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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Nerdomancer in the Playground Moderator
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Welcome to Round 37 of the Villainous Competition!

    Previous Competitions


    We're a little different than most of the optimization threads. We run on CR instead of ECL.

    Contestants:
    You will need to present a write-up of your build with at least one of the following points: 5 CR, 10 CR 15 CR, 20 CR, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20 CR build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

    Secret Laboratory:
    Competitors will be free to use any official 1st party (WotC) 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Compendium is allowed, but Dragon magazine is disallowed. Unearthed Arcana is allowed. Unupdated 3.0 materials, as well as web exclusives by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition. Leadership and all similar abilities are banned for sanity reasons.
    Builds that are fully monstrous are allowed at no penalty. All class levels are to be added on as associated class levels.

    Elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) is the assumed ability score generation method.
    Some monstrous characters can technically qualify for Epic feats as soon as their ECL is over 20. While regular Epic feats will be allowed, Epic Spellcasting and all other Epic feats that affect spells, psionic powers, or item creation are not permitted. Including these would give an unfair advantage over standard characters. For Incarnum characters, Epic Open Chakra feats are allowed; other Epic Incarnum feats are not. The Essentia Capacity increases for Epic capacity as described on p. 212. For all characters, please note that Racial Hit Dice do not count towards Epic Progression; use the regular progression even if the BAB ends up higher than 20.

    Deadlines:
    Contestants will have until 23:59 MST September 5th to create their builds and PM them to the Supreme Chancellor. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 23:59 MST Saturday Septhember 26th to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted. Deadlines are subject to extension as/if required.

    Judging:
    Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Build Elegance, Competence and Power, Memorable Villainy.
    Keep these questions in mind when judging each category:
    Originality - Is it unexpected?
    Build Elegance - Is it mechanically pretty?
    Competence and Power - Can it do what the concept asks of it? Is this a powerfully-built character?
    Memorable Villainy - Is this a villain with style? Will it be the BBEG players long to finally kill and then talk about for weeks?
    Unearthed Arcana can be penalized for elegance if the specific feature seems unnecessary or makes the playing field unfair (In this case, you can give a 1 if it makes the field unfair.)
    Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. As the Iron Chef competition states, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
    You may not judge if you entered the contest, unless you withdraw your submission.

    Presentation:
    Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

    Note:
    There is now a hard limit on two (2) entries per competitor.

    Using the table below, the easiest way to use it is to go to the top left of the private message, and click the little a/A icon. It allows you to see what you're writing.
    Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.
    Spoiler
    Show
    CR Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features
    1 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    2 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    3 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    4 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    5 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    6 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    7 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    8 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    9 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    10 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    11 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    12 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    13 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    14 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    15 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    16 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    17 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    18 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    19 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    20 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    Code immediately below (spoiler).
    Spoiler
    Show
    [table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]CR[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Fort Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Ref Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Will Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Skills[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Feats[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class Features[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]

    You can use the table below for Spells.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Spells per Day/Spells Known
    Spells per Day/Spells Known
    Level 0lvl 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1st - - - - - - - - - -
    2nd - - - - - - - - - -
    3rd - - - - - - - - - -
    4th - - - - - - - - - -
    5th - - - - - - - - - -
    6th - - - - - - - - - -
    7th - - - - - - - - - -
    8th - - - - - - - - - -
    9th - - - - - - - - - -
    10th - - - - - - - - - -
    11th - - - - - - - - - -
    12th - - - - - - - - - -
    13th - - - - - - - - - -
    14th - - - - - - - - - -
    15th - - - - - - - - - -
    16th - - - - - - - - - -
    17th - - - - - - - - - -
    18th - - - - - - - - - -
    19th - - - - - - - - - -
    20th - - - - - - - - - -
    Code Immediately Below,
    Spoiler
    Show

    [B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
    [B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
    [table="class:head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]Level[/B][/th]
    [th][B]0lvl[/B][/th]
    [th][B]1st[/B][/th]
    [th][B]2nd[/B][/th]
    [th][B]3rd[/B][/th]
    [th][B]4th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]5th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]6th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]7th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]8th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]9th[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1st[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2nd[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3rd[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]


    Speculation:
    Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
    Once builds are revealed, please do not comment on errors or rules issues on entries unless you are a judge. If you have such a comment, wait until the final reveal to post it.

