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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Getting back to bladesingers...

    Do you folks that have played a bladesinger to higher levels find yourself being more of a spellcaster or are you still mixing it up in melee?

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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by McSkrag View Post
    Getting back to bladesingers...

    Do you folks that have played a bladesinger to higher levels find yourself being more of a spellcaster or are you still mixing it up in melee?
    I used to mix it up in melee. Long duration buffs give you a lot of mileage out of melee and there are some enemy types where it's just plain convenient to be able to beat them up. Rakshasa, as already mentioned, but in general things with all manners of magic immunity or such.
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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Magic Jar literally says "take that statblock and make it yours" so any DM worth their salt... Will be houseruling it your way.
    Shadar Kai is a playable elf race. So anything not in the PC race write is the result of training and practice.....the same things captured by the concept of Class.

    A Shadow Dancer is emulating a monk.
    A Gloom Weaver is emulating a warlock.

    Any DM worth their salt recognizes this....

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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by Satori01 View Post
    Shadar Kai is a playable elf race. So anything not in the PC race write is the result of training and practice.....the same things captured by the concept of Class.

    A Shadow Dancer is emulating a monk.
    A Gloom Weaver is emulating a warlock.

    Any DM worth their salt recognizes this....
    Except that not only those have no listed class levels or features, they have some abilities that are different from any class you can think of- like attacking twice plus a spell in the GW's case. The only thing you could make a case on for removal if any would be the spellcasting (a wizard capable of Magic Jaring a Gloom Weaver probably doesn't particularly care of the warlocks' three slots and cantrips anyway. Useful but not by much).
    Last edited by Valmark; 2020-08-30 at 08:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    No creature has "class levels" this is not 3e.
    What many creatures have are features that emulate PC abilities.
    A goblin Veteran was not born with multiple attacks, the veteran gained those extra attacks through training and experience.

    A troll is born with 3 attacks.
    The Shadar Kai Shadow Dancer has hallmarks that indicate that it is a Monk of the Way of Shadow, but balanced to be an opponent.

    The Shadow Dancer was not born with mastery of shadows and chains. The category of humanoids, typically indicate creatures that experience reality similar to humans.

    Back to Bladesingers.......when using spell slots to reduce damage, how high of a slot do people typically spend?
    Last edited by Satori01; 2020-08-31 at 12:10 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by McSkrag View Post
    Do you folks that have played a bladesinger to higher levels find yourself being more of a spellcaster or are you still mixing it up in melee?
    I still mix it up in melee, but only because by later levels I've always multiclassed into eldritch knight or arcane trickster to support that play style. I've never played a bladesinger that didn't end up multiclassing for that reason. Straight bladesinger is too much a wizard, and if I wanted to be that much of a wizard then I'm not looking to mess around with melee or weapon attacks, not at high levels certainly.


    I find that the bladesinger suffers from the issue that other gishy subclasses of full caster classes suffer from in 5e - that so much of the caster identity is tied up in the one thing subclasses never sacrifice - full caster spell list & progression - that these subclasses never really feel like proper blends of martial and magical ability, and instead just end up as full casters but with better AC, which effectively means full casters with extra spell slots since they don't have to spend as many spells on defense. Examples of this issues apart from bladesinger include valor bard and hexblade warlock. All these classes can kind of sort of do the melee thing, particularly at lower levels, and particularly the hexblade, but all of them are more mechanically effective when simply played as caster classes with better, non-spell-slot based defensive abilities.

    The issue mostly comes down to diferent classes not putting the same weight on subclasses. Martial and half-caster classes tend to have a lot more involved subclasses - granting more powerful and more numerous features throughout the character's career, enough so that trading that away is a real cost that can effectively balance against a partial spell progression. Caster Classes get most of their features in the form of base class spell progression, so their subclasses are more limited, granting flavor, maybe pushing towards particular spell selections, but not defining the character's play style like a martial subclass can. A caster subclass simply doesn't have enough meat to trade for the martial aspects a real melee combatant needs without going over the top (bladesinger can pull it off, but look at the constant 'bladesinger is overpowered' complaint threads).

