So, why the Gods don't use the Gates to release the Snarl into a pocket dimension?

[mjasghar]

No Rich said it would move to that plane not just reach
The problem with pushing it out to an outer plane is that souls will still be going to that plane and end up getting destroyed
So that will mean extra input in terms of souls and an imbalance which will affect the blood war etc

[Goblin_Priest]

But that's pretty much what The Dark One is intending to do. Blackmail the Gods with the threat of releasing the Snarl into one of their demiplanes in the Astral Plane.

Since Rich Burlew defined his Plan as an "one-time nuke", and not an "one-time mutually assured destruction", I assume that a demiplane can contain the Snarl. Otherwise, once released it would destroy everything related to the Astral Plane, including The Dark One's own demiplane.

The gods live, for the most part anyways, on the outer planes.

It's debatable whether Shojo knew enough about planar cosmology to use the proper terminology. Given the importance of the thing, one can probably safely assume that, yea, he's using the best terms, to the best of his teachers' knowledge anyways. Still, the way he explains it, it kinda sounds like a transitive plane, akin to the ethereal and shadow planes. Coexistent with the material plane. As best as I recall, demiplanes aren't tied to the material plane. Not usually, anyways, not sure if they can be. They are instead usually tied to the astral plane, and sometimes to other transitive planes, like the ethereal plane.

The panels suggest that there's overlap between the snarl's prison and the material plane. However... it doesn't seem to be as strong as the other coexistent planes', if it's even true at all.

Coexistent Planes

If a link between two planes can be created at any point, the two planes are coexistent. These planes overlap each other completely. A coexistent plane can be reached from anywhere on the plane it overlaps. When moving on a coexistent plane, it is often possible to see into or interact with the plane it coexists with.

When ethereal, you can basically see the material plane. They overlap. But when characters have peered into the rifts... they don't see overlapped existence. In Azure City, they saw a planet. In the desert, they saw an ocean. Whatever the rifts lead to, it doesn't seem to be a coexistent prison plane.

The Material Plane

The Material Plane is the center of most cosmologies and defines what is considered normal.

Why did the gods contain the Snarl with the material plane? Well, the material plane is clearly special. Impossible to say if in the OotSverse, this uniqueness is the reason or the result of their choices, though.

The material plane is the origin of souls. At least, the independent self-perpetuating kind of souls. Outer Planes just harvest material plane souls to recycle them. Not sure if elementals count as souls, but if they do, as far as I can tell, they recycle their own lot. Or get batches from material plane sourced elemental souls. No clue.

But the material plane, on the other hand, exports souls, which it generates itself out of nothingness. Two people bang, and, bang!, a new soul arises! And when they die, zoom! The soul is whisked away. Yet the material plane is never starved of souls. It never needs to import inputs to offset these losses. It just yields and yields and yields

So if we bring this back to OotS-verse lore, and the Snarl, then it's fair to posit that, perhaps, the gods chose the material plane as prison because precisely it's uniqueness makes it the only place robust enough to hold the Snarl (we are told mortals are the only ones able to fight the Snarl, better than divine beings anyhow). Or, perhaps, the fact that the material plane holds the snarl is the reason why the material plane is unique, maybe the Snarl is the material plane's fuel. Like how our sun, a massive ball of fire and radiation, fuels life on Earth, without which would be a barren wasteland of rock and ice. The Material plane might just be the location of this "comfort zone", close enough yet far enough from the Snarl to sustain seemingly indefinite soul production. Other potential explanations could lie in the investment costs of creating such an enormous soul factory: the gods may only have enough juice to create one material plane, creating more might be just too much of an investment.

[Tvtyrant]

I was thinking... The Dark One's Plan is to warp a Gate so that He gets the power to shift it to another plane and blackmail the Gods with the threat of releasing the Snarl on the back of one of them.

So, why don't the Gods actually do the same? Warp a Gate, shift it into a pocket dimension, release the Snarl, and forget about it forever and ever?

There are lots of smart readers and only one writer, eventually someone will come up with an easy solution the writer didn't see. I would just assume that the Gods have tried and discarded whatever solutions the plot hasn't dealt with yet, and move on.

Why didn't the eagles take the ring to Mordor is a classic. Because it didn't serve the story and Tolkien didn't think of it. Why didn't the Gods fix the Snarl doing X? Same reasons.

