Thor's plan may already have fulfilled it's narrative purpose [SPOILERS: SoD]

[BeerMug Paladin]

This is related to circular reasoning predicting how a plot will end based on the tropes it seems to be using. Every story trope has their subversion alternatives. No matter what happens in fiction, there's a trope for it. So the only thing you need to do is look at what fulfills the starter criteria and then pick your favorite result from a dozen or so mutually exclusive tropes. For a work in progress, someone's bound to make the right guess, but until the work is finished, it's just a guess, really.

The best you can do is sort of try to determine what outcome is likely based on the tropes the author tends to use. Or based on statements they've made. I think maybe this is what's being attempted here. I just don't agree with the arguments made so far as they're presented. Further, I think the writing of this story is a bit too unpredictable for me to be entirely confident with my own guesses and I find it somewhat puzzling that someone who's read this much of the story even has the confidence to try presenting their guess in a confident frame. (I thought Sabine was going to eventually end up killing Tarquin a couple books ago. And it's pretty clear that whatever Elan's plan is to eventually defeat Tarquin, it's not that.)

I think it's probably safe to say at this point that Redcloak won't benefit from a karma houdini trope. But I think that's about it as far as safe predictions go (other than Elan's promised happy ending and the associated people that would need to be alive for that).

I want to reiterate that Redcloak contributing to sealing away the Snarl forever and Redcloak being killed (or having other bad things happen to him) as direct consequences of prior villainy are not mutually exclusive events. One of those can happen, then the other can happen. Redcloak eventually being a contributing member to the solution is not mutually exclusive with him getting a bad ending.

[Worldsong]

My position on Redcloak is that he conceivably could go either way at this point. I would prefer that he did change his tune by the end, but I know that's no guarantee of anything. I'm open to arguments both for and against the prospect of him ever changing, although actually persuasive arguments in favor of him dying unredeemed do tend to depress me.

This thread isn't putting any noticeable dent in my mood. The tropes-as-destiny angle seems to misunderstand the entire relationship between tropes and the author. They are tools the storyteller uses to craft the narrative they want, they do not shackle the author to a specific path any more than the author intentionally allows them to. Right now we don't even know all the tropes that the story will use or is using -- some of them will only come into play later, and some of them will have been hidden from us the whole time, perhaps even disguised as other tropes. If the Giant doesn't want us to know Redcloak's ultimate destiny then we just don't know it, and TV Tropes can't tell us the future because it's not an actual portal to the occult. The argument is also extremely motivated and dogmatic, like it started with a premise that Redcloak dying unredeemed is the better (and more "conventional") story and then tries to argue backwards from there that the existence of tropes somehow proves it. Sure there are tropes about villains being reformed, but those don't count because... well because it wouldn't be a good story if he were redeemed, apparently. It's entirely circular logic.

I have noticed that one trope has featured prominently in the Pilgrim's reasoning without ever having been stated outright: the Moral Event Horizon. The trope is about a person committing an act so evil, so vile and despicable, that they forever forfeit the idea of redemption, and Redcloak's actions at the end of SoD are being argued to match that description.

Having spent an unfortunate amount of time on TV Tropes and its forums, I recognize that trope as being among the more "troublesome" ones for editing because it invites endless arguments. It's a "YMMV" / subjective trope that can sometimes be invoked intentionally by a work -- but far more often than not, examples listed are just moments that fans have individually selected as being the "worst" thing a character has ever done. For example, Xykon has a listing, and is even the page image on the webcomics subpage, indicating that Xykon went over the Moral Event Horizon in comic #448. This is obviously silly, as Xykon wasn't any more redeemable prior to that moment than he was afterward. It simply registers the level of outrage readers felt at the time.

I am doubtful that the Giant has intentionally used the "Moral Event Horizon" on Xykon or on anyone. There are moments that are identified as being particularly heinous, e.g. Familicide. But the notion that a character can commit a deed so vile that it puts them beyond redemption feels very much out-of-step with the message the comic overall promotes. (e.g. Roy's conversation with Vaarsuvius or Durkon's "better days".) In OOTS, it's not about the evilness of the action that damns a person as "unredeemable", it's their willingness or unwillingness to acknowledge that they've done wrong. All the heroes at this point are repentant to some degree or other, and regret having caused harm. Most of the villains are totally unrepentant, and either don't care or relish in the suffering they've inflicted. Redcloak, like Miko, is unrepentant, but in denial about being responsible for suffering. They are the edge cases that might be capable of redemption if they ever accepted culpability. For Miko we'll never really know if she would have reformed if she had lived. Redcloak is still alive, so he has time yet to reform... or to become worse.

Redcloak's actions at the end of Start of Darkness are presented as especially damning. It is the moment he fully became "Redcloak". However... the person who specifically makes the argument that he lacks all capacity to come back from that moment is Xykon, and even he doesn't tie it to the move having been too intrinsically evil to come back from, he ties it to Redcloak's enduring cowardice and inability to admit the truth to himself. Maybe we should be skeptical of the Big Bad's assessment of people's ability to become better versions of themselves. I have seen some people say that Xykon is a more respectable or likable villain than Redcloak because he is honest about what he is, but surely the narrative isn't cheering him on in the moment he calls Redcloak his bitch. Xykon comes off as utterly hateful, especially since he intentionally let things go the way they did so that he could have some "insurance" on Redcloak's behavior. I think having Xykon ultimately proved WRONG about what Redcloak is capable of would be more satisfying than that moment just being the part of the story where he elaborates to the audience exactly how much Redcloak sucks and why.

Anyway so I'm still on the fence about Redcloak. Maybe we don't need a villain redemption story, maybe he will go out as a tragic villain initially created by circumstance but led to complete ruin through character flaws. But I'm not convinced that's the only good story that could come from his character or that the mere invocation of tropes proves anything.

I just wish I could upvote this post.