    Get ready to share those Evil thoughts. This edition’s villain is:

    Yin and Yang


    Villain and His Rival


    Limitations


    • Must start off as the same Class, until reaching CR/ECL 5 should be VERY similar regarding their Choices, must have very detailed "points of divergence" fluff and mechanicwise.
    • Each Contestant must build a Villain and his Main Hero Rival, if the Villain is detailed in one CR Area, the Hero must be too.
    • Both must be single person, non Semi or totally infinite Beings and have a good, concise and INTERESTING reason for being Rivals.
    • Must be Good (Hero) and Evil (Villain)


    We will award 1st through 3rd places, and a possible Honorable Mention.
    So, start your evil plotting!

    Submission:
    To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:

    PM: Jdizzlean
    Subject: Villainous Competition 37, Name of your Entry
    For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mail box.
    More questions? PM me with Villainous Competition 35 Questions in the header.

    Tips for submitting your entry, provided by Weaselguy:




    As always: let's keep it nice.

    I'll mention that again - LET'S KEEP IT NICE! Bickering, name calling and nasty comments on the entries or other forum members are not tolerated.


    New competition rule: if I feel an individual has been overly disruptive during the course of competition discussion, I will not be accepting and revealing any entries from that individual, and they will also not be allowed to judge. Any judging they enter will not be taken into account for the final tally.

    Spoiler
    Show
    It's sad that it had to come to this, but here's a list of permanently banned (from this Villainous Competition) members:

    Novolin
    Yklikt
    Last edited by jdizzlean; 2020-08-16 at 12:29 AM.
    Spoiler: Medals & Current Characters
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    More sources, more choices, more power. Welcome to D&D.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee
    I mean, I have been assuming Jdizzlean looks like Nathan Fillion this whole time to start with...
    The Mod Life Crisis If you need me to address a thread as a Moderator, please include a link

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Nerdomancer in the Playground Moderator
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Clarifications

    Unearthed Arcana variant rules are limited: The variant character options (such as Wildshape Ranger and Thug Fighter) should not be penalized. Flaws and traits may be penalized by judges, whereas item familiars, gestalt, alternate skill systems, alternate magic systems, alternate crafting rules, generic base classes, LA buyoff, fractional saves/BAB, and bloodlines are banned. Anything not mentioned here is up to individual judges.

    d20 Rokugan is not allowed material.

    The Dragon Magazine update for Oriental Adventures is in use.

    Leadership is banned. Any material that grants you leadership without you specifically taking it should be ignored and may not be traded away for another feat or ACF. Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort are likewise banned. Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar are allowed. If you are not sure if a specific feat violates the 'no leadership' rule, err on the side of caution, or ask me.

    However, Leadership may be taken to qualify for another feat or class (such as the Great Captain feat or Legendary Leader prestige class), though a character still doesn't get its usual benefit in those cases. This is to allow characters to access unproblematic material that'd otherwise be made unavailable because of the Leadership ban.

    On the subject of messaging the chair (me), a few guidelines:
    - I am not here to give critiques on your build or guess how the judges might score it!
    - For entries, please keep the entry to no more than 2 message, if at all possible.
    - For entries, don't expect me to search through your entry and edit in or out material. Entries should be sent to me complete - if there is a later revision, re-submit the full build. PLEASE DON'T INCLUDE TEXT IN YOUR SUBMISSION YOU WANT ME TO EDIT OUT FOR THE POST - SUBMIT IT TO ME EXACTLY HOW I WILL POST THE FINISHED PRODUCT.
    - Please make sure the name of your entry is clearly present in the message.

    GrayDeath has graciously helped to create the limitations for this round, and will be judging it. Any ruling questions asked in thread will be answered by GD unless I’m asked to intervene with a ruling.

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    Question Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Hmmm, very interesting. A little time intensive to make two builds, but a very cool challenge.

    I'll do my best to get something in!

    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean View Post
    • Must start off as the same Class, until reaching CR/ECL 5 should be VERY similar regarding their Choices, must have very detailed "points of divergence" fluff and mechanicwise.
    Just to clarify: with the mention of "CR/ECL 5", we're still building based on CR, with it going up to CR 20, right? We don't need to worry about ECLs? Also, must they be creatures that advance by class?