@Goblin_Priest Why didn't the Scouring of the Shire happen? That's one of the most important parts of the story in my opinion.

[The Pilgrim]

Why didn't the eagles take the ring to Mordor is a classic. Because it didn't serve the story and Tolkien didn't think of it. Why didn't the Gods fix the Snarl doing X? Same reasons.

Oh, come on, the Eye of Sauron would have spotted the Giant Eagles in the sky miles away from Mordor. Attempting to use them to give Frodo a lift to Mount Doom would have been like conveying the Ring directly into an interceptor squad of fall-beasts ridden by The Nine.

The Deus ex machina Great Eagles could only fly freely into Mordor after Frodo Gollum put Sauron and his Nazguls out of comission by destroying The MacGuffin One Ring.

[Riftwolf]

My understanding is the Snarl could travel through the Astral Plane into the Gods' realms, but it doesn't know the direction, lacks the focus to search, and the Gods are good at hiding. TDOs plan is basically to drop the Shark straight into the Bathtub, so to speak.
As for why not another dimension, it'd basically amount to making two Material Planes. Maybe they don't have enough thread. Maybe they tried it a few times but the lack of concentration made it unstable. Maybe that's what the planet in the rift is. Maybe it's Maybelline. There's no way to tell.

[RatElemental]

It basically already is in a demiplane made specifically to contain it. It's not like it's physically inside of the planet, the material plane is just "wrapped around" the plane the snarl is in, and it's still managed to chew holes in it.

[Dausuul]

But that's pretty much what The Dark One is intending to do. Blackmail the Gods with the threat of releasing the Snarl into one of their demiplanes in the Astral Plane.

Since Rich Burlew defined his Plan as an "one-time nuke", and not an "one-time mutually assured destruction", I assume that a demiplane can contain the Snarl. Otherwise, once released it would destroy everything related to the Astral Plane, including The Dark One's own demiplane.

We already know that the Dark One's plan is fatally flawed--he lacks the energy reserves to survive to the next world. His knowledge of the Snarl may contain other deadly gaps. He only knows what he's been told by the other evil gods, and they obviously did not tell him everything.

And hairsplitting the difference between a "one-time nuke" and "one-time mutually assured destruction" is some mighty fine hairsplitting. Mutually assured destruction begins with the dropping of a nuke, after all.

[mjasghar]

But it isn’t M A D
Because he can’t destroy all the gods as Rich has said - he can only attack one plane

[RatElemental]

But it isn’t M A D
Because he can’t destroy all the gods as Rich has said - he can only attack one plane

Rich has also said the Snarl can travel through portals, and the other gods might start spamming a bunch of them to TDO's domain after he drops it on someone, so in that sense it really is M.A.D.

[mjasghar]

But in that situation the gods on other planes still survive so again not M A D

[RatElemental]

But in that situation the gods on other planes still survive so again not M A D

M.A.D. only requires the guaranteed destruction of both the target of an attack and its initiator. The rest of the gods are just bystanders in this case.

[mjasghar]

And?
The 2 sides are the Dark One v all the other gods
It’s as simple as having 1 orange and 2 apples
If i take one apple and one orange away there’s only apples left. The apples haven’t been destroyed, the orange has.

[Riftwolf]

And?
The 2 sides are the Dark One v all the other gods
It’s as simple as having 1 orange and 2 apples
If i take one apple and one orange away there’s only apples left. The apples haven’t been destroyed, the orange has.

It's a bit more complicated than that. You have a banana, a strawberry, a blueberry and a grape. The grape can take out one of the others, but in doing so the other two will retaliate and take out the grape. If it does so, that leaves only two fruits for the fruit salad.
If three quiddities are fallible against the Snarl, then two would be far worse. Which would mean the current status quo is unsustainable and the remaining God groups would starve/regress to their pre-material states.
Its still mutually assured destruction, but with two groups being destroyed by the nuclear winter rather than the explosions.

[danielxcutter]

Same pantheon doesn’t mean same home plane you know. Hel lives in Hades and Thor lives in Ysgard or whatever the equivalents are in the OotSverse cosmology.

[mjasghar]

Exactly
He wouldn’t wipe out a whole quiddity
However, the culture might well shift in alignment. The western pantheon definitely seems skewed to the evil side and maybe that’s due to the death of good Greater gods. Maybe that was a factor in them elevating the elven gods.

