Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

[jdizzlean]

can someone smarter than me throw a table up, after this dispute is resolved, we'll roll out the halloween round!

[AvatarVecna]

Build	Cadwyn/Vayshor	Muse/Downtrodden
Player	?	?
AvatarVecna	13.125	12.875
GrayDeath	12.64	14.625
H_H_F_F	12.65	12.15
Total	38.415	39.65

[H_H_F_F]

Response to the dispute:

Well, colour me embarrassed. I got the templates confused. That's on me, and 100% justifies a dispute - you don't come off "ranty" at all. This template is Downtrodden's main vice when it comes to elegance, so disputes towards it are very relevant.

I also now better understand the reason you made the choice, and the reason you did when you did. However, I still think you're mistaken on two accounts:

1. It is my belief that templates which change CR based on HD keep changing CR as HD changes. It is how I've always played, and I've always believed it was pretty much RAW. Has this been addressed in this competition before? Am I wrong in thinking CR, DR, etc should change if HD keep piling up, in templates which are dependent on HD?

2. While I now understand what you were trying to do, and applaud it, I do not believe you get the fast healing you think you're getting. The relevant section says:

Fast Healing (Ex): While in the Abyss, a creature corrupted
by the Abyss heals damage equal to one-half its character level
(maximum 10 points) per round. If the base creature already
has fast healing, use the better value.

As far as I'm aware (and I keep saying that, because I feel the need to be extra-carefull after my previous error) the Mournland doesn't count as part of the Abyss.

Regarding muse: I enjoyed the contrast, and even gave you credit for it in memorable heroism/villainy, but I still had to punish you in elegance, of course.

You get a refund for the subtraction I made for 3e material. I will also take this opportunity to take Graydeath's advice regarding minimal score. Your elegance score is now 1.3, and will change again if either point 1 or point 2 are refuted - with point 1 carrying the heavier weight.

I hope everyone can forgive me for dragging this on.

[AvatarVecna]

Response to the dispute:

Well, colour me embarrassed. I got the templates confused. That's on me, and 100% justifies a dispute - you don't come off "ranty" at all. This template is Downtrodden's main vice when it comes to elegance, so disputes towards it are very relevant.

I also now better understand the reason you made the choice, and the reason you did when you did. However, I still think you're mistaken on two accounts:

1. It is my belief that templates which change CR based on HD keep changing CR as HD changes. It is how I've always played, and I've always believed it was pretty much RAW. Has this been addressed in this competition before? Am I wrong in thinking CR, DR, etc should change if HD keep piling up, in templates which are dependent on HD?

2. While I now understand what you were trying to do, and applaud it, I do not believe you get the fast healing you think you're getting. The relevant section says:

As far as I'm aware (and I keep saying that, because I feel the need to be extra-carefull after my previous error) the Mournland doesn't count as part of the Abyss.

Regarding muse: I enjoyed the contrast, and even gave you credit for it in memorable heroism/villainy, but I still had to punish you in elegance, of course.

You get a refund for the subtraction I made for 3e material. I will also take this opportunity to take Graydeath's advice regarding minimal score. Your elegance score is now 1.3, and will change again if either point 1 or point 2 are refuted - with point 1 carrying the heavier weight.

I hope everyone can forgive me for dragging this on.

Table's been updated to reflect the change in score.

[H_H_F_F]

Table's been updated to reflect the change in score.

Quick and efficient. Thank you, AvatarVecna.

[jdizzlean]

Build	Cadwyn/Vayshor	Muse/Downtrodden
Player	Thurbane	Falontani
AvatarVecna	13.125	12.875
GrayDeath	12.64	14.625
H_H_F_F	12.65	12.15
Total	38.415	39.65

ok gang, i'm out the door to take the kiddo to the zoo, either later tonight, or more likely tomorrow sometime i'll get the new round up

thanks to all the judges and competitors, and for the first time in my memory, HM goes to a judge! AV

[Thurbane]

Congrats Falontani!

And thank you so much to the judges - was a real buzz to have three judges!

[GrayDeath]

Yeah, now if we jsut could have 3 Judges in a round with normal participation, we (Judges or Palyers) would be truly lucky.

[Falontani]

Thanks to all participants!

H_H_F_F:
I have always played that you continue to gain the increasing benefits from the template, but the cr is an increase to the base creature's cr. I've done than in past competitions and not been penalized.

AvatarVecna, like I said earlier, there is one thing I disagree with in your judging, but it may be biased (probably). I think muse and downtrodden are much more rivals than you were seeming to say. I built them not with the impression of muse bring in the party, but being the eventual quest giver. He knows their backstory. And he wouldn't let the party go without him. For the competition we were supposed to create two characters using the elite array, which to me implies unique npc when friendly.