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    YES, build by CR as per normal, its just if you highlight CR 5 for your villain, you must also highlight ECL 5 for your hero


    as for advance by class, i'll leave that up to Grey to clarify
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    More sources, more choices, more power. Welcome to D&D.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee
    I mean, I have been assuming Jdizzlean looks like Nathan Fillion this whole time to start with...
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean View Post
    YES, build by CR as per normal, its just if you highlight CR 5 for your villain, you must also highlight ECL 5 for your hero


    as for advance by class, i'll leave that up to Grey to clarify
    Challenge Rating and Effective Character Level are two very different things. You have to choose between them.
    You said to build by CR as normal, and to compare both the villian and hero by CR, but then changed it in the post responding to Thurbane to use ECL for the hero. Are they supposed to be built using different methods? CR for one, ECL for the other? If so, that's what you need to state. Those metrics are not at all comparable.

    The villian and hero are limited to starting with class levels under CR/ECL 5. Does that mean you intend for them to be Player races? ('Person' implies Humanoid.) That is a severe limitation if so, and needs clarified. A great deal of non-Humanoid races, even if starting under CR 5, will have an ECL above 5. That also suggests that you intend this round to be more Player Character, than not.

    I don't believe you answered Thurbane's question. He asked if we build by CR as normal and don't have to worry about ECL. You confirmed that was correct, and then in the same sentence said to use ECL. Which is it?

    Edit: Graydeath, should we be asking you these questions? I just saw the comment at the end of the second post saying you helped set the limitations and would be judging, and that you'd answer any ruling questions. Should we wait until you explain everything and ignore other posts?
    Last edited by PrismCat21; 2020-08-16 at 08:00 AM. Reason: GrayDeath
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    Vaz approval for the best backstory. Villainous Competition 16: Burn Baby Burn
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    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...e-Night!/page6 Xihu Ayame

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    prism

    this is your final warning. be civil in this competition, stop attacking the chair, or else you'll be banned from it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    More sources, more choices, more power. Welcome to D&D.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee
    I mean, I have been assuming Jdizzlean looks like Nathan Fillion this whole time to start with...
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean View Post
    prism

    this is your final warning. be civil in this competition, stop attacking the chair, or else you'll be banned from it.
    This seems like an overreaction. PrismCat's post could have been a bit less forcefully worded, but it is factually correct. ECL and CR are very distinct mechanics, and it's not made clear in the OP which the hero and villain are supposed to use, or if either the hero or villain can choose between the two.

    I also have to agree that your response to Thurbane was not clear; first you answered in the affirmative to 'We don't need to worry about ECL", then proceeded to mention ECL as being applicable to the hero.

    Of course, since you seem to have delegated ruling authority to GrayDeath, we can probably wait for the relevant clarifications to come from him. I just wanted to point out that the questions about the clarity of restrictions, at least from my perspective, are justified and not necessarily an attack on you.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Quote Originally Posted by NontheistCleric
    This seems like an overreaction.
    I completely expected it. It's one of the reasons I stopped participating in the first place. No matter what I did or how I said things, it was taken as an attack. So, I stopped trying to tiptoe around what might or might not be perceived in different ways. I chose to ask questions directly, no emotions or hidden agendas involved. Simple & direct questions/issues, simple & direct reasons/examples for the questions/issues, and requiring a simple & direct response. Didn't matter. It was always an attack. I stopped caring, and at the end, made my feelings known and left.
    Notice that the issues weren't addressed. It was an attack when I ask about inconsistencies while giving clear examples, but legitimate when someone else asks about the same.

    How someone else chooses to interpret something is wholly on them. It's rarely even close to what was said, or implied in any way.
    The beatings will continue until morale improves!

    Vaz approval for the best backstory. Villainous Competition 16: Burn Baby Burn
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=114

    Honorable Mention Villainous Competition 22: I Am The Night
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...e-Night!/page6 Xihu Ayame

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    I'll sign up to judge this round.


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    Thumbs up Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Hey guys, lets all try to be respectful of the chair and each other. It's a just for fun comp, and I know its easy to get frustrated with certain things, but lets all be cool to each other. We're all here to have fun.

    The chair has advised Graydeath will be helping to clarify the limitations/crunch for the round - lets wait for that reply, and hopefully should all be more clear.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Please lets all stay civil.

