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Thread: The Hammer

  1. - Top - End - #31
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Each round of combat takes exactly 6 seconds, by definition. Everyone is allowed to have 1 turn per round. If a million peasants are in the same combat, they can use their action to pass an object along a line. (Ignore that the first peasant in the line is 5 million feet from the last one, and thus likely in a different county entirely, so it cannot possibly be in the same combat). An object passed along the chain moved 5 million feet (1.5 km, in real units) in 6 seconds (~250,000 m/s, if I've done the math right... which would be a lot easier to tell if dead king's locomotion appendages hadn't been involved).

    Grey Wolf

    Wait, is that how teleportation actually works? If I make a halfling, traveling by railgun should be a cinch....

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    Default Re: The Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by rbetieh View Post
    Wait, is that how teleportation actually works? If I make a halfling, traveling by railgun should be a cinch....
    Yes, that's why all Teleport spells had their school changed to Conjuration from 3.5 onward - it technically summons a number of ethereal commoners equal to the distance being "teleported" to, who pick up the caster and any objects or other creatures. Higher level casters conjure stronger ethereal commoners, which is how they are able to pick up more creatures, and why size constraints are imposed on creatures being "teleported". Because the ethereal commoners are summoned in a straight line between the departure and arrival destinations, the less the caster knows the location, the higher likelihood the line's angle will be slightly skewed, which accounts for the location mishap possibilities.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-08-27 at 03:52 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: The Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    No but seriously, how does that loophole work?
    It doesn't work.

    If anybody tried to do it in my game, I would ask the player to state in advance whether he wanted the rules applied with common sense as usual, or just RAW in defiance of common sense. But either way, the stunt doesn't work.

    If the DM is applying rules as written in defiance of common sense, then yes, a series of readied actions ("I ready an action to pass the spear forward as soon as it is placed in my hands") would all work, and the spear travels several miles in 6 seconds, at which point it only does 1d6 plus STR bonus of the person at the head of the line, since there is no rule giving it more damage based on its speed before it is thrown.

    If the rules are applied with common sense, then either the DM decides how long each transfer takes, and only a certain number can happen in round, and the spear never builds up speed, arriving an hour or more late. Or possibly he decides what DEX roll is necessary for each peasant to catch a spear moving at that speed.

    But either way, the peasant rail gun cannot work.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    If we're examining this with a scientific eye, then the real question is how does Thor's Might work - and what consequences might that have for the physical universe? Is it creating more space between the constituent atoms of the person? Is it enlarging the actual size of the atoms in their body? Or does it simply pull matter from some hidden dimension as extra material to pack into the body of the caster?

    And why do weapons and clothes grow along with the person? How does the spell determine what to include? It can't be based simply on objects in contact with the person's body, because if so, surely the ground beneath their feet counts as well. And what if someone was holding hands with the caster - how does the spell differentiate?

    Does this mean everything on the caster's body grows in size as well? Like, the bacteria that might be crawling around on their skin? Does this mean we get giant bacteria? And if not, then what about the gut flora within the caster's body - do they not grow along with the caster when the spell is cast?

    What if the caster is using Thor's Might and gets impaled by a regular-sized sword while they're giant, and then they shrink back to normal - does the sword that's stuck in their body shrink as well? And if so, what if I'm holding the sword as the caster is shrinking - do I get shrunk down too?

    So many questions.
    "Nothing is impossible ... if it can be ... contrived."

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by skim172 View Post
    Does this mean everything on the caster's body grows in size as well? Like, the bacteria that might be crawling around on their skin? Does this mean we get giant bacteria? And if not, then what about the gut flora within the caster's body - do they not grow along with the caster when the spell is cast?
    Well, Hel's Might definitely does that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yes, that's why all Teleport spells had their school changed to Conjuration from 3.5 onward - it technically summons a number of ethereal commoners equal to the distance being "teleported" to, who pick up the caster and any objects or other creatures. Higher level casters conjure stronger ethereal commoners, which is how they are able to pick up more creatures, and why size constraints are imposed on creatures being "teleported". Because the ethereal commoners are summoned in a straight line between the departure and arrival destinations, the less the caster knows the location, the higher likelihood the line's angle will be slightly skewed, which accounts for the location mishap possibilities.
    This is quite possibly my favourite comment on this forum.
    Bugbear cleric avatar by me.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by skim172 View Post
    If we're examining this with a scientific eye, ...
    "If."