    A bit of multiclassing does even that out, though. I don't really like how Bladesinger works on it's own (it's not weak or bad or anything, just doesn't deliver what I want out of the class), but it works great when mixed with either eldritch knight or arcane trickster. Better than any of those subclasses work on their own, imo. It doesn't take a lot of multiclassing for a bladesinger to get the abilities they want to work well in melee, and by multiclassing they take the needed hit to caster progression to balance out the trade. For tanking or damage oriented warrior type gishing I prefer Charisma class combinations in 5e, but Arcane Trickster 3+ / Bladesinger 2+ is my go to whenever I'm in a party that needs a sneakthief/trapfixer. It plays well up to level 5, and from levels 6+ you can go full trickster, full singer, near about any mix of the two, or even add in some eldritch knight. Lots of variety and plays well.

    It's not really surprising or a bad thing that an inherently multiclass-type character concept like the gish works best as a multiclass character, so I'm not exactly annoyed at the Bladesinger for not being exactly what I want it to be on its own, but there it is.
    Last edited by Sception; 2020-08-31 at 08:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Hi, I got a Bladesinger up to level 17 in Adventurer's League. I even wrote a guide about it: Inquisitor Lim's Guide to the Bladesinger. I've played other Bladesinger in home/Discord games as well, though not as continually and to high level as that. Some things about the Bladesinger:

    1) My first-ever long-term Bladesinger was a High Elf that started with a 8 STR / 15 (17) DEX / 15 CON / 15 (16) INT / 8 WIS / 8 CHA. First ASI went into patching up DEX and CON, second ASI went into Warcaster (which ended up being something of a waste except for the concentration bonus), third and fourth ASI went into INT. If I ever got to level 19, last ASI would've gone into DEX. Racial selection is very important, but both High Elf and Half-Elf will eventually give you 20/20 for DEX and INT along with a feat. I have no idea what that poster was talking about Elf being a bad race for Bladesinger. Any race where you can come out of CharGen with at least a 16 INT and a 16 DEX/CON is at bare minimum a good wizard race, even if they get nothing else. The only PHB race that's better than High Elf/Half-Elf for Wizard is Variant Human, which is more about how OP Variant Humans are than Elves.

    2) Survival in melee is ironically more problematic for low-level Bladesingers than mid-level and high-level Bladesingers. A critical hit WILL take you out for most of the game. The thing is that by the time your toolbox expands enough to shut out stray critical hits and Fire Giants rolling a 17 for both of their Greatsword attacks, your melee capabilities vis-a-vis regular ol' spellcasting may fall apart. Emphasis on may. See point three.

    That shifts somewhere around T2. By mid-T2, you can actually eat a critical hit from a bruiser monster without dropping to 0 instantly. More important, your spellcasting has become more capable. You not only have enough slots for stuff like Shield, but also Protection from Evil and Good, Blur, Haste, and Greater Invis. By the time you get to T3, you can have a total shutout defensive spell but still have enough spell slots to use non-concentration butt-kicking spells like Transmute Rock and Lightning Bolt and Blindness/Deafness.

    3) The Bladesinger performs best in setups with extended workdays, the so-called 4-6 non-trivial combat encounters per long rest. Being able to Shadow Blade And Chill, or Blur And Chill, with a second-level spell slot at level 6 gave me a level of endurance that other wizards, and even spellcasting martials, just straight-up didn't have.

    The Bladesinger will still not be a poorly performing build in tables with short workdays. However, it's been my experience that other wizard builds like the Evoker / Illusionist / Chronurgist / Diviner will just straight-up perform better if you frequently get a long rest between every encounter.

    4) A lot of perceptions about the Bladesinger's melee capabilities, especially in late T2 or T3, revolve around what kind of magical items drop. If magical items beyond the stray +1 Rapier aren't really available, then your character is going to drift towards more pure spellcasting as the game gos on. But if magical items do start dropping, that's a completely different story.

    If these magical items drop, your build will be pushed towards melee capabilities:
    • Bracers of Armor. I got one early in Storm King's Thunder for my first long-term Bladesinger. That +2 bonus to AC combined with Protection from Evil and Good (when I wasn't playing the character in the SKT hardcover), Blur, or Haste made me unhittable unless I rolled poorly for initiative.
    • Any of the Giant Strength Belts
    • A good magical weapon, especially a Sunblade or a Flametongue
    • Ring of Spell Storing -- these are a huge deal if you have a Tiny Servant / familiar / homunculus in your party.


    If these magical items drop, yeah, then Bladesinger should definitely consider going full-time in the melee buttkicking department. I had Bracers of Armor and a Ring of Spell Storing (a trade) right after Xanathar's came out. Level 11, I had Contingency + L5 Shadow Blade plus my Familiar backing me up with some Haste action, it was disgusting. 12d8+12 and then later +15 damage for a trivial expenditure of resources? Hell yeah.