[The Pilgrim]

I have noticed that one trope has featured prominently in the Pilgrim's reasoning without ever having been stated outright: the Moral Event Horizon. The trope is about a person committing an act so evil, so vile and despicable, that they forever forfeit the idea of redemption, and Redcloak's actions at the end of SoD are being argued to match that description.

Just to clear any doubts, I'll state that I'm not a member of the Church of Righteous Observance of TV Tropes. My reasoning comes from the narrative devices actually used by The Giant in the comic, not from those featured in the TV Tropes webpage. (In fact, if I based my reasoning on the TV Tropes, I wouldn't be capable of writting here at all, given that entering the TV Tropes ensares people into endless hours of trope-surfing, and I don't have enough spare time to do that and write here).

The Giant did state that one of his favorite narrative tricks is to present a villain as civic, then making him commit an outstanding act of villany out of the blue that shocks both the characters and the readers. Examples in-comic are scenes like Tarquin burning the slaves, Malack's "perhaps I should make more children", or, perhaps the oldest example in-comic, Nale stabbing Elan.

Up to date, Redcloak has been lacking those kinds of "evil for the luz" scenes. Perhaps the closest one is when he fed the hobgoblins to the monster guarding Xykon's tower. But still, he realized later that he was turning into Xykon, and has made a deliberate effort to not behave like him. On that regard, Redcloak, up to date, is a different kind of antagonist than Xykon or Tarquin. That's why Xykon scorns him as "little league" compared to himself. And not without reason. (Though I must say that his method to break the negotiations with Durkon is a good step towards Big Bad Evil's proper behaviour).

My previous invocation of the "Moral Event Horizon" was related to my relative astonishment at the perception that some people are very eager to see Redcloak "redeemed" and getting a happy ending despite he being a kinslayer and having done thus far nothing to earn a redemption.

Regarding Redcloak's fate, I've been leaning towards the "redemption trough final sacrifice" up until the last scene. That's because Redcloak did develope a rather strong emotional attatchment to Gobbotopia, so I thought that a sentiment to spare Gobbotopia from destruction might cause him a final self-sacrificing redemptive action. However, the implosive outcome of the negotiations with Durkon denote that he's so deep into his sunken cost fallacy that not even the prospect of getting Gobbotopia destroyed is enough to make him consider quitting The Plan.

Redcloak has been tempted by Durkon to quit The Plan in favor of Gobbotopia, and he has rejected the tempation, implosively. That's why I'm now more inclined to think that Redcloak is bound to go all Captain Ahab down to the end.

[Lord Raziere]

Well my logic is less tropey and more about what makes sense and has been set up:

we know that we need:
1- a cleric who can cast a 9th level spell
2- this cleric needs to have a god with a different quiddity than the ones that have existed for long, a new one
3-the Snarl has to be sealed away very soon by the gods estimates of the situation, it has to be now, or the world's done

who is set up for to be this person? Redcloak. for Redcloak to do this would mean him changing sides in some manner

now one could hypothesize there is some subversion coming, that there might be someone else to suddenly come in and fulfill the role while Redcloak dies and get his comeuppance. But here is the problem: who? you can't just pull some random cleric out of nowhere to do that after this entire story has been done, thats deus ex machina. you have to set it up so that it makes sense within we know of the story and what characters have been participating in it.

so unless you can come up with some other character who has the spell slots and a new quiddity that has been introduced sometime in this story and explain how they would logically get there to help....its not happening. (like unless the MitD is some incredibly powerful and obscure goblin with divine powers who can draw upon the quiddity of the Dark One, there is simply no way. and I doubt that is going to be the reveal)

now its possible that we get some dramatic point where Redcloak finally decides to use his power to seal the Snarl, then dies right after, goes to the afterlife, and the Dark One rears up in anger that he dared to betray him this one time.....but then its possible Thor will come along and say "Hey, Redcloak nice job, I'm ready to open negotiations with the goblins, how equal do you want them to be?" and The Dark One glares at Redcloak and goes "....okay you get a pass for disobeying this one time" and that will be that. again, the Dark One has a bias. he is the goblin god made by goblins, for goblins. he is the guy Redcloak will be sent to when he dies. and Redcloak has a very good track record of following his gods plan and if the one time he doesn't it gets him good results well......its not likely for his god to punish him for that. the DnD afterlife is not a fair system of rewards and punishment. like even if Redcloak is cast out of his gods afterlife and is sent to the hells.....the devils will be like
"why hello Redcloak, nice work you've done here, your a real go-getter for our Lawful Evil interests and we'd like to give you a job! We at the IFCC would like to introduce you to our Mortal Oppression Plan where you will get to oppress all those humans you hate so much and while your at it get vengeance on your god for daring to reject your efforts to help!"
"All available for the price of one eternal soul!"
"You'll Show Them! You'll Show Them All!™"
or something like that. if they fast-talk someone as logical as V into doing something horrible, Redcloak is not going to stand a chance in the state he will be in. if they pull off the soul splice, who knows what else they can do?

meaning the chances of him actually getting punished if he dies is low. there are too many divine entities who don't obey our morality surrounding him to say that him dying is a proper punishment, and redemption isn't exactly a soft happy thing. its hard. its facing everything wrong you've done and be willing to say that you have to try to make up for it, possibly for your entire life. its willing to say that the person you are has been so wrong that the shame and regret you feel for it are completely legitimate, and that admitting that one is wrong is only the first step of a very long journey, one this comic won't have time to tell. But at the same time that long hard journey can't occur if some goblin deity rewards him for truly putting his people first and giving him goblin heaven or if devils coax him into being some devil spirit thing to enact his revenge in some manner.

Redcloak dying simply doesn't lead to him logically being punished as a villain even if that is what he deserves.