    Quote Originally Posted by skim172 View Post
    If we're examining this with a scientific eye, then the real question is how does Thor's Might work - and what consequences might that have for the physical universe? Is it creating more space between the constituent atoms of the person? Is it enlarging the actual size of the atoms in their body? Or does it simply pull matter from some hidden dimension as extra material to pack into the body of the caster?

    And why do weapons and clothes grow along with the person? How does the spell determine what to include? It can't be based simply on objects in contact with the person's body, because if so, surely the ground beneath their feet counts as well. And what if someone was holding hands with the caster - how does the spell differentiate?

    Does this mean everything on the caster's body grows in size as well? Like, the bacteria that might be crawling around on their skin? Does this mean we get giant bacteria? And if not, then what about the gut flora within the caster's body - do they not grow along with the caster when the spell is cast?

    What if the caster is using Thor's Might and gets impaled by a regular-sized sword while they're giant, and then they shrink back to normal - does the sword that's stuck in their body shrink as well? And if so, what if I'm holding the sword as the caster is shrinking - do I get shrunk down too?

    So many questions.
    Other DMs can rule differently in their games, and thatís fine. But hereís my approach:

    I donít encourage players to examine the world with a modern scientific eye. It reduces the feel of wonder, awe, and mystery, in return for nothing of any game value. The PCs do not have access to Knowledge(modern science).

    If my players asked these questions, I would tell them that any time they choose to experiment, they can find out the gross effects of a spell. Cast it sometime with a hammer, then put the hammer down. Try picking something up. They can find out details that way. They will learn that, as with many spells, what stays within the spell area (in this case, an individualís personal space) stays the same size, but what leaves (a thrown hammer, an arrow) shrinks as soon as it ends its immediate effect (an arrow does large-size damage, then shrinks). But nothing grows except at the time of casting.

    Similarly, if they try to include somebody holding hands, or the ground beneath their feet, they will learn that those are outside the limits of the spell, just as many spells have effect limits. You canít get past the limits of a Charm Person spell by targeting somebody holding hands with someone else, either.

    Weapons and clothes grow with growth spells for the same reasons that they turn invisible, teleport, go ethereal, or share other spell effects.

    But the PCs have never heard of atoms, bacteria, gut flora, or conservation of mass or energy, and would not believe in them if somebody told them about them. [Correctly, by the way. Physical laws are different, and mass and energy are not conserved. Any Enlarge Person or Fireball spell proves that.]

    In short, they can learn about the gross effects of spells by trying the spells and seeing what happens. But they cannot learn any modern scientific laws, in part because they arenít the laws of that world.

    I repeat: other DMs can rule differently in their games, and thatís fine.
    Last edited by Jay R; 2020-08-31 at 09:00 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potatopeelerkin View Post
    This is quite possibly my favourite comment on this forum.
    This immensely pleases me. Hell, I instantly went and lobbied my D&D group to make that canon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    This immensely pleases me. Hell, I instantly went and lobbied my D&D group to make that canon.
    Will you then lobby them to make that cannon?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Will you then lobby them to make that cannon?
    Making it canon would make that cannon.
    Quote Originally Posted by truemane
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yes, that's why all Teleport spells had their school changed to Conjuration from 3.5 onward - it technically summons a number of ethereal commoners equal to the distance being "teleported" to, who pick up the caster and any objects or other creatures. Higher level casters conjure stronger ethereal commoners, which is how they are able to pick up more creatures, and why size constraints are imposed on creatures being "teleported". Because the ethereal commoners are summoned in a straight line between the departure and arrival destinations, the less the caster knows the location, the higher likelihood the line's angle will be slightly skewed, which accounts for the location mishap possibilities.
    Brilliant. I can't add that to my sig, as it's too large, but that's some good stuff right there.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Brilliant. I can't add that to my sig, as it's too large, but that's some good stuff right there.
    Thereís an extended signature thread I have some stuff in you can put it in.
    Arrrgh, here be me extended sig!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elanís Exception, ďWho wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?Ē. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peeleeís Ye Old Reminder).

