The Hammer

[Goblin_Priest]

Isn't the use of readied actions an integral part of the Commoner Railgun? If all commoners ready their actions, they're guaranteed to all act instantly the precise moment the stick reaches them.

In either way, things like this illustrate what's the problem with smart-ass loopholes that utilize a mixture of rules taken literally to the exclusion of common sense and real-world science: either the situation works according to RAW rules (in which case, as someone noted, the railgun's damage is exactly the same that it would have if the last commoner in the line was the only one there and just threw the object normally), or things work according to science and/or common sense (as much of it as applicable in a fantasy setting), in which case the stick would only travel each round as much as it should in the real world and attain a velocity that people could pass it with in the real world. (FWIW, I'd say the reasonable way to play it is a mix of the two approaches; RAW by default to make it generally consistent, changing RAW by rule-0 when it stops making sense.)

It's not necessary, but the odds of the millions of commoners rolling initiative in the exact right order are pretty slim otherwise.

Ready action or delay action are both means of circumventing the issue of initiative order.

As for how the object goes so far, that's because passing the weapon is a free action, and free actions are limitless and take no time. Until the GM says "no, that's stupid, enough free actions for this turn".

Another variant of this is the commoner minigun, where you line up your million commoners and give them a bow and 1 arrow each, and they all pass the bow around to shoot a million arrows in a round, scoring at least 50 000 hits on average, more if the AC is relatively low. Bonus if the bow is magical.

[The Pilgrim]

Another variant of this is the commoner minigun, where you line up your million commoners and give them a bow and 1 arrow each, and they all pass the bow around to shoot a million arrows in a round, scoring at least 50 000 hits on average, more if the AC is relatively low. Bonus if the bow is magical.

Wouldn't be the same if each commoner had his own bow? With the benefit of not having to bend the rules.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wouldn't be the same if each commoner had his own bow? With the benefit of not having to bend the rules.

You'd have to bend the rules a lot, even with a bow per person (I suspect the idea is to save money, in any case, by not having to buy a million bows). A million peasants, each occupying one five-by-five foot square, uses up a lot of space - 25 million square feet. In proper units, that's about 230 hectares. At some point (200 rows deep, if my math is right), maximum range of the bow is going to come into play for the ranks furthest from the target. That means the peasants need to be a square around the target, 400 peasants to the side - 160,000 total. The rest can't reach.

GW

[RatElemental]

You'd have to bend the rules a lot, even with a bow per person (I suspect the idea is to save money, in any case, by not having to buy a million bows). A million peasants, each occupying one five-by-five foot square, uses up a lot of space - 25 million square feet. In proper units, that's about 230 hectares. At some point (200 rows deep, if my math is right), maximum range of the bow is going to come into play for the ranks furthest from the target. That means the peasants need to be a square around the target, 400 peasants to the side - 160,000 total. The rest can't reach.

GW

Unless all the peasants are grappling each other and are thus all taking up a single 5 by 5 foot space. Might need to have designated grapplers holding people who actually have bows depending on if you can grapple while wielding a two handed weapon. The grapple rules are an arcane monstrosity but it seems like the only consequence relevant to attacking someone outside of the grapple from within it are that you don't threaten any squares and thus can't get aoos.

Plus then your makeshift siege engine made of meat can still move arbitrarily fast in addition to making arbitrary numbers of attacks per round.

[tomaO2]

Shouldn't you be able to fit a an army in a strict formation into grapple range? Two people should be able to fit in a single 5 foot space, if all they are doing is long distance volley firing on the enemy. The 5 foot aspect is more important when you are fighting a tactical battle with a smaller number if units, and don't want to be tripping all over each other. Doing it this way could have some sort of penalty if they come under attack themselves, of course. Less able to maneuver.

I've been doing some work on an RPG game that works on tower defense rules. Mainly all units fight on a road, so only the vanguard forces are engaging in melee. Archers at, the back of the line, can also fire ahead. The firing range is important for that. If most units are sticking in a formation like this, and you can get around 1000 units, it matters if they all get a 5' space, or if you can squeeze them together a bit.