Redcloak living on the other hand? Well. Again, just because he is alive and willing to change doesn't mean people will be happy with him. Gobbotopia could be told about his attempt to destroy the world for the Dark One's plan. Gobbotopia could legit charge him with treason to destroy Gobbotopia, and imprison him for the rest of his days. whats a more poetic way to punish him than to make sure that his own nation he built imprisons him and builds up a better world for goblins without him? Basically him living has more logical ways of punishing him than not, while him dying has a very significant possibility where he just gets off Scott-free enjoying goblin heaven for all that he has done. I don't think the Giant is keen on that, and The Dark One punishing Redcloak for succeeding on the technical end goal they wanted because its not the method intended.....doesn't really make any sense to be honest. Redcloak has done a lot of horrible things including to other goblins and not lost his favor, why would doing the thing that saves the goblins and opens up a path for their equality do that when all those dead hobgoblins didn't?

Its less that I hope that Redcloak will be redeemed and more like that I see its the only logical way for certain things to happen give what information about the story we know, how certain characters will act, and how OOTS as a comic handles things. Unless the Giant decides suddenly upend the board with a lot of bad writing at the end that doesn't make sense. Which I don't see happening.

[The Pilgrim]

Well my logic is less tropey and more about what makes sense and has been set up:

we know that we need:
1- a cleric who can cast a 9th level spell
2- this cleric needs to have a god with a different quiddity than the ones that have existed for long, a new one
3-the Snarl has to be sealed away very soon by the gods estimates of the situation, it has to be now, or the world's done

1- Uncertain. Thor just said that "a 9th level spell slot would suffice", as amount of purple quiddity needed. He didn't say that a 9th level spell slot would be compulsory. It's perfectly possible that several lower level slots could be used instead to satisfy the quota. After all, Redcloak might very well be the only cleric in the world capable of 9th level spells, meaning the other three pantheons would lack a channeler if 9th Level Spell Slots were compulsory.

2- True.

3- Nope. Last time the Scribblers were able to stabilize the situation without a 4th Quiddity, the Gates being built much later. While the outcome of TDO collaborating is likely, it doesn't needs to be right now.

Anyway, it doesn't makes much sense that The Giant has set up his own story to force the Heroes let a villain get away scot-free.

now one could hypothesize there is some subversion coming, that there might be someone else to suddenly come in and fulfill the role while Redcloak dies and get his comeuppance. But here is the problem: who?

Gobbotopia is full of Clerics of The Dark One. Oona is also there, and seems to prefer to continue existing rather than die for imaginary future goblins.

Redcloak dying simply doesn't lead to him logically being punished as a villain even if that is what he deserves.

But it rids the goblinoids from his influence. Redcloak is the character who has bring more suffering to the goblinoids in this story, either directly or by proxy (Xykon).

Given his hatred for everything non-goblin, specially humans and PC races, it's unlikely that any sort of relatively peaceful coexistence between goblinoids and non-goblinoids can be achieved while Redcloak remains at the helm of the destiny of the goblinoid peoples.

[Draconi Redfir]

So... i haven't read this entire thread so forgive me if it's been brought up before, buuht...

if we're looking for a 9th level spell

from a god of a separate quiddity

and Redcloak probably won't comply...

...

What about THE Red cloak? The Crimson mantle itself? It's a direct creation of the Dark One himself, and since it can stop aging, grant disease and poison immunity / resistance, share memories and information, and probably tack on a whole bunch of other bonuses, then it's probably pretty powerful right? Maybe even the equivalent of a 9th level spell or higher?

Thor said he needed Recloak to "Channel" his god's purple quiddity into the process of closing the rifts. Maybe it doesn't specifically need to be Redcloak himself who does the channeling. Separate him from the Mantle, and Durkon or V might be able to do it in his stead via the Cloak.

[Peelee]

So... i haven't read this entire thread so forgive me if it's been brought up before, buuht...

if we're looking for a 9th level spell

from a god of a separate quiddity

and Redcloak probably won't comply...

...

What about THE Red cloak? The Crimson mantle itself? It's a direct creation of the Dark One himself, and since it can stop aging, grant disease and poison immunity / resistance, share memories and information, and probably tack on a whole bunch of other bonuses, then it's probably pretty powerful right? Maybe even the equivalent of a 9th level spell or higher?

Thor said he needed Recloak to "Channel" his god's purple quiddity into the process of closing the rifts. Maybe it doesn't specifically need to be Redcloak himself who does the channeling. Separate him from the Mantle, and Durkon or V might be able to do it in his stead via the Cloak.

Not unless the cloak gains sentience.

It's contributing a 9th-level spell slot willingly to a specific ritual that Thor will explain to Durkon later, not just casting any 9th-level spell at any target. Thor would have just said, "Trick him into casting a spell on you," if that was good enough.

[The Pilgrim]

What about THE Red cloak? The Crimson mantle itself? It's a direct creation of the Dark One himself, and since it can stop aging, grant disease and poison immunity / resistance, share memories and information, and probably tack on a whole bunch of other bonuses, then it's probably pretty powerful right? Maybe even the equivalent of a 9th level spell or higher?

That's one of many ways that could allow the Heroes to adress the immediate problem of preventing the Snarl from breaking out right now.

However, it won't solve the problem in the long run, as the amout of quiddity provided by the mantle would be limited, while new rifts will keep opening.

So, even if they adress the immediate crisis, they still need to find some sort of understanding with the goblinoids. Which doesn't means they need to reach an understanding with Redcloak, who seems to be an obstacle for that understanding.

[Draconi Redfir]

Not unless the cloak gains sentience.

that might be for specifically a 9th level spell slot. rules might be different for an inanimate object that Durkon can carry over and channel through to cast.

i mean, unconscious people count as willing for the sake of teleportation. Inanimate objects could count as willing for the sake of rituals. they can't exactly be not-willing.

That's one of many ways that could allow the Heroes to adress the immediate problem of preventing the Snarl from breaking out right now.

However, it won't solve the problem in the long run, as the amout of quiddity provided by the mantle would be limited, while new rifts will keep opening.

So, even if they adress the immediate crisis, they still need to find some sort of understanding with the goblinoids. Which doesn't means they need to reach an understanding with Redcloak, who seems to be an obstacle for that understanding.

