Thor's plan may already have fulfilled it's narrative purpose [SPOILERS: SoD]

[The Pilgrim]

I suspect we are about to see him step in as this encounter between two dwarves and a high level goblin cleric closes out ...
Hmm, not sure it scales like that, but I'll leave the answer to that in Giant's hands. Three castings of magic missile don't equal the effect of a lightning bolt, for example.

Well, I don't know how the conversion ratios work, but Thor said that he needed the equivalent of a 9th level spell in quiddity, not a 9th level spell. So I think it's safe to assume that enough lower level spells will do the trick, too.

My point is, if I'm cooking something and the recipe book says I need a jar with half a liter water, I assume it's perfectly valid if I drop it with a 50ml glass, as long as I pour half a liter of water total. Of course, it could be that I have to pour the half a liter all at once, in which case, if I only have water glasses, I will need 5 people with a glass in each hand pouring them at once. (I don't know how much is that in Imperial units. I'm european so I use the metric system. Also I think pints and ounces have different values and correlations in the UK than in America).

[RatElemental]

Hmm, not sure it scales like that, but I'll leave the answer to that in Giant's hands. Three castings of magic missile don't equal the effect of a lightning bolt, for example.

You're right there. It would take 5 1st level slots to reach a roughly equivalent amount of power to one 3rd level slot, according to the ritual rules.

It would take 17 to be roughly equal to a 9th level slot, too, or you could get two 5th level slots, or 3 4th level slots, or 4 3rd level slots and actually have more relative power.

[Peelee]

Well, I don't know how the conversion ratios work, but Thor said that he needed the equivalent of a 9th level spell in quiddity, not a 9th level spell. So I think it's safe to assume that enough lower level spells will do the trick, too.

Given that the Giant specified it's a ritual, no, I do not at all think it's safe to assume lower-level anything will do the trick. It needs to be done by a powerful cleric. A cleric who is powerful enough to cast 9th level spells will be powerful enough. Lower level ones will not be. That's what I understand is the case.

To use your analogy (poorly), the water itself is irrelevant, it's the 1-liter container that's needed.

[Jasdoif]

Given that the Giant specified it's a ritual, no, I do not at all think it's safe to assume lower-level anything will do the trick. It needs to be done by a powerful cleric. A cleric who is powerful enough to cast 9th level spells will be powerful enough. Lower level ones will not be. That's what I understand is the case.

To use your analogy (poorly), the water itself is irrelevant, it's the 1-liter container that's needed.

I think of it like the ritual calls for fresh grape juice, not from concentrate; and using weaker grape juice would require concentrating it first.

[Peelee]

I think of it like the ritual calls for fresh grape juice, not from concentrate; and using weaker grape juice would require concentrating it first.

Or one liter of triple distilled water. Three 1/3L cups of distilled water don't add to 1L triple-distilled. Dang, should have started with that one.

[The Pilgrim]

Would it work if they took triple distilled wine and turned it into water? They are clerics, that's like a cantrip for them.

[KorvinStarmast]

Would it work if they took triple distilled wine and turned it into water?

That's seriously evil, right there. Can you do a quick alignment check?

[Peelee]

Would it work if they took triple distilled wine and turned it into water? They are clerics, that's like a cantrip for them.

They can, but they need to upcast it to a 9th level slot to fit.

[The Pilgrim]

By the way, if a 9th slot is really required... who is going to cast for the other 3 quiddities? Because 17th level clerics are apparently scarce in this world.

I mean, TDO may very well be the sole deity with a 17th Level Cleric in his payroll.

[Jasdoif]

By the way, if a 9th slot is really required... who is going to cast for the other 3 quiddities?

I imagine Thor would have an easy time channeling the Northern pantheon's yellow quiddity. Might be more overhead in getting someone from the Western and Southern pantheons to do the same with their own quiddities; but if they can interact enough to create a world, I don't think this is even out of line.

[Worldsong]

The world is already made out of the other three quiddities. I imagine only the purple quiddity needs to be channelled through a ninth level ritual to add it to the other three.

[The Pilgrim]

I imagine Thor would have an easy time channeling the Northern pantheon's yellow quiddity. Might be more overhead in getting someone from the Western and Southern pantheons to do the same with their own quiddities; but if they can interact enough to create a world, I don't think this is even out of line.