    Prism, while I dont think your post was only interpretable as an attack, the tone DOES influence the music, and coming across as overtly negative/critizising EVERYTHING is a great way to make chairs loose the fun of doing this, which, might I remind you, we all are doing in our free time, with the goals of having FUN.


    as for the general Questions:

    I suggested the players to be able to choose from 3 different variants, of which the Chair seemingly has chosen one. Probably to make judging easier, to which as a Judge, I am thankful.
    It also will allow us to use a similar yet differently focussed round in the future, if the time and circumstances fit.

    Now, Answers:

    This variant truly differentiates between the Hero (built using ECL) and the Villain (built as usual using CR), and requires both to start off near identical.
    That means same Races (but no, you are not required to be humanoid, just use the same if they need racial HD), but different alternate feats/Subtypes of these are available, the same Class(es) for the first levels/until reaching ECL or CR 5 respectively, where the turning point is, and to build clearly different characters from there onward.



    The only part where ECL does not apply as usual for the Hero is that racial LA-values are equalized with CR Increases, to make synching a bit easier (and to allow more various races to choose from). However, yes, this does prevent some races/Concepts from being used.
    As did every single Competition so far, so pelase keep it cool. :)


    I think building "Mirrors" with similar origins that then went very different ways is nothing that limits you at all, given you decide which ingredients to use from start to finish, it mainly says that the SECOND Character you build also has to do it similalry for 5 CR steps/Levels/you name it.

    So look at it as 2 characters offering pretty great freedom of building, instead of one limited to it, might make it more fun!

    And I will both judge this round and be here to answer questions. :)
    Last edited by GrayDeath; 2020-08-16 at 06:02 PM.
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”

    01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110

    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean
    Yin and Yang


    Villain and His Rival


    Limitations


    Must start off as the same Class, until reaching CR/ECL 5 should be VERY similar regarding their Choices, must have very detailed "points of divergence" fluff and mechanic wise.
    Each Contestant must build a Villain and his Main Hero Rival, if the Villain is detailed in one CR Area, the Hero must be too.
    Both must be single person, non Semi or totally infinite Beings and have a good, concise and INTERESTING reason for being Rivals.
    Must be Good (Hero) and Evil (Villain)
    I am not in on this, so I can be wrong, and if Graydeath answers contradictory to what I am about to say I will edit this post to reflect Graydeath's answer.

    I believe that most PC races (not monster races) have a CR = their ECL, and that our "Monster" and the "Hero" should both be roughly the same until CR 5. For the "Hero" this would be ~ECL 5 in most cases, while for our "Monster" it would be ~CR 5. It seems that there is and emphasis on being more normal, and diverging.
    Going on I believe that whenever we take a snapshot of our "monster" at X CR, we should also be taking a snapshot of the "hero" at an equal ECL. So it seems that the "Hero" is supposed to stay a somewhat normal PC character, much more akin to an IC character than a VC character.


    My own thoughts on the matter aside, my questions are on the judging scale. Are our "Monster" and "Hero" being graded together, or separately? Will the "Hero" being somewhat standard bite us in the rear for our "Monster's" originality? Would a large difference in power, with the "Hero" being fairly weak or powerful and the "Monster" being the opposite cause you to grade our Power in a poor light?

    I like this competition's theme, and I like this competition. I don't think this round is as difficult or bizarre as some recent rounds, but having a second character to build does pose some questions.
    Last edited by Falontani; 2020-08-16 at 06:01 PM. Reason: ninja'd by Graydeath
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I feel like telling the ghost of Gary Gygax to hold your beer is a good way to suddenly stop being the GM, but I have to admit that this would probably be remarkably effective. At what, I dunno, but effective.
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    @ Falontani:

    Judging of both will be seperate, as if they were 2 builds, then the average of both builds will be your final Score.

    The actual "Fit" of the hero to the Villain/ergo the "how well did you keep the Theme" will be part of both the Elegance and the Memorability Scores.

    So yes, it is easily possible to win because of the Hero or the Villain, and to lose because of them as well.


    Edit: Also, since its past 1 o clock where I live, and I need some sleep, I wont answer new questions until tomorrow some time after Noon.
    I will also post my detailed judging criteria tomorrow or the day after, to avoid any misunderstandings.
    Last edited by GrayDeath; 2020-08-16 at 06:22 PM.
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”

    01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110

    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    And to think I already used my Grappling Halflings...