[AvatarVecna]

Thanks to all participants!

H_H_F_F:
I have always played that you continue to gain the increasing benefits from the template, but the cr is an increase to the base creature's cr. I've done than in past competitions and not been penalized.

AvatarVecna, like I said earlier, there is one thing I disagree with in your judging, but it may be biased (probably). I think muse and downtrodden are much more rivals than you were seeming to say. I built them not with the impression of muse bring in the party, but being the eventual quest giver. He knows their backstory. And he wouldn't let the party go without him. For the competition we were supposed to create two characters using the elite array, which to me implies unique npc when friendly.

I like the story of Muse and Downtrodden a great deal - stories exploring artifically-created life are of great interest to me, and I think it was very well-written for the snapshots we get of their lives. But the problem of their rivalry isn't a matter of whether Muse is in an adventuring party himself or not, it's wrapped up in the fundamental idea of what it means to be a rival. I'm of the opinion that a hero-villain rivalry requires more than just ironic duality that each of them is distantly aware - there needs to be antagonism, competition. They need to have real strong feelings about each other, they need to take actions at the expense of the other.

And they don't. At all.

Not except for a point at the very beginning (when Downtrodden is very generally jealous of all his brothers and just happens to be a little more jealous of Muse for being the best of them) and a point at the very end (when Downtrodden kills Muse's love).

At best, you could maybe say they're distant rivals for the first 5 levels, in that they're competing against the concept of the other's place in the heirarchy, but Downtrodden's thoughts aren't exactly consumed by Muse outperforming him, and he never does anything to cause Muse problems until what is implied to be something like 16th level. And beyond the fact that lvl 16 is just too late in the game for a rivalry to start, if it's supposed to be a central point of characterization for the two of them, that has level 6 to 16 being in that "who? oh him, he's probably dead" relationship. Particularly with the villain comp, I try to see how well a villain could fit into a campaign - a neat one-off encounter at some point in the campaign isn't a villain, it's a mini-boss with a gimmick and a neat backstory. A lot of entries to villain comp have this problem, where they're only really viable capital-V "VILLAINS" at the particular level the builder was trying to highlight. And Muse/Downtrodden, despite far and away being the most interesting, don't really work as part of a long-term anything.

Levels 1-5, Muse and Downtrodden were sold to different countries, and if it's intended that they happen to constantly be fighting on opposite sides of the same battle, that doesn't seem clear to we the audience or Muse/Downtrodden themselves, and that's kinda the point. Even if they are fighting each other at that point, it's not a directed rivalry in any sense, it's not personal. And even if they were aware of each other, it wouldn't matter: Muse has decision-making power, but has no motivation to go out of his way to screw over Downtrodden, and even if we pretend that Downtrodden's thoughts are consumed with hatred for Muse and that DT was fully aware he was fighting Muse's company on the battlefield (which again, isn't explicitly true in the first place), Downtrodden has no say in what he does in battles, he's just endlessly following orders until eventually he gets one that kills him. For the first five levels, even if it's theoretically possible for them to be antagonistic towards each other (and it very well might not even be possible), there's no reason it would occur without twisting the story away from the excellent writing that's already there. And then from level 6 to at least lvl 11, and more likely lvl 16ish, neither of them has any reason to believe the other is alive, and they most definitely aren't encountering each other.

If I was trying to play a game where the adventuring party were getting wrapped up in this story, then at best they'd be getting hired by muse sometime after DT consumed Muse's love. That's late-game. That's super-late-game. And most games just don't make it to that part of play.

Comparatively, Cadwyn and Vayshor are actively competing with each other, in close proximity, right from level 1, and the personal level of that antagonism ramps up in both directions starting at level 5. One of them is always pursuing the other with bad intentions. I could work that into a game no matter what level it is. The story is barebones, but it's functional in setting up an ongoing rivalry between these two brothers, and while it's not as emotionally interesting as Muse/Downtrodden, it's also what the contest was supposed to be about in the first place.

Just my two cents about it.

[Falontani]

I like the story of Muse and Downtrodden a great deal - stories exploring artifically-created life are of great interest to me, and I think it was very well-written for the snapshots we get of their lives. But the problem of their rivalry isn't a matter of whether Muse is in an adventuring party himself or not, it's wrapped up in the fundamental idea of what it means to be a rival. I'm of the opinion that a hero-villain rivalry requires more than just ironic duality that each of them is distantly aware - there needs to be antagonism, competition. They need to have real strong feelings about each other, they need to take actions at the expense of the other.

And they don't. At all.