Then TDO can channel also his quiddity without needing specifically a 9th Level Slot. Meaning that Thor only mentioned it as an unit of measurement.

[Peelee]

Then TDO can channel also his quiddity without needing specifically a 9th Level Slot. Meaning that Thor only mentioned it as an unit of measurement.

Indeed. I imagine if TDO didn't melt the emissaries Thor et al have tried to send to him, Redcloak would not be needed. Alas, TDO does, and so Redcloak is.

[Jasdoif]

Then TDO can channel also his quiddity without needing specifically a 9th Level Slot. Meaning that Thor only mentioned it as an unit of measurement.

Thor's inability to communicate with the Dark One is what prompted Mission Durkon-able, if I recall....And come to think of it, is probably why Thor has a ritual that needs the expenditure of a particularly potent spell slot to (presumably) channel the purple quiddity from instead.

[hungrycrow]

Now that I think of it, why is Thor trying to get Redcloak to do the ritual, instead of having Redcloak relay all this to TDO?

[Worldsong]

Indeed. I imagine if TDO didn't melt the emissaries Thor et al have tried to send to him, Redcloak would not be needed. Alas, TDO does, and so Redcloak is.

Thor's inability to communicate with the Dark One is what prompted Mission Durkon-able, if I recall....And come to think of it, is probably why Thor has a ritual that needs the expenditure of a particularly potent spell slot to (presumably) channel the purple quiddity from instead.

Another possibility is that Redcloak is required either way for the ritual in the Material Plane but under the circumstances where Thor could talk to the Dark One directly he'd explain the ritual to the Dark One and Big Purple could then tell Redcloak to perform the ritual.

[dancrilis]

Indeed. I imagine if TDO didn't melt the emissaries Thor et al have tried to send to him, Redcloak would not be needed. Alas, TDO does, and so Redcloak is.

I don't know - I think it is likely that Redcloak will be needed, but if The Giant puts him in the 'not going to help' category I don't think he has written himself into a corner of saying 'and so the world must be destroyed'.

One could make a case that 'the goblins gain equality and safety not based on the actions of one fanatic holding everyone else to ransom but instead on the actions of multiple goblins working together with others to make the world better' may be a better message (if one cares about messaging).

Now that I think of it, why is Thor trying to get Redcloak to do the ritual, instead of having Redcloak relay all this to TDO?

My assumption is that Thor is effectively bypassing The Dark One - possibly to work with him later when the crisis is averted, possibly not as he might be able to drag out the purple for multiple seals over the upcoming centuries and millennia.

[Peelee]

I don't know - I think it is likely that Redcloak will be needed, but if The Giant puts him in the 'not going to help' category I don't think he has written himself into a corner of saying 'and so the world must be destroyed'.

Quite likely. Which is a good reason to believe that Redcloak will probably end up helping. What can I say? I'm an optimist.

[Worldsong]

My assumption is that Thor is effectively bypassing The Dark One - possibly to work with him later when the crisis is averted, possibly not as he might be able to drag out the purple for multiple seals over the upcoming centuries and millennia.

I think that if the sealing of this rift ends up going behind the Dark One's back he's definitely going to need Big Purple's help for the other rifts because once he realizes he's been betrayed by his own high priest the Dark One is going to go on lockdown with his quiddity.

[Jasdoif]

Now that I think of it, why is Thor trying to get Redcloak to do the ritual, instead of having Redcloak relay all this to TDO?

I would guess because communication with the Dark One is still difficult. Even if the Dark One agrees, there's a non-zero possibility that direct interaction could cause a mini-Snarl problem, so it's safer to use Redcloak as a buffer...and in that case, cutting out the middle man and going directly through the Dark One's high priest is a real timesaver. (I imagine Thor expects that Redcloak won't do anything the Dark One would disagree with, but I also don't think Thor is going to question how Durkon gets his cooperation regardless.)

Or if we want to be more cynical, the Dark One's in a position where he could stall on responding personally to buy time for Redcloak to find the Gate, and Thor may not be willing to wait on his compatriots' patience. Redcloak's response is bound to be far more immediate...and as it turned out, implosive.

[dancrilis]

I think that if the sealing of this rift ends up going behind the Dark One's back he's definitely going to need Big Purple's help for the other rifts because once he realizes he's been betrayed by his own high priest the Dark One is going to go on lockdown with his quiddity.

