Does it matter if the element of suprise is lost?

[Cadelin]

Roy didn't want Durkon to contact Redcloak as that would give up the element of surprise. The Order's plan (which is effectively Thor's plan) must involve some degree of cooperation from Redcloak and I don't see how ambushing Team Evil, capturing Redcloak and destroying the rest of Team Evil would help.

Assuming Durkon and Minrah escape back to the rest of the party what can Team Evil do then? If they continue to raid the dungeon looking for the gate they know that they are likely to be ambushed either while they are fighting or at some point while they are in a weakened state. The logical thing would therefore be to try and destroy the order before returning to search for the gate.

If Team Evil did try and pursue the order it stops them focusing on their main objective and buys time which allows for more talking/thinking which might actually bring Redcloak round. I guess it comes down to, would you rather fight Xyklon and Redcloak when they are distracted and have used some spells up but working together, or fight Xyklon at full strength with Redcloak either not participating or actually aiding you? I have no idea what MitD would do in any of these theoretical battles.

[ebarde]

Roy while not outright rejecting striking up a deal with Redcloak, knows that it's way too risky to just have that as your main strategy without any sort of levarage or even any insight on how likely it is that Redcloak will take such an offer.

So he wants the element of surprise so he can have all options open, instead of trying to talk to Redcloak and just getting the whole party into a trap.

If I were to guess, Roy's best case scenario here is to take out Xykon so Redcloak has to give up the plan due to not having the resources to pull it off anymore.

[understatement]

Roy didn't want Durkon to contact Redcloak as that would give up the element of surprise. The Order's plan (which is effectively Thor's plan) must involve some degree of cooperation from Redcloak and I don't see how ambushing Team Evil, capturing Redcloak and destroying the rest of Team Evil would help.

The Order (aka Roy's) plan is not the same as Thor's, although they are parallel. Roy, above all else, wants to save the world. That means killing at least one member of the X-RC duo.

Thor's Plan is to seal the rifts, which Redcloak is presumably needed and which doesn't account for Xykon.

In other words, Roy is completely fine with killing Redcloak if need be. Durkon and his god need him alive.

Assuming Durkon and Minrah escape back to the rest of the party what can Team Evil do then? If they continue to raid the dungeon looking for the gate they know that they are likely to be ambushed either while they are fighting or at some point while they are in a weakened state. The logical thing would therefore be to try and destroy the order before returning to search for the gate.

If Team Evil did try and pursue the order it stops them focusing on their main objective and buys time which allows for more talking/thinking which might actually bring Redcloak round. I guess it comes down to, would you rather fight Xyklon and Redcloak when they are distracted and have used some spells up but working together, or fight Xyklon at full strength with Redcloak either not participating or actually aiding you? I have no idea what MitD would do in any of these theoretical battles.

Bolded for emphasis -- by the events of today's strip, it's not happening anytime soon. X and RC, right now, are firmly on 1 side, and now they'll be fully-powered to keep lookout for the Order. TE would wipe the ground with the Stick in rounds.

On the mild plus side, I don' think Redcloak will be sharing any of this diplomacy news with Xykon.

[Windscion]

Losing surprise is a good thing because it makes them less likely to attack at this point.
As understatement noted, the Order is just not up to taking on Team Evil.

[ebarde]

If they can stack up enough advantages in their favor, I can see them taking on Xykon. Especially since the monster in the shadows is a bit of a wild card at this point.

Is it something they can do reliably? No. But generally speaking the order has a good track record of cheesing out a win.

That being said, it's way too early to take on what's essentially the final boss fight of the comic(although I think there'll probably be some sort of twist villain after team evil).

[pearl jam]

I'm in the boat with the people who expect Team Evil to be the final villain with other secondary threats either being resolved beforehand or events progressing in such a way so that they will be resolved through the final confrontation with Team Evil.

[ByzantiumBhuka]

I don' think Redcloak will be sharing any of this diplomacy news with Xykon.

He might not need to. A lich with an inability to sleep and +10 to Listen checks would be likely to hear clerics with raised voices, unless Xykon decided to invest in some +5 Earmuffs of Sound Deflection.