Not except for a point at the very beginning (when Downtrodden is very generally jealous of all his brothers and just happens to be a little more jealous of Muse for being the best of them) and a point at the very end (when Downtrodden kills Muse's love).

At best, you could maybe say they're distant rivals for the first 5 levels, in that they're competing against the concept of the other's place in the heirarchy, but Downtrodden's thoughts aren't exactly consumed by Muse outperforming him, and he never does anything to cause Muse problems until what is implied to be something like 16th level. And beyond the fact that lvl 16 is just too late in the game for a rivalry to start, if it's supposed to be a central point of characterization for the two of them, that has level 6 to 16 being in that "who? oh him, he's probably dead" relationship. Particularly with the villain comp, I try to see how well a villain could fit into a campaign - a neat one-off encounter at some point in the campaign isn't a villain, it's a mini-boss with a gimmick and a neat backstory. A lot of entries to villain comp have this problem, where they're only really viable capital-V "VILLAINS" at the particular level the builder was trying to highlight. And Muse/Downtrodden, despite far and away being the most interesting, don't really work as part of a long-term anything.

Levels 1-5, Muse and Downtrodden were sold to different countries, and if it's intended that they happen to constantly be fighting on opposite sides of the same battle, that doesn't seem clear to we the audience or Muse/Downtrodden themselves, and that's kinda the point. Even if they are fighting each other at that point, it's not a directed rivalry in any sense, it's not personal. And even if they were aware of each other, it wouldn't matter: Muse has decision-making power, but has no motivation to go out of his way to screw over Downtrodden, and even if we pretend that Downtrodden's thoughts are consumed with hatred for Muse and that DT was fully aware he was fighting Muse's company on the battlefield (which again, isn't explicitly true in the first place), Downtrodden has no say in what he does in battles, he's just endlessly following orders until eventually he gets one that kills him. For the first five levels, even if it's theoretically possible for them to be antagonistic towards each other (and it very well might not even be possible), there's no reason it would occur without twisting the story away from the excellent writing that's already there. And then from level 6 to at least lvl 11, and more likely lvl 16ish, neither of them has any reason to believe the other is alive, and they most definitely aren't encountering each other.

If I was trying to play a game where the adventuring party were getting wrapped up in this story, then at best they'd be getting hired by muse sometime after DT consumed Muse's love. That's late-game. That's super-late-game. And most games just don't make it to that part of play.

Comparatively, Cadwyn and Vayshor are actively competing with each other, in close proximity, right from level 1, and the personal level of that antagonism ramps up in both directions starting at level 5. One of them is always pursuing the other with bad intentions. I could work that into a game no matter what level it is. The story is barebones, but it's functional in setting up an ongoing rivalry between these two brothers, and while it's not as emotionally interesting as Muse/Downtrodden, it's also what the contest was supposed to be about in the first place.

Just my two cents about it.

I understand your point of view better now. I may not entirely agree with your point of view on the matter, but then I did create the two characters and it is sometimes difficult to separate the events of what is perceived to have happened and the events that actually happen (the events that I thought up, and the events written down). I also think that the final score is definitely the most subjective to each individual. I don't think I've ever specifically disputed that category before. Thank you again for excellent judging ^_^

[H_H_F_F]

H_H_F_F:
I have always played that you continue to gain the increasing benefits from the template, but the cr is an increase to the base creature's cr. I've done than in past competitions and not been penalized.

I... Don't get that. I assumed you were keeping only the benefits granted at the appropriate HD. Getting be efits but not CR doesn't seem reasonable.

CR isn't like LA - it is a direct estimation of power, not a price you pay for power (except in this competition of course).

If we have 2 absolutely identical characters who were corrupted by the abyss, with both of them getting exactly the same benefits from the template, they should be the same CR. Suggesting a party is ready to deal with one of them at level, say, eleven, while they'll only be ready to deal with the other at 13, even though they're both mechanically the same character doesn't make any sense.

Anyway, I hope you weren't in any way offended by my judgement, Falontani. I'm sorry if I seemed harsh or unfair. I stand by what I said - your entry is a mess, but I'm glad it exists. Congratulations on your victory!

Thurbane, I enjoyed your work as well. If you ever find yourself creating a more complete story for these men, I'll be glad to read it.

[Falontani]

Anyway, I hope you weren't in any way offended by my judgement, Falontani. I'm sorry if I seemed harsh or unfair. I stand by what I said - your entry is a mess, but I'm glad it exists. Congratulations on your victory!

Not offended at all! I thought the table would look nicer, and I know Muse was an absolute s*** show.

[jdizzlean]

new round is up

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...res&p=24769217