    Now, I know it's taboo in the world of Character Optimization to talk about magical item drops, because you can't really control them unless you play in Adventurer's League. That said, Bladesinger builds hinge so much on magical item available -- unless other Wizard builds like the Illusionist and even Necromancer -- that it's something you have to take into consideration.

    5) I like a good Theoretical OP discussion too, but seriously? Magic Jar shenanigans? Give it a rest, kid. No, I don't care about how well you covered the logistics of getting the 'right' body and carting your body, no DM is going to let you do that. Please stop wasting our time unironically discussing it as if it's a real thing you can do to make your character better. You may as well tell us about your plan to slip the DM a 50 dollar bill to drop you a Moonblade, except that straight-up bribery has a better chance of working.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    5) I like a good Theoretical OP discussion too, but seriously? Magic Jar shenanigans? Give it a rest, kid. No, I don't care about how well you covered the logistics of getting the 'right' body and carting your body, no DM is going to let you do that. Please stop wasting our time unironically discussing it as if it's a real thing you can do to make your character better. You may as well tell us about your plan to slip the DM a 50 dollar bill to drop you a Moonblade, except that straight-up bribery has a better chance of working.
    I would appreciate a separate thread for discussing Magic Jar. Several new Wizard subclasses are about to become official and the spell is of interest to Chronurgists in particular.

    For reference, here is how Stack Exchange parses Magic Jar.

    Resolving Magic Jar

    Unless I am mistaken, Eladriel isn't talking about shenanigans. He is actually just talking about using it according to the spell description to possess bodies.

    Spells are meant to be used. They are also meant to be used according to their description, which is what Eladriel is advocating. If I understand you correctly, you seem to be having issue with players who choose to use a spell on the Wizard's spell list and seek to use it according to the spell description. Can you elaborate on why you are having trouble with basic use of a spell in the PHB?
    Last edited by ThorOdinson; 2020-10-06 at 05:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    Can you elaborate on why you are having trouble with basic use of a spell in the PHB?
    You mean other than the one particularly OP combination he came up with not being regularly available on the plane of existence he had access to, or the fact that those "creatures" are clearly humanoids with experience (all of which gets erased when you take over their body) or require the use of an item so strong everyone and their mother would be murdering elite Shadar-Kai to claim them if they were usable by anyone but them and actually existed as items in the game, or the fact that any wizard at all can benefit from magic jar and that, once again, bladesingers are great in later Tiers because they are wizards.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    Spells are meant to be used. They are also meant to be used according to their description, which is what Eladriel is advocating. If I understand you correctly, you seem to be having issue with players who choose to use a spell on the Wizard's spell list and seek to use it according to the spell description. Can you elaborate on why you are having trouble with basic use of a spell in the PHB?
    Because it requires massive amounts of cooperation with the DM at almost every step of the way for the end result of breaking the game. The long-term bodyjacking exploit of a rare and particular monster use of Magic Jar is just not workable. It's like designing your party around the use of Summon Woodland Beings: Pixie, except that it's even more extreme because Magic Jar has additional veto points that the Summon Woodland Beings trick does not have.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    Because it requires massive amounts of cooperation with the DM at almost every step of the way for the end result of breaking the game. The long-term bodyjacking exploit of a rare and particular monster use of Magic Jar is just not workable. It's like designing your party around the use of Summon Woodland Beings: Pixie, except that it's even more extreme because Magic Jar has additional veto points that the Summon Woodland Beings trick does not have.
    To be honest it's harder to summon pixies than going to the Shadowfell or wherever it is Shadar-Kais live and steal one.

    And to be fair if you are going to talk magic items you might as well talk Magic Jar. There isn't that much difference regarding DM dependancy.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    To be honest it's harder to summon pixies than going to the Shadowfell or wherever it is Shadar-Kais live and steal one.
    While it's RAW that the DM picks the monsters from Conjure Animals/Woodland Beings, most DMs will let you pick your summons until you abuse it -- because it saves them and the table a lot of time. All the same, Summon Woodland Creatures for pixies is still not a workable plan. If you want to summon Pixies, you need to A) know about them (plausible), B) have the spell (possible), and C) have the DM agree to let you select their summons (not guaranteed, but it's a common houserule). And even then, pretty much every guide with Summon Woodland Creatures will tell you that you may get away with this plan a maximum of ONE time before your DM either starts deciding your summons for you or tells you 'lol no, pick something else'.