Well yeah, but from what Thor described, it looks like this is just to seal all the rifts shut again. New ones will still open in a few hundred to thousand years, but it'll give the world more time. Time for the Dark One to build power to survive to the next world, or time to negotiate with him to maintain this one.

[Peelee]

that might be for specifically a 9th level spell slot. rules might be different for an inanimate object that Durkon can carry over and channel through to cast.

i mean, unconscious people count as willing for the sake of teleportation. Inanimate objects could count as willing for the sake of rituals. they can't exactly be not-willing.

Given that this is a 100% custom ritual designed to work with the plot and themes of the story, I highly doubt the way the ritual works would allow that.

[B. Dandelion]

I just wish I could upvote this post.

Thank you!

Just to clear any doubts, I'll state that I'm not a member of the Church of Righteous Observance of TV Tropes. My reasoning comes from the narrative devices actually used by The Giant in the comic, not from those featured in the TV Tropes webpage. (In fact, if I based my reasoning on the TV Tropes, I wouldn't be capable of writting here at all, given that entering the TV Tropes ensares people into endless hours of trope-surfing, and I don't have enough spare time to do that and write here).

Thanks for the reply, I think I understand your position a bit better now. Sorry if I made any erroneous assumptions about you in particular.

Personally I unironically love TV Tropes, not least since it led me to OOTS. It has been a bit frustrating over the years seeing people here misunderstand it... some who love it for the idea that it will provide a kind of checklist or cheat sheet for readers, and others who hate it for the same misconception. It is not about putting stories into "neat little boxes", as one poster here derided in her sig. For the most part it is just a more pop-culture focused listing of narrative devices, which are, I reiterate, just tools in the hands of a writer.

(It is also very addictive although you can reach the inflection point where you no longer get sucked into rabbit holes because you already know where most of the blue links are going to go before you even hover the mouse over them. It might be a bit worrying if you reach it though. I spend a lot less time there in recent years than I once did... but I did spend a LOT of time there.)

The Giant does willingly shackle himself to certain narrative devices... like Protagonist, Antagonist, Rising Action, Climax, Falling Action... all that stuff we learned about in school. Most good stories (especially ones that are easy to follow) do set some ground rules and abide by them, and OOTS does that. But there aren't really many hard-and-fast narrative laws about redemption, which is a complicated and subjective thing. There are many contradictory takes on the notion. What we know about the rules OOTS has for it comes from the comic itself setting the rules, rather than it abiding by something written down somewhere else... whether that's a textbook, a holy book, or TV Tropes. So we can't easily solve complicated questions about where the comic will go by citing narrative convention -- there's a lot of different conventions! We'll know which one was right about this comic only in retrospect. Right now the Giant wants Redcloak's fate to be a mystery, so it will stay so for the time being because he's the master storyteller.

The Giant did state that one of his favorite narrative tricks is to present a villain as civic, then making him commit an outstanding act of villany out of the blue that shocks both the characters and the readers. Examples in-comic are scenes like Tarquin burning the slaves, Malack's "perhaps I should make more children", or, perhaps the oldest example in-comic, Nale stabbing Elan.

Up to date, Redcloak has been lacking those kinds of "evil for the luz" scenes. Perhaps the closest one is when he fed the hobgoblins to the monster guarding Xykon's tower. But still, he realized later that he was turning into Xykon, and has made a deliberate effort to not behave like him. On that regard, Redcloak, up to date, is a different kind of antagonist than Xykon or Tarquin. That's why Xykon scorns him as "little league" compared to himself. And not without reason. (Though I must say that his method to break the negotiations with Durkon is a good step towards Big Bad Evil's proper behaviour).

I can sort of see it, but I think what has generally distinguished Redcloak isn't so much an outward level of civility as having motivations for doing villainy that are ostensibly noble. He has done some monstrously evil things quite calmly, but it's hard to say there was anything civil about how he treated O-Chul or the Resistance. There's no façade of him not being prone to extreme brutality and cruelty that just got brought down here. It's the motives behind that brutality that got called into question -- and I don't think he's going to take Minah's accusation lying down. That's not something he can just let go, that is core to his beliefs and his identity, and what has sustained him under generally adverse circumstances. I think there definitely is an element here of the Giant reminding us that villains are indeed villains, and Redcloak is very far into his sunk costs... but it's not entirely the same as what we saw with Tarquin.

My previous invocation of the "Moral Event Horizon" was related to my relative astonishment at the perception that some people are very eager to see Redcloak "redeemed" and getting a happy ending despite he being a kinslayer and having done thus far nothing to earn a redemption.

Regarding Redcloak's fate, I've been leaning towards the "redemption trough final sacrifice" up until the last scene. That's because Redcloak did develope a rather strong emotional attatchment to Gobbotopia, so I thought that a sentiment to spare Gobbotopia from destruction might cause him a final self-sacrificing redemptive action. However, the implosive outcome of the negotiations with Durkon denote that he's so deep into his sunken cost fallacy that not even the prospect of getting Gobbotopia destroyed is enough to make him consider quitting The Plan.

Redcloak has been tempted by Durkon to quit The Plan in favor of Gobbotopia, and he has rejected the tempation, implosively. That's why I'm now more inclined to think that Redcloak is bound to go all Captain Ahab down to the end.

I think this is a much better argument for your position than the previous one. I still will argue my side, but you're on much stronger ground arguing directly from the text. You're totally right that he's done nothing so far to earn redemption.

I think the way Durkon's offer was presented precluded Redcloak taking it in any kind of satisfying "redemptive" way. There was no sacrifice involved for him in that proposition. Had he gone along with it, he would have pretty much gotten away with everything and not had to admit wrongdoing -- he could have told himself, like he was saying to Durkon earlier in the conversation, that everything he'd done had been necessary to get to where he was. It would have just been a sensible evil person knowing how to quit when he's ahead.

