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Thread: The Hammer
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2020-08-27, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-27, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Hammer
Yes, that's why all Teleport spells had their school changed to Conjuration from 3.5 onward - it technically summons a number of ethereal commoners equal to the distance being "teleported" to, who pick up the caster and any objects or other creatures. Higher level casters conjure stronger ethereal commoners, which is how they are able to pick up more creatures, and why size constraints are imposed on creatures being "teleported". Because the ethereal commoners are summoned in a straight line between the departure and arrival destinations, the less the caster knows the location, the higher likelihood the line's angle will be slightly skewed, which accounts for the location mishap possibilities.
Last edited by Peelee; 2020-08-27 at 03:52 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-08-28, 09:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Hammer
It doesn't work.
If anybody tried to do it in my game, I would ask the player to state in advance whether he wanted the rules applied with common sense as usual, or just RAW in defiance of common sense. But either way, the stunt doesn't work.
If the DM is applying rules as written in defiance of common sense, then yes, a series of readied actions ("I ready an action to pass the spear forward as soon as it is placed in my hands") would all work, and the spear travels several miles in 6 seconds, at which point it only does 1d6 plus STR bonus of the person at the head of the line, since there is no rule giving it more damage based on its speed before it is thrown.
If the rules are applied with common sense, then either the DM decides how long each transfer takes, and only a certain number can happen in round, and the spear never builds up speed, arriving an hour or more late. Or possibly he decides what DEX roll is necessary for each peasant to catch a spear moving at that speed.
But either way, the peasant rail gun cannot work.
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2020-08-31, 01:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Hammer
If we're examining this with a scientific eye, then the real question is how does Thor's Might work - and what consequences might that have for the physical universe? Is it creating more space between the constituent atoms of the person? Is it enlarging the actual size of the atoms in their body? Or does it simply pull matter from some hidden dimension as extra material to pack into the body of the caster?
And why do weapons and clothes grow along with the person? How does the spell determine what to include? It can't be based simply on objects in contact with the person's body, because if so, surely the ground beneath their feet counts as well. And what if someone was holding hands with the caster - how does the spell differentiate?
Does this mean everything on the caster's body grows in size as well? Like, the bacteria that might be crawling around on their skin? Does this mean we get giant bacteria? And if not, then what about the gut flora within the caster's body - do they not grow along with the caster when the spell is cast?
What if the caster is using Thor's Might and gets impaled by a regular-sized sword while they're giant, and then they shrink back to normal - does the sword that's stuck in their body shrink as well? And if so, what if I'm holding the sword as the caster is shrinking - do I get shrunk down too?
So many questions.
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2020-08-31, 04:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-31, 04:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-31, 08:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Hammer
"If."
Other DMs can rule differently in their games, and that’s fine. But here’s my approach:
I don’t encourage players to examine the world with a modern scientific eye. It reduces the feel of wonder, awe, and mystery, in return for nothing of any game value. The PCs do not have access to Knowledge(modern science).
If my players asked these questions, I would tell them that any time they choose to experiment, they can find out the gross effects of a spell. Cast it sometime with a hammer, then put the hammer down. Try picking something up. They can find out details that way. They will learn that, as with many spells, what stays within the spell area (in this case, an individual’s personal space) stays the same size, but what leaves (a thrown hammer, an arrow) shrinks as soon as it ends its immediate effect (an arrow does large-size damage, then shrinks). But nothing grows except at the time of casting.
Similarly, if they try to include somebody holding hands, or the ground beneath their feet, they will learn that those are outside the limits of the spell, just as many spells have effect limits. You can’t get past the limits of a Charm Person spell by targeting somebody holding hands with someone else, either.
Weapons and clothes grow with growth spells for the same reasons that they turn invisible, teleport, go ethereal, or share other spell effects.
But the PCs have never heard of atoms, bacteria, gut flora, or conservation of mass or energy, and would not believe in them if somebody told them about them. [Correctly, by the way. Physical laws are different, and mass and energy are not conserved. Any Enlarge Person or Fireball spell proves that.]
In short, they can learn about the gross effects of spells by trying the spells and seeing what happens. But they cannot learn any modern scientific laws, in part because they aren’t the laws of that world.
I repeat: other DMs can rule differently in their games, and that’s fine.Last edited by Jay R; 2020-08-31 at 09:00 AM.
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2020-08-31, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-31, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-08-31, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-31, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Hammer
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-08-31, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Hammer
Arrrgh, here be me extended sig!
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2020-08-31, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Hammer
Any method to curate my brilliance and wit is a method I approve of.
Also, super bonus points to anyone who uses Peeleean Teleportation in their game.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-08-31, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-08-31, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Hammer
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-08-31, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-31, 07:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Hammer
Regarding the commoner railgun, there's a slightly more obscure way to break physics that actually will work if you apply the rules rigidly: The supersonic grappleball.
A creature can be grappled by up to 4 other creatures, who can in turn be grappled by up to 4 creatures (including the original). With some basic branching you can fit an infinite number of creatures in a single space all grappling each other. But it gets silly when you bring the moving during a grapple rule into play. Each round you can attempt to drag everyone you're currently grappling with half your normal movement speed if you beat all their grapple checks. Grapple checks that they could individually all choose to fail.
Add that all up, and you get an arbitrary amount of commoners dragging each other at arbitrarily high speeds through nothing other than the power of a group hug.Last edited by RatElemental; 2020-08-31 at 10:24 PM.
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2020-08-31, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-09-15, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-09-16, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Hammer
Since they all act at the same initiative it’s actually a form of quantum entanglement
'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"
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2020-09-16, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Hammer
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-09-16, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Hammer
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-10-06, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Hammer
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2020-10-09, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Hammer
Honestly as a 5e/2e player this does so much to explain the level differential if we say that 3.5 teleport is an effort of how much conjurative power you can borrow (4th level iirc) and in 5e the teleport spell is more of a measure of your own brute strength to accomplish a slightly different formula (7th).
Interested in seeing a stat up of a 50 ft wide concentric shell of debris surrounding a radioactive core of commoners...Last edited by PattThe; 2020-10-09 at 09:46 PM.
@Patt
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2020-11-04, 08:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-04, 08:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-04, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-05, 06:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Hammer
Bah, for what I care, it doesn't work for RAW, either.
The first halfing passes the spear to the second one, consuming his action.
The second one takes the spear that has been passed to him (else it will fall, since no one grasped it) consuming even his action. End of the thing.
It works only as long one permits the "taking ad passing to the next one" as a single action. Which I don't think is a thing that is written on the rules (but surely I can be wrong)
(And of course, it anyway won't do any damage greater than a normal attack at the end, but this was pointed out already)
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2020-11-05, 07:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Hammer
Dropping an item into an adjacent square is a free action, and picking up an item is a move item - so you could pickup an item drop it beside someone else, who then picks it up and does the same.
So perhaps less handing it over and more dropping it for retrieval.
You could also pickup the spear as a move action and throw it as a standard action thereby increasing your range (and reducing the amount of people needed) - you could then attach things to the spear to deliver other items (or people) with it.
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2020-11-05, 08:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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