    Getting a Shadar Kai has even more hurdles than that. First of all, you need to be in the right campaign setting. That is, a campaign setting that not only has the Shadowfell but also the Shadowfell as we know it. If your DM is running a custom campaign, it might not have the Shadowfell at all. Or it might technically have the Shadowfell in it, but DMs will understandably be cagey about you spending an extended amount of time there, because it ruins the theme of the campaign. Then you need a way to actually get there; Magic Jar is L11, Plane shift is L13. And Plane Shift is not going to help you if you don't know of a major landmark in the Shadowfell. If you don't, that's another expedition you need to make. Then you need to find the appropriate Shadar-Kai. Gloom Weavers are CR9, NPCs like that don't grow on trees. THEN you need to actually find an appropriate victim. If the Shadar-Kai is something like a favored servant of royalty or the magocracy, you or your party may not want to go through with the plan. And then you might have to deal with the party paladin chopping off your original's body head and getting rid of your summon because, like Animate Dead, a lot of players in-game and out-of-game have understandable ethical objections to permanent bodysnatching.

    And that's just the actual bodysnatching logistics. I haven't even gotten into the ongoing logistics or how it's questionable whether Magic Jar will even let you get away with stealing certain Shadar Kai traits.

    Magic Jar for that purpose not only will invite the same 'lol no' nerf, but it ALSO has like 10 points where the DM and party have to go along with you. And if they say 'no' to any of those points, your plan fails.

    Anyone advocating this strategy is irresponsible to the point where their advice on character optimization should be discarded -- you're encouraging people to go down a path where they put the campaign on pause, argue repeatedly with the DM, and then earn the suspicion of their party members. And I have no tolerance for fake-optimizers saying that we should go along this ridiculous plan.
    Last edited by Deathtongue; 2020-10-05 at 12:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    Anyone advocating this strategy is irresponsible to the point where their advice on character optimization should be discarded -- you're encouraging people to go down a path where they put the campaign on pause, argue repeatedly with the DM, and then earn the suspicion of their party members. And I have no tolerance for fake-optimizers saying that we should go along this ridiculous plan.
    I think you're letting your emotions get the best of you here - the position you hold here seems quite harsh for no logical reason. Longterm bodysnatching isn't that big of a deal if you have something worth stealing on board. It can actually be incredibly worthwhile; it's just campaign dependent in that it's optimal to have a campaign with high power humanoids you'd be killing anyways. Just takeover a body instead to empower your party and go from there. There is, after all, a reason the spell has a permanent duration: just to this end.

    The exact benefits you can get through Magic are is heavily campaign dependent, that much is true. But I've yet to play a campaign with no high level NPCs. And all it takes to use Magic Jar in this manner is to knock one of those unconscious instead of killing them and then taking the time to setup a hostile body takeover: not really that far from what it takes to produce some Planar Bound minions or a Simulacrum or whatever. It is also however by far the strongest buff effect available on its level pretty much regardless of what high CR humanoid corpse you acquire and most of those generally make you naturally an extremely competent combatant simply due to its permanent duration and lack of Concentration. If we're talking about optimal performance for a given level, it would be folly to ignore a spell that lets you get a permanent body upgrade. While it might or might not be houseruled often, it's still there much like Simulacrum and Contingency and Shapechange and True Polymorph and all the other magical high level bull****. And while there are certainly tables where it might face any number of DM obstacles, there are obviously also plenty of tables where it will work simply and with no problem.

    And as always in online discussions, the closer the discussion sticks to RAW the better simply because there's no common arbiter so any departures to more subjective rulings and table-specific considerations will lead to lesser common ground between the participants. It can of course be valuable to consider what the reality of the game is: if no table ever allows you to use a spell, then clearly it isn't as valuable as it might first seem but if it's this unclear "Yes/No/Maybe"-split, which seems to be the case here, that isn't that valuable a consideration, at least not to the point that the spell should be ignored entirely. RAW it is the strongest option available for its level and thus if we consider what's the optimal range of what can be accomplished on a given level, it needs to be given its due considerations in spite of its exact effects being a bit harder to pinpoint due to the difficulty of ascertaining what's the best you can access in any given campaign at any given cost.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    I think you're letting your emotions get the best of you here - the position you hold here seems quite harsh for no logical reason. Longterm bodysnatching isn't that big of a deal if you have something worth stealing on board. It can actually be incredibly worthwhile; it's just campaign dependent in that it's optimal to have a campaign with high power humanoids you'd be killing anyways. Just takeover a body instead to empower your party and go from there. There is, after all, a reason the spell has a permanent duration: just to this end.
    I have a personal problem with character optimization advice which requires you to A) being in a campaign where the DM goes nice on you by not being a Gygaxian control freak and B) use this kindness to abuse your DM's trust and make your character better. Because B) is what leads to the ending of A).