It has been a long time since I had to actually do any chemistry but a drop of something can go a long way if handled correctly - if Thor is thinking 'I get one drop I seal one rift- problem solved' then that is likely not a very good plan, but if he is thinking 'I get one drop I add it to a cup of yellow and I seal potentially hundreds of rifts' then he can close all the current ones and many future ones and in the longer term can wait for The Dark One to come around, while being able to show the other gods that he has everything under control for this world continuing for a few hundred thousand years (an eye blink to most of them).

[The Pilgrim]

That's seriously evil, right there. Can you do a quick alignment check?

I see myself as CN with CG tendencies. Which means my true alignment is probably deeply rooted in CE.

Indeed. I imagine if TDO didn't melt the emissaries Thor et al have tried to send to him, Redcloak would not be needed. Alas, TDO does, and so Redcloak is.

Yes. But I'm in on the opinion that, as others have pointed out above, Thor needs Redcloak as intermediary to get the colaboration of TDO, not as a provider of the quiddity behind TDO's back. It's unlikely he can provide the quiddity if TDO doesn't agrees to it. Therefore, in the event that Redcloak is eliminated, the next High Priest of the Dark one can play the same role, even if he cannot cast 9th level spells.

Of course, Durkon has to keep trying on Redcloak. "I'm going to eliminate your high priests one by one until you agree to colaborate" is not the way to get TDO on board. Definitely not a LG way, at least.

[Worldsong]

It has been a long time since I had to actually do any chemistry but a drop of something can go a long way if handled correctly - if Thor is thinking 'I get one drop I seal one rift- problem solved' then that is likely not a very good plan, but if he is thinking 'I get one drop I add it to a cup of yellow and I seal potentially hundreds of rifts' then he can close all the current ones and many future ones and in the longer term can wait for The Dark One to come around, while being able to show the other gods that he has everything under control for this world continuing for a few hundred thousand years (an eye blink to most of them).

I'm being reminded of homeopathy, which usually is a bad thing.

That said it is entirely possible that you're right and Thor doesn't need the entire drop for one rift, and he just told Durkon to get Redcloak to contribute a 9th spell slot's worth of power so he'd have enough purple quiddity for the other rifts as well. That would actually be quite ingenious from Thor.

EDIT: Although an important question would become how well a god can manipulate a quiddity different from their own. The ritual Redcloak has to perform probably shapes the quiddity the right way to help seal this rift but if Thor can't manipulate purple quiddity I'd also be doubtful that he could preserve the purple quiddity in the right shape to seal other rifts.

[Jasdoif]

Therefore, in the event that Redcloak is eliminated, the next High Priest of the Dark one can play the same role, even if he cannot cast 9th level spells.

Unless they can't because Thor's ritual needs a 9th-level slot, anyway.

[Ruck]

Yeah, yeah... remember that other famous fantasy work about a gritty and grim medieval-themed world that featured a chick riding dragons who was going to fix everything and make the world go right, by burnig alive every bad guy one by one?

Prepare yourself to be disappointed again.

I can't think of a bigger insult to Rich as a writer than comparing him to David Benioff and D.B. Weiss.

[understatement]

I can't think of a bigger insult to Rich as a writer than comparing him to David Benioff and D.B. Weiss.

Lost?

Word count.

[Ruck]

Lost?

Word count.

What about Lost?

[understatement]

What about Lost?

Not really anything. I just thought the Pilgrim's choice in comparing OOTS to a show that ended a "bit" poorly was a strange comparison.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thor's inability to communicate with the Dark One is what prompted Mission Durkon-able,

That got a RL grin out of me. Thanks.

Now that I think of it, why is Thor trying to get Redcloak to do the ritual, instead of having Redcloak relay all this to TDO?

TDO rage quit the private chat group Loki was in. Loki, evil god. If TDO won't even talk to Loki why would anyone expect him to talk to Thor?

What about Lost?

It's a J Geils Band lyric
I musta got lost ...

[Ruck]

Not really anything. I just thought the Pilgrim's choice in comparing OOTS to a show that ended a "bit" poorly was a strange comparison.

I never saw it, so I'm not sure if the comparison would be more or less insulting.