Demogorgon

[Laurellien]

The Prince of Demons is undeniably one of the iconic D&D opponents. With that in mind I'm trying to find statistics for him. I know that there are those available in the fiendish codex and the book of vile darkness. But I want something more, I need to know, has he ever been featured in the Demonomicon of Iggwilv, and if so, what issue of Dragon was it?

[bosssmiley]

Demonomicon in Dragon #357 was all about Big D.

DiceFreaks Serge also did a really scary take on him, basically working from the premise that Demogorgon was nothing less than the CE counterpart of Asmodeus.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Sorta weak then. Asmodeus wasn't that hard. And Demogorgon would probably have more strength and less tricks, since he seems to prefer going toe-to-toe with people and shredding them than using some magic.

[illathid]

A CR 81 is "Sorta weak then"? I think you should really check out the Gates of Hell before you make any assumptions about Asmodeus.

[Telonius]

IIRC he was statted out fairly weakly in BoVD. I don't have the book on me, but I don't remembering him being higher than CR 30.

[TheLogman]

That was an aspect I think.

[Grynning]

The problem with wanting stats for all of the demon lords, gods, etc, is that any game representation of the powers should just be an abstract. I mean, they're beings of unimaginable power, so basically you could theoretically make them as absurdly powerful as you want. That's why the game says that any physical manifestation that you fight is just an "aspect" - really, adventurer's shouldn't be able to kill off iconic figures like Demogorgon. If you want them to, just take the stats from one of the books, and advance him using the rules in MM to a CR about 3-4 levels above your party. He'll be a really mean BBEG, if that's what you're going for. That said, I usually don't bother to stat god-like beings, they just do whatever fits for the story and succeed or fail where appropriate, because die rolls for those suckers would be off the chart anyways, so why make them?
oh, and BoVD's stats for the demon/devil lords are actually more powerful than the ones in the Fiendish Codex books. The BoVD was written for 3rd, when they still wrote epic material. FC is solidly 3.5, they have nothing over a CR of 21-23.

[Mordokai]

Yeah, FC Demogorgon is kinda weak. The book itself states that it can be taken on by level 20 characters. That doesn't sound so mighty to me.

[Amiria]

But there are also guidelines to up the CR back into the epic regions. They are quite easy to do. The only difficult part is to adjust/add spell-like abilities and maybe bolster things like Summon Tanar'ri.

[Stormcrow]

A CR 81 is "Sorta weak then"? I think you should really check out the Gates of Hell before you make any assumptions about Asmodeus.

From what I remember Azerian's character is ECL 100 or some such.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Ya, it's that level, but the point is, some of the ole classics could thrash it easily. And that's not accounting for a scroll of Vengeful Gaze of God, which would be TOO abusable.

[BardicDuelist]

No offense AK, but you play at a level which much higher than your typical player. My group normally caps out by level 10. Others, even if they play high levels, never seem to really get above 40 (once you can take down gods, the game is less fun for some people).

Now, I'm not saying that what you do is wrong or anything like that, I'm just saying that a comment from you about how "weak" somthing is is a bit off because... well your realitive power level is much higher than most people.

[Idea Man]

If it has stats, we can kill it!

[BardicDuelist]

If it has stats, we can kill it!

Which is precisely why I am against statting Deities. Demon Lords, Archdevils, I am okay with having stats for, but they're CR should be at the top of whatever level your campaign world will allow (and be at least 20). If epic is common, at least 30-40.

If I want to use dieties and demon lords as opponents, I use the aspects at what ever level my players are at, but then to kill a god in my world, you just have to convince everyone that he doesn't exist (bard did it).

I guess what my previous post was saying (and I'm sorry for directing it at you AK) was that you should take the flavor of the characters and present them at a power level you see suitable for a campaign. When my players typically top out at level 10, CR 15 is pretty tough (elder brain of thoon), and some of the aspects (archfiends in FC) are really difficult (though not impossible, but rather close). Depending on the flavor you want to use for them and how difficult you want it to be to change you cosmology should determine the CR of the creatures.

Sorry to derail, but the OP was allready answered.
Also: The web enhancement for FCI had stats for a CR 9 aspect, which could be a great way to make him a prominent protagonist earlier on in the campaign (cult summons aspect, aspect wrecks havoc, etc).

[Laurellien]

Also: The web enhancement for FCI had stats for a CR 9 aspect, which could be a great way to make him a prominent protagonist earlier on in the campaign (cult summons aspect, aspect wrecks havoc, etc).

Surely you mean antagonist?

[Grynning]

Oh, I totally forgot to mention this (and I meant to in my first reply): The book Expedition to the Demonweb Pits has lower-level aspects of various demon-lords statted out in it. I think aspects of Grazz't, Yeenoghu, Demogorgon, and Jubilex are all in it, as well as metric buttload of NPC's and opponents for CR 10-12 characters.

[Laurellien]

Demonomicon in Dragon #357 was all about Big D.

DiceFreaks Serge also did a really scary take on him, basically working from the premise that Demogorgon was nothing less than the CE counterpart of Asmodeus.

I'm intrigued... where can I find Serge's take on the Abyssal Lords?

[BardicDuelist]

Surely you mean antagonist?

Yes, my mistake. Antagonist.

[bosssmiley]

I'm intrigued... where can I find Serge's take on the Abyssal Lords?

Here ya go

[Laurellien]

Thankyou again, it seems that you sir definitely deserve the internet I just gave you.