[ebarde]

Tbh it will be pretty funny if the fiends' scheme just unfolds at like halfway through the book cause it's way too overly complicated to be pratical, and they just get dealt with as an afterthought lol

[pearl jam]

It wouldn't surprise me if the Fiends' plot is resolved around halfway through the book in preparation for the final half being the resolution of the main conflict with Team Evil.

Though, if it's handled halfway through before the final resolution of the main conflict, isn't that by definition not an afterthought?

[Potatopeelerkin]

Redcloak will be a lot more likely to come around if his only other option is death. If he still has an epic lich and a good shot at winning, he's not going to listen.

Finding a peaceful solution is often easier when you ladle the violence on first.

[understatement]

He might not need to. A lich with an inability to sleep and +10 to Listen checks would be likely to hear clerics with raised voices, unless Xykon decided to invest in some +5 Earmuffs of Sound Deflection.

That's a funny visual.

I don't think Xykon is nearby, though, or else a) Redcloak would not have risked the whole table business at all and b) X would've came out immediately to turn Durkon into paté. The chaos of a huge screaming Maxrah should draw his attention soon enough.

Redcloak will be a lot more likely to come around if his only other option is death. If he still has an epic lich and a good shot at winning, he's not going to listen.

Finding a peaceful solution is often easier when you ladle the violence on first.

Roy's plan would theoretically work -- kill Xykon, force Redcloak to cast -- but there's the tiny hiccup that the Order isn't capable of taking Team Evil right now.

However, as for the "good shot of winning," there's the key info that Durkon hasn't given Redcloak yet for some reason: TDO's inability to survive to the next world. How Durkon will be able to tell that to Redcloak without instantly getting almost killed again is anyone's guess.

[Malloon]

In my opinion losing the element of surprise is probably a good idea. That means one less summonable creature in Redcloak's arsenal.

[BaronOfHell]

Team Evil faces various "random" (at least, in their eyes) encounters, as explained by RC in panel 9 here: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html

Red Cloak may however be on to the Order being significant, fourth panel here: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html

In other words, Team Evil expects unprepared encounters at any time without specific preparation, because with their power level they don't believe they need to. Now Red Cloak however knows who to expect, so he can actually prepare. Further Red Cloak will not underestimate this opponent, because he has noted the significance.

In other words, control of information is important, but in this instance the Order didn't use this to their advantage. It did however give Red Cloak something to think about, at some point at least, which may end up being much more important in the long run.

[RatElemental]

In my opinion losing the element of surprise is probably a good idea. That means one less summonable creature in Redcloak's arsenal.

... Great, now I need to figure out what the stats of a Surprise Elemental are so I can homebrew it.

[Kruploy]

He might not need to. A lich with an inability to sleep

Hey! In that strip, the Monster says he was hoping real hard that the ugly paladin would escape but it never happened. Also, he is actually surprised it didn't happen.

I see the Monster knew it had actual Wish powers. I didn't catch that foreshadowing when I first read this comic. Interesting.

I wonder how the Monster is going to end up influencing the upcoming conflict.

Ahahahaha. Can't wait.

[hroþila]

Roy didn't want Durkon to contact Redcloak as that would give up the element of surprise. The Order's plan (which is effectively Thor's plan) must involve some degree of cooperation from Redcloak and I don't see how ambushing Team Evil, capturing Redcloak and destroying the rest of Team Evil would help.

I disagree. While I don't think this is what is actually going to happen, I believe that the strategy most likely to succeed a priori would be destroying Xykon, capturing Redcloak and then, with his Plan thoroughly thwarted, attempt to negotiate. By doing that, it would be obvious that it isn't a stalling tactic, it isn't a trap, the Order and Thor have to be genuinely interested in an agreement because otherwise they'd just kill him and destroy the Crimson Mantle. And while Redcloak and the Dark One would still have leverage because the other gods do need them, it wouldn't be a matter of choosing between an agreement and a Plan that hasn't triumphed yet but for which victory is still a very real possibility. Preserving Gobbotopia would likely be Redcloak's main concern at that point.

Defeating Team Evil and destroying Xykon would also remove the obstacle of Redcloak's sunk-cost fallacy (unless he goes completely cuckoo, which I guess is possible? I mean, I think he'll be fine as long as he doesn't have to blame himself personally for the failure of his collaboration with Xykon, but you never know), but this wouldn't be a factor in the Order's calculations.

