try and attack the rest of the party with low chances of success and even lower damage?

...Yes? Why would it insist on only dealing with the ghostly thing in fornt of it that keeps coming back? What is it going to do if the monster in question has multiattack?

What's the worst that happens if it just ignores the echo? A single OA that lacks any real teeth, there's just far too many situations where this strategy is completely ineffective.

[Yunru]

...Yes? Why would it insist on only dealing with the ghostly thing in fornt of it that keeps coming back? What is it going to do if the monster in question has multiattack?

What's the worst that happens if it just ignores the echo? A single OA that lacks any real teeth, there's just far too many situations where this strategy is completely ineffective.

No, the worst that happens is it remains completely neutered and takes "a single Oaa that lacks any real teeth".

Edit: I am assuming this is a big bad, because lots of small are better dealt with just being killed.

[MaxWilson]

No, the worst that happens is it remains completely neutered and takes "a single Oaa that lacks any real teeth".

What are you even talking about? The question was what the cost of ignoring the echo is. The echo doesn't even have Sentinel, the Barb's reaction is already busy with Ancestors, the reaction attack doesn't benefit from Reckless or Ancestral Guardians, and the Barb's Strength is only 16 from taking feats instead of ASIs.

The OA does lack any real teeth, and nothing the echo barb is doing prevents the bad guy from e.g. grappling a squishy wizard and flying off with them.

[Yunru]

What are you even talking about? The question was what the cost of ignoring the echo is.

Ummm... No it wasn't. Y'know, since it opened with a question I asked: Even if they ignore the echo, what other options do they have?

The OA does lack any real teeth.

And? My point was the OA isn't the thing doing the tanking.

[Dork_Forge]

No, the worst that happens is it remains completely neutered and takes "a single Oaa that lacks any real teeth".

Edit: I am assuming this is a big bad, because lots of small are better dealt with just being killed.

Except it relies on too much, you have to hit the creature every single turn to impose the effect and if you do burn your reaction on that OA then you can't reduce damage against one of your allies. At the very least with Cavalier instead of Echo Knight, you could try and impose the disadvantage effect on multiple monsters.

[Yunru]

Except it relies on too much

Well yeah, worst cases kinda have to assume the most that can reasonably go wrong will?

At the very least with Cavalier instead of Echo Knight, you could try and impose the disadvantage effect on multiple monsters.

Oh I won't argue there's better builds.