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    Default Re: The Hammer

    Any method to curate my brilliance and wit is a method I approve of.

    Also, super bonus points to anyone who uses Peeleean Teleportation in their game.
    Quote Originally Posted by truemane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Thereís an extended signature thread I have some stuff in you can put it in.
    I figured out how to sneak it in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Thereís an extended signature thread I have some stuff in you can put it in.
    What kind of low-life would resort to such measure? Fi, I say, fi!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    This immensely pleases me. Hell, I instantly went and lobbied my D&D group to make that canon.
    Once the Commoner Railway Express is Cannon, you should lobby to have them always Sing the Beatles "Ticket to Ride" while transporting folks. It may only last 6 seconds but thats enough to earworm in there...

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Regarding the commoner railgun, there's a slightly more obscure way to break physics that actually will work if you apply the rules rigidly: The supersonic grappleball.

    A creature can be grappled by up to 4 other creatures, who can in turn be grappled by up to 4 creatures (including the original). With some basic branching you can fit an infinite number of creatures in a single space all grappling each other. But it gets silly when you bring the moving during a grapple rule into play. Each round you can attempt to drag everyone you're currently grappling with half your normal movement speed if you beat all their grapple checks. Grapple checks that they could individually all choose to fail.

    Add that all up, and you get an arbitrary amount of commoners dragging each other at arbitrarily high speeds through nothing other than the power of a group hug.
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2020-08-31 at 10:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    But it gets silly when you bring the moving during a grapple rule into play.
    Oh, that's when it gets silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by truemane
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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Oh, that's when it gets silly.
    Yep, before that it was all fun and games, but then someone got their eye put out by the impact of a ball of an arbitrary number of commoners moving at arbitrarily high speed.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Since they all act at the same initiative itís actually a form of quantum entanglement
    'Utķlie'n aurŽ! Aiya EldaliŽ ar AtanatŠri, utķlie'n aurŽ! ďThe day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lůmŽ!" The night is passing!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjasghar View Post
    Since they all act at the same initiative itís actually a form of quantum entanglement
    *golf clap*
    Although since they be commoners, maybe it's a form of common entanglement ...
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    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct
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    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    *golf clap*
    Although since they be commoners, maybe it's a form of common entanglement ...
    Well, given that Teleportation isnít that hard to come by, it is indeed a common action at a distance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Regarding the commoner railgun, there's a slightly more obscure way to break physics that actually will work if you apply the rules rigidly: The supersonic grappleball.

    A creature can be grappled by up to 4 other creatures, who can in turn be grappled by up to 4 creatures (including the original). With some basic branching you can fit an infinite number of creatures in a single space all grappling each other. But it gets silly when you bring the moving during a grapple rule into play. Each round you can attempt to drag everyone you're currently grappling with half your normal movement speed if you beat all their grapple checks. Grapple checks that they could individually all choose to fail.

    Add that all up, and you get an arbitrary amount of commoners dragging each other at arbitrarily high speeds through nothing other than the power of a group hug.
    Did you want Katamari Damacy? Because that's how you get Katamari Damacy.
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yes, that's why all Teleport spells had their school changed to Conjuration from 3.5 onward - it technically summons a number of ethereal commoners equal to the distance being "teleported" to, who pick up the caster and any objects or other creatures. Higher level casters conjure stronger ethereal commoners, which is how they are able to pick up more creatures, and why size constraints are imposed on creatures being "teleported". Because the ethereal commoners are summoned in a straight line between the departure and arrival destinations, the less the caster knows the location, the higher likelihood the line's angle will be slightly skewed, which accounts for the location mishap possibilities.
    Honestly as a 5e/2e player this does so much to explain the level differential if we say that 3.5 teleport is an effort of how much conjurative power you can borrow (4th level iirc) and in 5e the teleport spell is more of a measure of your own brute strength to accomplish a slightly different formula (7th).

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Did you want Katamari Damacy? Because that's how you get Katamari Damacy.
    Interested in seeing a stat up of a 50 ft wide concentric shell of debris surrounding a radioactive core of commoners...
    Last edited by PattThe; 2020-10-09 at 09:46 PM.
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