So it had to go this way instead. Narratively, he couldn't take that offer because if he had he would have walked out of the story as a giant Karma Houdini. Emotionally, he couldn't take it because he's not actually sensible where his own feelings are concerned. He needs for all of his sacrifices to have been "worth it" and no material concessions could ever fill that hole.

I'm waiting for the next comic in particular before I start forming harder opinions on where things will go from here. But I will say I think there's merit to the notion that we needed to see who he really is before there could be any real chance of healing happening. Redcloak could take a hypothetical redemptive path in the future, but it would have to be a true redemptive path, involving serious self-reflection and sacrifice. That wasn't on the table here.


As to the discussion about how they need Redcloak for Thor's plan... I am surprised at how attached people are to Thor's plan. He wants to re-imprison the Snarl within the planet. The same planet that has a planet within it. That he explicitly doesn't know about. Seems like it could be a bad idea. Also the plan is to just keep the Snarl imprisoned under stronger locks, which is kind of MEH. Who is to say a more permanent solution won't present itself? We don't know everything about the Snarl yet. Or the planet within the rift. Or the nature of the purple quiddity! Redcloak specifically is only tied to the incredibly flawed version of the plan that kicks the can down the road for a few centuries before needing to be refreshed. Would it truly be surprising if a new plan emerged that didn't require a 9th-level clerical spell slot specifically?

I WANT Redcloak to be a part of the solution, I really do. The logic that says he HAS to is not as compelling as I would enjoy.

[Draconi Redfir]

Given that this is a 100% custom ritual designed to work with the plot and themes of the story, I highly doubt the way the ritual works would allow that.

idk, personally i feel like it could work with the plot and theme of the story. Thor did say they just need a "Drop" of the purple quiddity, and a drop from a spoon is the same as a drop from the bottle, so i could see them working with an item made directly by TDO himself.

but meh, just a theory i figured was worth mentioning, no need arguing over it.

[Peelee]

idk, personally i feel like it could work with the plot and theme of the story.

G8ven how a major theme and overall plot of the story has been that a group of people are systemically oppressed (that is, it is built into the fabric of the universe), and how the rest of the world now needs the help of the oppressed to save everyone, I cant possibly imagine how "oh nevermind we don't need them at all, status quo FTW!" would possibly be keeping with them.

[Draconi Redfir]

G8ven how a major theme and overall plot of the story has been that a group of people are systemically oppressed (that is, it is built into the fabric of the universe), and how the rest of the world now needs the help of the oppressed to save everyone, I cant possibly imagine how "oh nevermind we don't need them at all, status quo FTW!" would possibly be keeping with them.

Well that's because you're not adding any context to the possibility.

Think of it like this;

At some point in the future, either from current events or further from that, a fight ensues. be it by Xykon, the Order, a brainwashed MitD or some other cause, Redcloak bites it. maybe Xykon leaves because the ritual is impossible now, or maybe he dies too, not important. Everyone starts to freak out because with Redcloak gone, all chances at saving the world go with him. The world will be destroyed, the snarl will get loose, the Dark One will die, and Hell will take ultimate power. Everyone is stressing out and basically saying their goodbyes as every god starts to realize that yeah, there is no point in stalling anymore. Some discussion on making new gates might be had, but decided that it's too late, the rifts are too large to contain, or that Durkon and V aren't powerful enough for it.

Then maybe Oona steps in, i like her, she seems fair and nice. She heard a lot of what Durkon and Redcloak were talking about, she knows that they need some of the Dark One's power to save the world, and she's a bit more rational then Redcloak. She's not keen on the whole "Future goblins who might not exist will have it better" idea, and actually listened when Durkon said there might not even be future Goblins, and that DO probably won't make it to the next world. Maybe she shares the Lore of the Crimson Mantle, how it was created by the Dark One himself, how it was part of what made Redcloak so powerful. With both Redcloak and Xykon dead or gone, she's effectively the highest ranking member of Team Evil around, (MiTD probably reuniting with O-chul through some method, (idk how the things that took him get involved, it's up in the air) and effectively defecting to team Good / neutral) she gives the Order the Crimson Mantle and it's direct tie to TDO to work with to save the world.

Maybe the crimson mantle itself will work just fine and the gods can siphon it's power like one would use a wand or a scroll. In that case, it was because of the information an assistance provided by a Bugbear that this was even possible. The Gods and the Order through some means come to some agreement, possibly with Oona And/or Jirix to begin slowly improving the lives of the Goblinoids, the Gods spreading information to their followers, the Order to their people, and Gobbotopia showing goodwill by releasing the human slaves and engaging in more trade relations with the world.

If the Mantle alone ISN'T enough, then maybe someone else can put it on to channel it's power into re-sealing the rifts. While Durkon and V would be the most obvious choice due to being high-level casters, they both already follow their own gods, so that probably wouldn't help. Plus, the Mantle may only work for Goblinoids. In which case, we again return to Oona and Jirix. They could potentially put it on, and while not being as powerful as Recloak, with the knowledge that the Mantle is itself an artifact of the Dark One, they may be able to channel it's energies directly into the ritual, possibly even destroying or weakening the Cloak in the process. If the Cloak is weakened or destroyed to the point of not being usable in this ritual again, then it would incentiveize more cooperation with the Goblinoids to open up relations with the Dark One. If the Cloak doesn't get weakened or destroyed, then hey you still have the fact that a Goblinoid was still instrumental in saving the entire flippin planet from destruction. Again the Gods, the Order, and the people who learn about it may become more open to the idea of Goblinoids as an idea, Jirix and Oona have both been shown to be pretty reasonable and level-headed individuals, they could lead the way in changing the perception on Goblinoids (and the attitude of Goblinoids as a whole to be slightly less evil) from that moment on, using the extra few hundred / thousand years provided by the closing of the rifts to do this gradually and without any major uproars.