[The Pilgrim]

Exactly
He wouldn’t wipe out a whole quiddity
However, the culture might well shift in alignment. The western pantheon definitely seems skewed to the evil side and maybe that’s due to the death of good Greater gods. Maybe that was a factor in them elevating the elven gods.

I don't see why the Western Pantheon leans more towards Evil than the rest. Thor shown Marduk, Isthar and I suppose Enlil. Marduk is LN in official sources, Isthar is N and Enlil is supposed to be NG. They have Tiamat and Nergal who are Evil, but the Northern Pantheon has Loki and Hel, and several other Gods who don't look very nice.

People tend to assume the Southern Pantheon leans more to Good due to association with Azure City, but let's not forget that the Azurites were a declining power, and the rising Dragon Empire has "Evil" marked all over it. Maybe in the end Azure City fell because most of the Twelve weren't really paying much attention to it due to lack of attunement with Azure City's official philosophy. According to Thor, Rat was fuirious for the fall of Azure City, but maybe it was because Rat had well developed plans to subvert the Azurites into Evil, with those like Kubota seizing power, or was engineering it's fall to the Dragon Empire, and didn't like the followers of The Dark One stepping in her turf.

[Goblin_Priest]

It basically already is in a demiplane made specifically to contain it. It's not like it's physically inside of the planet, the material plane is just "wrapped around" the plane the snarl is in, and it's still managed to chew holes in it.

Depictions of the rift suggest whatever lies beyond them is not what we have been told it is.

We already know that the Dark One's plan is fatally flawed--he lacks the energy reserves to survive to the next world. His knowledge of the Snarl may contain other deadly gaps. He only knows what he's been told by the other evil gods, and they obviously did not tell him everything.

And hairsplitting the difference between a "one-time nuke" and "one-time mutually assured destruction" is some mighty fine hairsplitting. Mutually assured destruction begins with the dropping of a nuke, after all.

The inability to make it through a world reset is a wrench in TDO's plan. However, the possession of a unique quiddity that the other gods require to seal the Snarl for good is a pretty huge bargaining chip he wasn't even aware he had.

[danielxcutter]

I don't see why the Western Pantheon leans more towards Evil than the rest. Thor shown Marduk, Isthar and I suppose Enlil. Marduk is LN in official sources, Isthar is N and Enlil is supposed to be NG. They have Tiamat and Nergal who are Evil, but the Northern Pantheon has Loki and Hel, and several other Gods who don't look very nice.

People tend to assume the Southern Pantheon leans more to Good due to association with Azure City, but let's not forget that the Azurites were a declining power, and the rising Dragon Empire has "Evil" marked all over it. Maybe in the end Azure City fell because most of the Twelve weren't really paying much attention to it due to lack of attunement with Azure City's official philosophy. According to Thor, Rat was fuirious for the fall of Azure City, but maybe it was because Rat had well developed plans to subvert the Azurites into Evil, with those like Kubota seizing power, or was engineering it's fall to the Dragon Empire, and didn't like the followers of The Dark One stepping in her turf.

...Rat was a she?

[The Pilgrim]

...Rat was a she?

I dunno. In my native language, "rat" is a female noun, so it comes naturally to me to use female pronouns for her. Or him. Or it.

[Peelee]

I dunno. In my native language, "rat" is a female noun, so it comes naturally to me to use female pronouns for her. Or him. Or it.

The second best thing about English is that, by and large, it avoids pointlessly gendering nouns.

The best thing about English is I never had to learn it as a second language.

[dancrilis]

According to Thor, Rat was fuirious for the fall of Azure City

Technically Rat being furious might not be linked to Azure city and might be linked to some of the rest of the Southern Gods not being willing to negotiate.

[Ruck]

People tend to assume the Southern Pantheon leans more to Good due to association with Azure City, but let's not forget that the Azurites were a declining power, and the rising Dragon Empire has "Evil" marked all over it.

[citation needed]

Maybe in the end Azure City fell because most of the Twelve weren't really paying much attention to it due to lack of attunement with Azure City's official philosophy.

The gods can't directly interfere with mortal events. Azure City fell because of a change of leadership and splintering of the noble class coming just as a massive army led by an epic lich sorcerer invaded the city.

According to Thor, Rat was fuirious for the fall of Azure City, but maybe it was because Rat had well developed plans to subvert the Azurites into Evil, with those like Kubota seizing power, or was engineering it's fall to the Dragon Empire, and didn't like the followers of The Dark One stepping in her turf.