[The Pilgrim]

... Great, now I need to figure out what the stats of a Surprise Elemental are so I can homebrew it.

I'd tell you to ask the character who has shown more knowledge about elementals in the comic, Redcloak. But since "Surprise" isn't an element present at the Periodic Table, he is not likely to know. And he will probably Implosion you anyway.

[danielxcutter]

Personally, I strongly think that unless MitD can eat Xykon’s Epic Mage Armor or something, the chances of the Order really doing anything to Xykon are pretty much jack. He’s virtually immune to almost any spell V can cast unless they learned Sunburst, the Spellsplinter Maneuver probably won’t even work on him due to undead using Charisma for concentration checks, his level is almost twice Durkon’s so both clerics will probably wiff more than hit, and his DR alone makes the rest of the party practically obsolete.

If I ever DM for anyone here and I try to make my villain that OP without throwing you a few countermeasures, feel free to start an armed uprising.

[tomandtish]

I guess it comes down to, would you rather fight Xyklon and Redcloak when they are distracted and have used some spells up but working together, or fight Xyklon at full strength with Redcloak either not participating or actually aiding you? I have no idea what MitD would do in any of these theoretical battles.

If they can stack up enough advantages in their favor, I can see them taking on Xykon. Especially since the monster in the shadows is a bit of a wild card at this point.

Important to remember that MitD may be limited in what it does....

Spoiler: Start of Darkness spoiler

Show

As far as we know, the spell Xykon cast on him in Start of Darkness to eat Redcloak and spit out the amulet if Redcloak ever betrayed him is still in effect. So MitD may be limited (at least at first) to trying to carry that out.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

the Spellsplinter Maneuver probably won’t even work on him due to undead using Charisma for concentration checks

I don't see how that is "probably". In fact, I'd say that, if anything, it's the other way round: the spellsplinter manouvre probably works on Xykon, given it is already been established to work on both wizards and priests, so it probably works on every form of casting.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

I think it will definitely work in Xykon. How effective it will be against him remains to be seen, though, especially after seeing Durkon just suck it up and still manage to cast his spell that one time.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The Order's plan (which is effectively Thor's plan) must involve some degree of cooperation from Redcloak...

The problem here is, you're assuming the Order has a plan.

I'm not just being snarky (though I'm not not being snarky). The way I see it, the Order has at least two distinct plans: Roy's plan to take out Xykon as quickly as possible, and Durkon's plan to ally with Redcloak first.
(Note that the following tactical analysis is based on what the Order knew before the end of "Not Again". Obviously things have changed, now that negotiations were initiated, failed, and interrupted by a giant dwarf.)


Roy's plan revolves around neutralizing TDO's Plan, thereby showing the gods have no reason to worry about the Snarl and discouraging them from destroying the world. He has two main options: Neutralize Redcloak or neutralize Xykon. (After all, both are required in TDO's ritual.) Neutralizing Redcloak would probably be easier, but Roy thinks that keeping the Snarl locked up for good would be good, so he probably would rather destroy Xykon (even if it means letting his dad get into heaven).
Does this plan have a chance at success? Well, the Order has two high-level spellcasters, two mid-level spellcasters (Elan gets put here because bards don't get as high-level of spells), and a potent magical weapon that's extra-effective against undead. Not just that, but most of those spellcasters are prepared spellcasters, and the Order has pretty good intelligence on Xykon's strengths and weaknesses.
If they maintained the element of surprise, the Order could hit Xykon with a couple high-level spells and possibly a thrown +5 starmetal greatsword before the surprise round ended. If they maintained the strategic initiative (not to be confused with rolled initiative), they could wait until Xykon was in a position with no high-level allies able to easily engage, perhaps aided by having Redcloak ambushed by Haley and anyone else deemed not useful for fighting Xykon when they hear the signal. Those two and the MitD aren't Xykon's only assets in the area, but the Order knows only those members of Team Evil made it to Girard's Gate and has no reason to think that the bugbear tribe they recruited has a high-level sorcerer or something lying around. (I'm sure Oona is great at her job, but the lowest-level member of the Order (aside from Minrah) is estimated to be a minimum of 13th level, with Haley and V being 16th level.)