Maybe something like this happens. maybe none of this happens, maybe Redcloak somehow decides to help, maybe the Red Cloak is used instead. i don't know, that's why it's just an idea.

it's only "Status quo FTW!" if we completely drop the story altogether and just assume this all happens on the next page. I'm talking about an actual story taking place here.

besides, thanks to that little talk with Redcloak, as well as with Thor, the Order will already know how this all happened to begin with. They don't seem to be the type to jump back to the status quo knowing there is a problem with it. They'd at least try to get something started to fixing it. Assuming they just sit down and do nothing for the rest of their lives is more absurd then thinking a magical artifact created by a god can't in any way be worked into helping solve a problem that can only be solved by that particular god.

[understatement]

<respectful snip>

The reason Thor singles out Redcloak and not any other goblin is because he (as far as we know) is the only person capable of channeling the potency of spell (9th level) needed for the ritual. The Cloak itself has never been shown to grant spells or even spell levels.

I think this is a much better argument for your position than the previous one. I still will argue my side, but you're on much stronger ground arguing directly from the text. You're totally right that he's done nothing so far to earn redemption.

I think the way Durkon's offer was presented precluded Redcloak taking it in any kind of satisfying "redemptive" way. There was no sacrifice involved for him in that proposition. Had he gone along with it, he would have pretty much gotten away with everything and not had to admit wrongdoing -- he could have told himself, like he was saying to Durkon earlier in the conversation, that everything he'd done had been necessary to get to where he was. It would have just been a sensible evil person knowing how to quit when he's ahead.

So it had to go this way instead. Narratively, he couldn't take that offer because if he had he would have walked out of the story as a giant Karma Houdini. Emotionally, he couldn't take it because he's not actually sensible where his own feelings are concerned. He needs for all of his sacrifices to have been "worth it" and no material concessions could ever fill that hole.

I'm waiting for the next comic in particular before I start forming harder opinions on where things will go from here. But I will say I think there's merit to the notion that we needed to see who he really is before there could be any real chance of healing happening. Redcloak could take a hypothetical redemptive path in the future, but it would have to be a true redemptive path, involving serious self-reflection and sacrifice. That wasn't on the table here.


As to the discussion about how they need Redcloak for Thor's plan... I am surprised at how attached people are to Thor's plan. He wants to re-imprison the Snarl within the planet. The same planet that has a planet within it. That he explicitly doesn't know about. Seems like it could be a bad idea. Also the plan is to just keep the Snarl imprisoned under stronger locks, which is kind of MEH. Who is to say a more permanent solution won't present itself? We don't know everything about the Snarl yet. Or the planet within the rift. Or the nature of the purple quiddity! Redcloak specifically is only tied to the incredibly flawed version of the plan that kicks the can down the road for a few centuries before needing to be refreshed. Would it truly be surprising if a new plan emerged that didn't require a 9th-level clerical spell slot specifically?

I WANT Redcloak to be a part of the solution, I really do. The logic that says he HAS to is not as compelling as I would enjoy.

I'm going to crib off Worldsong and say I wish I could upvote this.

[Draconi Redfir]

The reason Thor singles out Redcloak and not any other goblin is because he (as far as we know) is the only person capable of channeling the potency of spell (9th level) needed for the ritual. The Cloak itself has never been shown to grant spells or even spell levels.

Extended lifespan, extended youth, disease immunity, information depositing, most likely a template, idk if you've read "Start of Darkness" but it makes it pretty clear throughout the book that the Mantle is magical.

Again Thor says he needs some essence of the Dark One's power. the 9th level spell is plan B since The Dark One won't talk to him. if they had something created by the dark one himself (like the Mantle) then they could probably use the divine essence from that in place of the 9th level spell. the spell is not the only method of doing this, we know this for a fact by merit of it being plan B.

Maybe Thor doesn't know that the Cloak itself is magical or an artifact created by TDO himself. it's been well established that Gods are able to keep secrets from one another.

[dancrilis]

... information depositing ...

It is interesting that The Plan changed sometime after the Mantle was created however - and I would wonder if that is because it changed of because the information is not complete and The Dark One has no way of explaining.

Spoiler: SOD

Show

The initial plan was to seize a Rift not a Gate and it seems the Mantle was created before the Gates were.

[Draconi Redfir]

all i'm saying is it's a possibility. One more likely then Banjo and Giggles getting involved at least.

[Worldsong]

all i'm saying is it's a possibility. One more likely then Banjo and Giggles getting involved at least.

To be fair, so far as I remember Giggles has only shown up on one page so far and The Giant has made the statement that a character who's only shown up once is going to play an important role in the last book.

Although if Giggles somehow ends up serving as the source of the fourth quiddity I'm giving up on trying to make sense of the story.

[dancrilis]

To be fair, so far as I remember Giggles has only shown up on one page so far and The Giant has made the statement that a character who's only shown up once is going to play an important role in the last book.

Although if Giggles somehow ends up serving as the source of the fourth quiddity I'm giving up on trying to make sense of the story.

How Giggles could save the world based on established items in the story:
Effectively as soon as the orcs began worshipping Giggles they came into the possession of trade and prosperity (trading good to the Azurite fleet) - as such we can assume that other islands of orcs might have embraced the new religion due to this success, and with a wider community they collectively might have provided the energy for an entity to form in the astral plane ... Giggles, via the whole faith leads substance element that impacts gods (Loki having difficulty telling the truth and Thor being blonde).
With sufficent worship Giggles might reach Demigod status without having been elevated by the existing groups and thereby allow for this new god have a new colour which could be used to seal the rifts.

[Peelee]

Well that's because you're not adding any context to the possibility.

Think of it like this;

At some point in the future, either from current events or further from that, a fight ensues. be it by Xykon, the Order, a brainwashed MitD or some other cause, Redcloak bites it. maybe Xykon leaves because the ritual is impossible now, or maybe he dies too, not important. Everyone starts to freak out because with Redcloak gone, all chances at saving the world go with him. The world will be destroyed, the snarl will get loose, the Dark One will die, and Hell will take ultimate power. Everyone is stressing out and basically saying their goodbyes as every god starts to realize that yeah, there is no point in stalling anymore. Some discussion on making new gates might be had, but decided that it's too late, the rifts are too large to contain, or that Durkon and V aren't powerful enough for it.