My current thinking is to allow the vanguard of the army a bit extra space to fight, but group the other units. Two units 2 fitting into 5 foot spaces allows for effective archery from the backs, which works better for the system I came up with.

[PattThe]

Unless all the peasants are grappling each other and are thus all taking up a single 5 by 5 foot space. Might need to have designated grapplers holding people who actually have bows depending on if you can grapple while wielding a two handed weapon. The grapple rules are an arcane monstrosity but it seems like the only consequence relevant to attacking someone outside of the grapple from within it are that you don't threaten any squares and thus can't get aoos.

Plus then your makeshift siege engine made of meat can still move arbitrarily fast in addition to making arbitrary numbers of attacks per round.

Has anyone made the Halo Reach beta Assasination train joke yet? XD

Also, can we get anything more hilarious going on with different sized creatures? Could you deliver this singularity within the space of one chest and deliver a nuclear explosion of grappled compressed mass using Dimunutive or Tiny creatures grappling one another?
Constructs or undead so they don't need food and can grapple indefinitely?
If rules allow infinite creatures in a 5 foot space do they allow that same infinity in an enclosed object's space?

[RatElemental]

Has anyone made the Halo Reach beta Assasination train joke yet? XD

Also, can we get anything more hilarious going on with different sized creatures? Could you deliver this singularity within the space of one chest and deliver a nuclear explosion of grappled compressed mass using Dimunutive or Tiny creatures grappling one another?
Constructs or undead so they don't need food and can grapple indefinitely?
If rules allow infinite creatures in a 5 foot space do they allow that same infinity in an enclosed object's space?

Not sure what that is.

Different sized creatures have mostly the same applications, I guess.

D&D does not try to simulate real world physics if you're using only raw, compressing an infinite amount of creatures into one space won't cause a singularity.

I guess they could grapple each other but it's not really all that different from a bunch of peasants doing it, other than a PC Dread Necromancer might actually have enough minions to make it a good way to store them all.

Yes.

Additionally, if you fireballed the ball of peasants they would explode out, each corpse suddenly being shunted to the nearest open 5 foot space since they are no longer grappling one another. This can happen even through solid walls. Handy trick if you want to play some psy ops with an enemy kingdom I suppose.

[rbetieh]

Another variant of this is the commoner minigun, where you line up your million commoners and give them a bow and 1 arrow each, and they all pass the bow around to shoot a million arrows in a round, scoring at least 50 000 hits on average, more if the AC is relatively low. Bonus if the bow is magical.

Too bad they cant pass around some tumbler of infinite beer and get this party off the rails instantly

[Goblin_Priest]

Wouldn't be the same if each commoner had his own bow? With the benefit of not having to bend the rules.

You'd have to bend the rules a lot, even with a bow per person (I suspect the idea is to save money, in any case, by not having to buy a million bows). A million peasants, each occupying one five-by-five foot square, uses up a lot of space - 25 million square feet. In proper units, that's about 230 hectares. At some point (200 rows deep, if my math is right), maximum range of the bow is going to come into play for the ranks furthest from the target. That means the peasants need to be a square around the target, 400 peasants to the side - 160,000 total. The rest can't reach.

GW

I'm not sure about the rules on allies sharing a same space, but yea, the idea would be to save costs. While the gain isn't huge with a mundane bow, it is exponential with a magical bow. As for the quantity that can fit within range, there's:

Distance

This property can only be placed on a ranged weapon. A weapon of distance has double the range increment of other weapons of its kind.

Moderate divination; CL 6th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, clairaudience/clairvoyance; Price +1 bonus.