    No inspiration yet, but I like this round.
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    No inspiration yet, but I like this round.
    I guess a good example could be Elan & Nale, if they were already 5th-level as toddlers

    It is a bit tricky on the PC part : as the Villain has Memorable Villainy rating, it also means the PC has a Memorable Heroic rating ^^
    Last edited by JyP; 2020-08-17 at 08:11 AM.
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    biggrin Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    OK, I think I've nailed down a concept. Now the hard part: fleshing out the mechanics, formatting the thing, and writing up interesting fluff/backstory etc.

    I'm going to do my absolute best to get an entry in. Sep 5 should be doable, and as a bonus, I have a couple of annual leave days Aug 28 & 31.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Good to hear, your builds are almost always particularly well made. ;)
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”

    01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110

    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Good to hear, your builds are almost always particularly well made. ;)
    Don't worry, I'll balance out the well made stuff he makes, and throw some crap in a pot, throw various well known fun bits in, and then regurgitate it up for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I feel like telling the ghost of Gary Gygax to hold your beer is a good way to suddenly stop being the GM, but I have to admit that this would probably be remarkably effective. At what, I dunno, but effective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    I am continually astounded by how new you are here in contrast to how impressive your mind is.

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    Thumbs up Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Quote Originally Posted by Falontani View Post
    Don't worry, I'll balance out the well made stuff he makes, and throw some crap in a pot, throw various well known fun bits in, and then regurgitate it up for you.
    Don't sell yourself short, you've had plenty of great entries.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Indeed. I consider you the one person I must beat, Falontani! You won't steal the gold from me this time!

    (you probably will)

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Interesting.

    I'm a bit late to the party, so might not be able to get anything in in time, but I'll see what I can do.
    WINNER! Villainous Competition XXXII: Selene, Bride of Ruin
    Silver Medallist Villainous Competition XXVI: Faras Alnahr, Dark Scion of the Hippo God


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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Progress has been a lot slower than expected due to other commitments, but I'm hoping I can still have an entry ready for Sept 5th.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Given that I wont be able to judge much/any next week, I for one would not ahve a problem with a week extension.

    After all, if I cant start judging, you should still build ^^
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”

    01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110

    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Probably should have asked this earlier, but what exactly does the below phrase mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    racial LA-values are equalized with CR Increases, to make synching a bit easier
    I can't understand what is meant by equalizing LA with CR. The only thing that comes to mind is that the Hero's LA becomes equal to the villain's CR, but I feel like that can't possibly be what you intended.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    That means that, if you use a template that has different values of LA and CR (ergo most), you use the CR as LA.

    Example: You want both your Hero and Villain to start of able to Fly, so give them the Winged Template.
    Normally this template has a higher LA than CR modification.
    Now it has the same one.


    Clearer, I hope?
    Last edited by GrayDeath; 2020-09-02 at 05:08 PM.
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”

    01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110

    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Given that I wont be able to judge much/any next week, I for one would not ahve a problem with a week extension.

    After all, if I cant start judging, you should still build ^^
    This would be appreciated - just found out an online gaming group I'm in is having an event most of this weekend, which is when I was going to finish up my entry.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    That means that, if you use a template that has different values of LA and CR (ergo most), you use the CR as LA.

    Example: You want both your Hero and Villain to start of able to Fly, so give them the Winged Template.
    Normally this template has a higher LA than CR modification.
    Now it has the same one.

    Clearer, I hope?
    Thank you, that is clearer! But what about characters without templates? For example, a non-templated bugbear normally has an LA of +1 but a CR of 2. Does that mean that under this system, its LA would become +2?

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    No, because there is no such thing as LA X. Only LA +X, hence why LA+X and CR+X are streamlined to a common value, given they are in this instance both necessary.
    Namely get equalized to the lower of the 2 (which unless I am very much mistaken is almost always CR, excluding things with increasing CR per HD).
    Last edited by GrayDeath; 2020-09-02 at 06:23 PM.
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”

    01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110

    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    Deadline extended to 091220 same bat time, same bat channel.
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

    yayy, I can continue building!


    .... ANNNND done! Glad to have actually completed and sent in a VC after such a long time. I've missed this.
    Last edited by Falontani; 2020-09-08 at 11:11 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I feel like telling the ghost of Gary Gygax to hold your beer is a good way to suddenly stop being the GM, but I have to admit that this would probably be remarkably effective. At what, I dunno, but effective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    I am continually astounded by how new you are here in contrast to how impressive your mind is.

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