Meanwhile, Durkon's plan revolves around completing (or at least securing) Thor's plan ASAP and dealing with Xykon after that. Obviously, talking with Redcloak before attacking makes more sense from this perspective.


In either case, working as a team would have been better than splitting the party. The reason that Roy's plan suffered from the split should be self-evidence at this point. As for Durkon's...even if Redcloak didn't think more of a whole-party delegation than just a single dwarf, and even if Durkon expected Redcloak to be honorable enough to not murder him at peace talks, having someone there with more charisma than a troll would probably have made negotiations run more smoothly, even if Redcloak pre-emptively cast zone of truth to negate Haley's Bluff score and Elan wasn't allowed to sing.


...oh, right, the thread had a very specific question.
The answer is yes, because this is 3.5-ish and the Order has multiple powerful spellcasters.

[danielxcutter]

I don't see how that is "probably". In fact, I'd say that, if anything, it's the other way round: the spellsplinter manouvre probably works on Xykon, given it is already been established to work on both wizards and priests, so it probably works on every form of casting.

Grey Wolf

It’s not basically an AMF for fighters either, though. He failed to disrupt Durkon*’s Harm, didn’t he?

The Spellsplinter Maneuver is likely a renamed Mage Slayer feat or a similar one, and those just prevent the caster from casting defensively. Most of the time, it works because Roy hits like a loaded Mechane, but if Durkon*, who probably didn’t have terribly high Charisma, could make the check for Harm, Xykon is entirely capable of making the check for even his epic spells.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It’s not basically an AMF for fighters either, though. He failed to disrupt Durkon*’s Harm, didn’t he?

I don't care what RAW entries it might or might not be like - I care that it works both on living wizards and on undead clerics, and Roy expects it to work on Xykon, therefore it probably will.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

Seems to me you guys are starting off from different definitions of "working". Xykon is likely not mechanically immune to the Spellsplinter Maneuver, so in that sense it will work on him. But we do have reason to question whether the maneuver will consistently succeed in disrupting Xykon's casting.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Seems to me you guys are starting off from different definitions of "working". Xykon is likely not mechanically immune to the Spellsplinter Maneuver, so in that sense it will work on him. But we do have reason to question whether the maneuver will consistently succeed in disrupting Xykon's casting.

Sure, and how did that work out for those insisting that a cleric couldn't possibly be mind-controlled by a vampire?

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

Sure, and how did that work out for those insisting that a cleric couldn't possibly be mind-controlled by a vampire?

Grey Wolf

I don't see how those two things are related.

Anyway, daniel didn't say it "can't possibly work", he said it "probably won't work". Since we already saw it failing against a much less powerful enemy, I think it is a pretty reasonable hypothesis.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't see how those two things are related.

Both involve characters failing to roll what the forum declares to be the most likely roll in a saving throw. Hilgya missing her saving throw is as likely as Xykon failing his, if he really gets one when faced with spellsplinter.

Anyway, daniel didn't say it "can't possibly work", he said it "probably won't work". Since we already saw it failing against a much less powerful enemy, I think it is a pretty reasonable hypothesis.

And I think that after multiple examples of a skill working, a skill Roy acquired explicitly to use on Xykon, it is not. As per V's admonition involving probability, drama, harlots and copper pieces.

Grey Wolf

[danielxcutter]

I mean, it’s probably going to be pivotal for at least one major fight for the sake of the story, and since Roy does have an excellent sword and hits like a freight train made of depleted uranium I won’t say that it has no chance of working on Xykon even on mechanical merits. But even then, the chances are so low I’m not sure if the pivotal moment will be against Xykon or against some other caster.

[Squire Doodad]

Seems to me you guys are starting off from different definitions of "working". Xykon is likely not mechanically immune to the Spellsplinter Maneuver, so in that sense it will work on him. But we do have reason to question whether the maneuver will consistently succeed in disrupting Xykon's casting.

It doesn't even need to be consistent. It just has to successfully interrupt him once or twice, preferably in a dramatic moment followed by a witty one-liner, and then it'll have done its job.

The difference between a living person and a dead person can, in fact, be a single shot of Meteor Swarm, or something more powerful.