A +1 distance mighty composite longbow can shoot quite far. 110ft base range, double to 220ft, and bows can shoot up to 5 range increments, so 1100ft. Against a 5x5 opponent, that allows for 194,480 commoners to shoot him in a turn. Assuming flat terrain. More if you've got multiple levels of engagement, or larger opponents. Technically, significantly less once you account for diagonals, but I don't really feel like doing that. You can certainly augment that number to literally past a million if you find a cheesy way to stack the commoners in all three dimensions, such as having the fight occur on the astral plane.

In some cases, you can increase the range even more, with feats for example. Additionally, you can increase the gains by increasing the enhancement bonuses on the bow, either with damage perks like flat +1s, some energy damage, or adding stuff like Seeking to bypass additional defenses. You could never fund a whole army to wield +5 seeking range ghost touch composite longbows, but any nation could at least afford a single one, which would allow it to blast pretty much any enemy into oblivion.

[rbetieh]

I'm not sure about the rules on allies sharing a same space, but yea, the idea would be to save costs. While the gain isn't huge with a mundane bow, it is exponential with a magical bow. As for the quantity that can fit within range, there's:



A +1 distance mighty composite longbow can shoot quite far. 110ft base range, double to 220ft, and bows can shoot up to 5 range increments, so 1100ft. Against a 5x5 opponent, that allows for 194,480 commoners to shoot him in a turn. Assuming flat terrain. More if you've got multiple levels of engagement, or larger opponents. Technically, significantly less once you account for diagonals, but I don't really feel like doing that. You can certainly augment that number to literally past a million if you find a cheesy way to stack the commoners in all three dimensions, such as having the fight occur on the astral plane.

In some cases, you can increase the range even more, with feats for example. Additionally, you can increase the gains by increasing the enhancement bonuses on the bow, either with damage perks like flat +1s, some energy damage, or adding stuff like Seeking to bypass additional defenses. You could never fund a whole army to wield +5 seeking range ghost touch composite longbows, but any nation could at least afford a single one, which would allow it to blast pretty much any enemy into oblivion.

First I learn that teleport is just a bunch of peasants carrying you at instant speed, now I learn that Missile Storm is just a bunch of peasants shooting bows and arrows.

[Peelee]

First I learn that teleport is just a bunch of peasants carrying you at instant speed, now I learn that Missile Storm is just a bunch of peasants shooting bows and arrows.

Magic is just a bunch of peasants in various situations. It's peasants all the way down.

[rbetieh]

Magic is just a bunch of peasants in various situations. It's peasants all the way down.

You come from a world where magic and peasants are one and the same?

[dancrilis]

You come from a world where magic and peasants are one and the same?

DnD supports it - that is one of the reasons that so many spells have a gold value attached to them, you have to pay the peasants (the other spells are basically free samples they offer).

[rbetieh]

DnD supports it - that is one of the reasons that so many spells have a gold value attached to them, you have to pay the peasants (the other spells are basically free samples they offer).

Pharaohs, even without a lick of Int, Wis, or Cha, are the true Sorcerer Kings of DnD. Look how well they use Stone Shape.

[Riftwolf]

Shouldn't you be able to fit a an army in a strict formation into grapple range? Two people should be able to fit in a single 5 foot space, if all they are doing is long distance volley firing on the enemy. The 5 foot aspect is more important when you are fighting a tactical battle with a smaller number if units, and don't want to be tripping all over each other. Doing it this way could have some sort of penalty if they come under attack themselves, of course. Less able to maneuver.

I've been doing some work on an RPG game that works on tower defense rules. Mainly all units fight on a road, so only the vanguard forces are engaging in melee. Archers at, the back of the line, can also fire ahead. The firing range is important for that. If most units are sticking in a formation like this, and you can get around 1000 units, it matters if they all get a 5' space, or if you can squeeze them together a bit.
was g
My current thinking is to allow the vanguard of the army a bit extra space to fight, but group the other units. Two units 2 fitting into 5 foot spaces allows for effective archery from the backs, which works better for the system I came up with.

If you try to fit an entire army into grapple range, Ursakar Creed will hide something in the centre of the scrum.