Then maybe Oona steps in, i like her, she seems fair and nice. She heard a lot of what Durkon and Redcloak were talking about, she knows that they need some of the Dark One's power to save the world, and she's a bit more rational then Redcloak. She's not keen on the whole "Future goblins who might not exist will have it better" idea, and actually listened when Durkon said there might not even be future Goblins, and that DO probably won't make it to the next world. Maybe she shares the Lore of the Crimson Mantle, how it was created by the Dark One himself, how it was part of what made Redcloak so powerful. With both Redcloak and Xykon dead or gone, she's effectively the highest ranking member of Team Evil around, (MiTD probably reuniting with O-chul through some method, (idk how the things that took him get involved, it's up in the air) and effectively defecting to team Good / neutral) she gives the Order the Crimson Mantle and it's direct tie to TDO to work with to save the world.

Maybe the crimson mantle itself will work just fine and the gods can siphon it's power like one would use a wand or a scroll. In that case, it was because of the information an assistance provided by a Bugbear that this was even possible. The Gods and the Order through some means come to some agreement, possibly with Oona And/or Jirix to begin slowly improving the lives of the Goblinoids, the Gods spreading information to their followers, the Order to their people, and Gobbotopia showing goodwill by releasing the human slaves and engaging in more trade relations with the world.

If the Mantle alone ISN'T enough, then maybe someone else can put it on to channel it's power into re-sealing the rifts. While Durkon and V would be the most obvious choice due to being high-level casters, they both already follow their own gods, so that probably wouldn't help. Plus, the Mantle may only work for Goblinoids. In which case, we again return to Oona and Jirix. They could potentially put it on, and while not being as powerful as Recloak, with the knowledge that the Mantle is itself an artifact of the Dark One, they may be able to channel it's energies directly into the ritual, possibly even destroying or weakening the Cloak in the process. If the Cloak is weakened or destroyed to the point of not being usable in this ritual again, then it would incentiveize more cooperation with the Goblinoids to open up relations with the Dark One. If the Cloak doesn't get weakened or destroyed, then hey you still have the fact that a Goblinoid was still instrumental in saving the entire flippin planet from destruction. Again the Gods, the Order, and the people who learn about it may become more open to the idea of Goblinoids as an idea, Jirix and Oona have both been shown to be pretty reasonable and level-headed individuals, they could lead the way in changing the perception on Goblinoids (and the attitude of Goblinoids as a whole to be slightly less evil) from that moment on, using the extra few hundred / thousand years provided by the closing of the rifts to do this gradually and without any major uproars.

Maybe something like this happens. maybe none of this happens, maybe Redcloak somehow decides to help, maybe the Red Cloak is used instead. i don't know, that's why it's just an idea.

it's only "Status quo FTW!" if we completely drop the story altogether and just assume this all happens on the next page. I'm talking about an actual story taking place here.

besides, thanks to that little talk with Redcloak, as well as with Thor, the Order will already know how this all happened to begin with. They don't seem to be the type to jump back to the status quo knowing there is a problem with it. They'd at least try to get something started to fixing it. Assuming they just sit down and do nothing for the rest of their lives is more absurd then thinking a magical artifact created by a god can't in any way be worked into helping solve a problem that can only be solved by that particular god.

That's totally fair, I agree I hadn't thought of that. However, I would find that largely unsatisfying. Jirix would be a better fit (Oona is too recent and undeveloped for me, despite how much I like her in her current role), and Jirix is too far removed from the whole thing. Xykon is the main villain, but Redcloak has an enormous emotional investment in the story, something that neither Oona nor Jirix can claim.

[understatement]

How Giggles could save the world based on estiblished items in the story:
Effectively as soon as the orcs began worshipping Giggles they came into the possession of trade and prosperity (trading good to the Azurite fleet) - as such we can assume that other islands of orcs might have embraced the new religion due to this success, and with a wider community they collectively might have provided the energy for an entity to form in the astral plane ... Giggles, via the whole faith leads substance element that impacts gods (Loki having difficulty telling the truth and Thor being blonde).
With sufficent worship Giggles might reach Demigod status without having been elevated by the existing groups and thereby allow for this new god have a new colour which could be used to seal the rifts.

The orcs are probably unable to trade with the Azurite fleet, considering they were teleported several hundred miles near the Western continent.

Also, elevating one to full on godhood (demi or not) requires millions and millions of people channeling in passionate faith, worship, and dedication to one's cause.

Also also, Giggles does not have a full-on divine spellcaster that can cast 9th spells.

Also also also, Giggles is a puppet.

[dancrilis]

The orcs are probably unable to trade with the Azurite fleet, considering they were teleported several hundred miles near the Western continent.

The trade has already occured panel 1, they got red dye but we don't know what else they got (or what they gave up), and in panel 2 Hinjo does mention the Twelve Gods have issues with new religions.

Also, elevating one to full on godhood (demi or not) requires millions and millions of people channeling in passionate faith, worship, and dedication to one's cause.

Source?

Also also, Giggles does not have a full-on divine spellcaster that can cast 9th spells.

Seemingly the only reason that Thor needs a cleric is because The Dark One will not communicate to agree to supply his power.

Also also also, Giggles is a puppet.

Giggles the puppet is a puppet - the potential god Giggles who may araise from the worship of the island orcs might very well be a God.

[RatElemental]

I'm going to say that if Giggles or Banjo are in any way instrumental to resolving the snarl situation as anything other than a distraction by Elan, I will go out and buy a hat so that I can then eat it. And also probably lose all respect I ever had for Rich as an author.

[understatement]

The trade has already occured panel 1, they got red dye but we don't know what else they got (or what they gave up), and in panel 2 Hinjo does mention the Twelve Gods have issues with new religions.

I am uncertain how they can continue trading when there's a distance of hundreds and hundreds of miles apart.

Source?