Technically Rat being furious might not be linked to Azure city and might be linked to some of the rest of the Southern Gods not being willing to negotiate.

Or it could be the obvious explanation, that Rat is angry that he defended and perhaps even allied with a god whose followers would then later invade and conquer the city that served as the major population base for the Twelve's followers.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, why not both?

[dancrilis]

They have Tiamat and Nergal who are Evil

I am not sure that we have confirmation that Nergal is an Evil God rather then a Neutral God who allows Evil priests (like many neutral gods).

People tend to assume the Southern Pantheon leans more to Good due to association with Azure City, but let's not forget that the Azurites were a declining power, and the rising Dragon Empire has "Evil" marked all over it.

[citation needed]

Spoiler: HTPGHS

Show

Expansionist power.
Generating refugees.
Ruled by an Evil Red Dragon.

Whether is is Evil or not saying that it has Evil markings is probably fair enough.

[The Pilgrim]

I am not sure that we have confirmation that Nergal is an Evil God rather then a Neutral God who allows Evil priests (like many neutral gods).

We don't have official confirmations regarding the alignment of most secondary characters. However Nergal is Evil in the source DnD material. NE if my memory serves.

Of course, The Giant is not constrained by the source material, but I don't see any reason he would need to change Nergal's alignment. Nergal is only relevant to the story as the God of an evil priest with a plan of creating a mass murdering society on His behalf, so I don't see any reason Mr Burlew would need to change His alignment at all.

Besides, perhap the best official confirmation is Malack's ambiguous statement about "neutrality fitting better" to death gods. Given posterior events, it was clearly a way for him to led Durkon into thinking that Nergal and himself aren't that bad, despite them clearly being (Malack, at least).

[dancrilis]

We don't have official confirmations regarding the alignment of most secondary characters. However Nergal is Evil in the source DnD material. NE if my memory serves.

Of course, The Giant is not constrained by the source material, but I don't see any reason he would need to change Nergal's alignment. Nergal is only relevant to the story as the God of an evil priest with a plan of creating a mass murdering society on His behalf, so I don't see any reason Mr Burlew would need to change His alignment at all.

Besides, perhap the best official confirmation is Malack's ambiguous statement about "neutrality fitting better" to death gods. Given posterior events, it was clearly a way for him to led Durkon into thinking that Nergal and himself aren't that bad, despite them clearly being (Malack, at least).

Having tried to look it up I found this.

I feel like at a certain point, Malack would have said to himself, "If I take all of these many and varied precautions and am still destroyed, then it is Nergal's unholy will."

So given that Malack thought Nergal's will was unholy we can likely assume that Malack though he was evil anyway - so yes probably evil (which I will admit is not what I initially assumed).

[Goblin_Priest]

Technically Rat being furious might not be linked to Azure city and might be linked to some of the rest of the Southern Gods not being willing to negotiate.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html

"Rat is apparently furious" is it's own bubble. It comes after "The twelve Gods are similarly split. Some don't want to negotiate with the god responsible for what happened to Azure City."

I had always assumed this was meant as "Rat is furious they conquered Azure City". That said, I now think it could be interpreted various ways. And "what happened to Azure City" could mean not so much the conquest, as the destruction of the gate. I don't know.

[dancrilis]

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html

"Rat is apparently furious" is it's own bubble. It comes after "The twelve Gods are similarly split. Some don't want to negotiate with the god responsible for what happened to Azure City."

I had always assumed this was meant as "Rat is furious they conquered Azure City". That said, I now think it could be interpreted various ways. And "what happened to Azure City" could mean not so much the conquest, as the destruction of the gate. I don't know.

That is the common reading.
But you could read it as Rat is furious some don't want to negotiate - we don't know.

[danielxcutter]

Am I the only person who think both might be true at the same time?

[Ruck]

Spoiler: HTPGHS

Show

Expansionist power.
Generating refugees.
Ruled by an Evil Red Dragon.

Whether is is Evil or not saying that it has Evil markings is probably fair enough.

How long ago were those events from the ones we're talking about? I did read the book, but I didn't think much about this at the time, or at least certainly not enough to consider it as part of some karmic downfall of Azure CIty.

I mean, why not both?

I mean, why both? I'm going for what I think is the most likely answer here, not just exploring every possible interpretation.