You're right - nowhere does it mention the specific number of a million. However,

Spoiler: the usual SOD

Show

what the Dark One, Dvalin, and the elven gods share in common is a large group of followers, and it is probably much, much more than a single island.

And it's not just the amount of support base: there needs to be a prolonged period of time of fervent dedication. For the Dark One, it was a year.

Seemingly the only reason that Thor needs a cleric is because The Dark One will not communicate to agree to supply his power.

What makes you think Giggles would?

The reason the Dark One has his purple q is because he explicitly rejected all the other gods.

Giggles the puppet is a puppet - the potential god Giggles who may araise from the worship of the island orcs might very well be a God.

A puppet-turned-God being part of the final arcs over a character who the readers have been following over five books and a prequel doesn't have the same dramatic punch to it, y'know?

[dancrilis]

I am uncertain how they can continue trading when there's a distance of hundreds and hundreds of miles apart.

Imagine the Orcs got lots of the (for the region) rare good X from the Azurites - that means that the Orcs have lots of X now, they can then use X to trade with other potential island groups at profit as it is a rare good, they don't need to keep acquiring more X (although that would be good) they can use the X they have to improve their situation.

You're right - nowhere does it mention the specific number of a million. However,

Spoiler: the usual SOD

Show

what the Dark One, Dvalin, and the elven gods share in common is a large group of followers, and it is probably much, much more than a single island.

Does Dvalin have that many - can can you source his numbers, for that matter how many followers does Veldrina's really minor elven goddess have.

And it's not just the amount of support base: there needs to be a prolonged period of time of fervent dedication. For the Dark One, it was a year.

When in that year did they start actively worshiping him as a deity.

What makes you think Giggles would?

Giggles is a god of action.

The reason the Dark One has his purple q is because he explicitly rejected all the other gods.

Source?
Thor mentions that he did it on his own without help - so in theory Giggles could also do it without help.

A puppet-turned-God being part of the final arcs over a character who the readers have been following over five books and a prequel doesn't have the same dramatic punch to it, y'know?

Likely depends on how it is setup.

[understatement]

Imagine the Orcs got lots of the (for the region) rare good X from the Azurites - that means that the Orcs have lots of X now, they can then use X to trade with other potential island groups at profit as it is a rare good, they don't need to keep acquiring more X (although that would be good) they can use the X they have to improve their situation.

Yeah, okay.

Does Dvalin have that many - can can you source his numbers, for that matter how many followers does Veldrina's really minor elven goddess have.

Dvalin was the first king of the dwarves, and Hel earlier mentions that she gains millions of dwarven souls from the bet.

Now, of course, Dvalin could have been a king of a really small group of dwarves who just loved him so much he became a demigod, and Hel could be lying, but you'll have to prove that yourself.

For most of the elven pantheons I'll take their information slightly more dubiously, since the Giant had to retcon elven gods in based on V's comment in DCF, but elven gods are actively sponsored by the Western Pantheon.

When in that year did they start actively worshiping him as a deity.

Nowhere, because I don't think I mentioned that.

Giggles is a god of action.

He is also a puppet.

Source?
Thor mentions that he did it on his own without help - so in theory Giggles could also do it without help.

Does Giggles have millions of followers who spent a significant amount of time (time the Order doesn't have, FYI) committing mass fervent dedication to his cause?

Likely depends on how it is setup.

Weelllllll...

[Worldsong]

I'd blame Draconi for mentioning Giggles but I replied to that so I guess it's my fault as well.

[dancrilis]

Does Giggles have millions of followers who spent a significant amount of time (time the Order doesn't have, FYI) committing mass fervent dedication to his cause?

Not as far as we know - but he is actively worshipped as a god, which The Dark One might not have been, that active worship might make a lot of difference.

We know that Gods are made of ideas (panel 12), and we know that Gods need four things: belief, worship, dedication, souls (panels 5-9).

Now if The Dark One or Dvalin were not actively worshipped as Gods before they became Gods then effectively they likely made the transition on dedication alone (and maybe souls) - Giggles however has at least the first three and possible all four (again depending on what happens do dedicated souls before the god actually exists).
As such it is reasonable (though by no means certain) that Giggles has a much lower threshold to become a god then the others do solely because he is being worshipped as a god rather then as a hero to his people (the way Dvalin or The Dark One might have been).
We would need to know more to be sure on all of this.

I'd blame Draconi for mentioning Giggles but I replied to that so I guess it's my fault as well.

I was merely trying to help you 'make sense of the story' should it go that way - I would be dubious myself if it would take that direction.

[BeerMug Paladin]

With regards to the Crimson Mantle being somehow used to seal the rifts. I notice that most of the books begin with a summary of information that will be important to the plot. Rich hasn't been shy about this kind of thing, even lampshading it when it is inserted into the comic for the sake of new readers or just as a reminder to the audience of what the major plot points are. Sometimes he hides it in dialog, though.

I don't think I've seen a mention of this artifact in the new book and I think if it was going to be instrumental to the resolution of the plot, we'd likely get some exposition about it at some point. We haven't. (So far at least.) We did get a reminder about the Blood Oath and several other things relating to Belkar's character development. Along with the observation that caring for the lives of other people limits strategic options.

Could the Crimson Mantle be used in the resolution? Sure. It's a story, anything could happen. Maybe the Snarl could simply be defeated by using one's finger to plug in the holes (you just gotta poke it in just the right way). The power of an author is infinite in the worlds they create. The question is whether or not the resolution the author chooses is a satisfying one, and I think we'd all agree that the one I suggest here would be rather unsatisfying. Enough so that we're all automatically discounting is as a possibility just because we have confidence in the author. I mean, most of us aren't even considering it as a possibility at all.

Considering the writing I've observed so far, I think if we're to put together discrete elements of the story like a puzzle in order to figure out where the plot is going to head, we're probably best served by primarily considering the information we've had a refresher for in the latest book. I do find Belkar's line "You're lucky I don't need to rest for spells, or you could've doomed us all." to be rather ominous...