    Using crap like Summon Woodland Beings to dump a bunch of pixies onto the field isn't a 'ha ha, you little scamp' moment. Go too far with your optimization, especially if it's something convoluted and requiring DM cooperation, will permanently sour your DM's attitude towards your optimization; not just at that session or even campaign, but at that table. Anytime you want to do something slightly convoluted or unusual, you've now subjected your plan to audits and line-item vetoes that will result in unnecessary nerfs. Even more unforgivably, now you're subjecting your teammates to this kind of Gygaxian scrutiny as well.

    And I seriously have no patience for advice that results in 'piss your DM off and make the CharOP community look like wheedling parasites'.
    Last edited by Deathtongue; 2020-10-05 at 02:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    I have a personal problem with character optimization advice which requires you to A) being in a campaign where the DM goes nice on you by not being a Gygaxian control freak and B) use this kindness to abuse your DM's trust and make your character better. Because B) is what leads to the ending of A).

    Using crap like Summon Woodland Beings to dump a bunch of pixies onto the field isn't a 'ha ha, you little scamp' moment. Go too far with your optimization, especially if it's something convoluted and requiring DM cooperation, will permanently sour your DM's attitude towards your optimization; not just at that session or even campaign, but at that table. Anytime you want to do something slightly convoluted or unusual, you've now subjected your plan to audits and line-item vetoes that will result in unnecessary nerfs. Even more unforgivably, now you're subjecting your teammates to this kind of Gygaxian scrutiny as well.

    And I seriously have no patience for advice that results in 'piss your DM off and make the CharOP community look like wheedling parasites'.
    There's a big difference between Magic Jar and Summon Pixies though: Magic Jar bodysnatching is the main function of the spell. With its cast time and other limitations, it's really hard to use it to do much else. It has some other weird edgecase uses like using personal buffs on other characters and such but those are generally not very slot efficient - and then stealing somebody's body for a while to accomplish something social but at that point, why not just keep it for good. It's explicitly permanent and non-Concentration. Meanwhile, Woodland Beings has plenty of uses beyond Pixies and it's not even natively under your control to summon Pixies with it. That is to say, the spell can be allowed without expecting it to be used for Pixies and RAW it just doesn't do that. If Magic Jar is allowed, however, its primary use is taking over bodies and RAW it works to that end only and you'd kinda have to rewrite the spell to make it do much else.

    I don't think it specifically relies on DM kindness like Pixies do; the spell works that way as written and the spell more or less only does that as written whereas summoning pixies is a weird edgecase of a very open-ended spell. All it takes is for campaign to include high level NPC enemies, which tend to be more or less a given. Taking over a Githyanki or Drow or Orc or whatever of high level tends to function and you take them out as functio officio generally. I'd be totally down for using Magic Jar into high-powered bodies under a Gygaxian DM. If my soul blew up due to a trap in the new body, well, that's life in such a game - at least it'd be splendid. Of course, if the DM simply said that you only get a level 1 body and all NPC-powers are class-based that'd be perfectly okay too but in that case it's less about being a control freak and more about balancing the spell with houserules (which, incidentally, I'd much rather the DM do than just try to "softban it" because the boundaries of softban in the case of this spell are so unclear as to be useless since you don't necessarily even know what kinds of goodies you're getting until after you use it limiting your ability to self-regulate it much unlike with Summon Pixies where you, if given the room to choose, have perfect control over what you're getting).

    Whether the spell is too good is, as such, another matter from DM style per ce. I'd rate it less problematic than Simulacrum (which I never allow as written myself - I go with the 3e version of the clone being half as powerful as the original WRT to spell slots, spell-likes and such; still hideously powerful but slightly less so) but higher than most things when used in this manner, which is of course problematic. Permanent bonuses in general are problematic and when they can be this massive (and this random), it really depends. Of course, OTOH, it's just numbers, which ultimately aren't the primary thing making you obscenely ridiculous in this game (which is why I think Simulacrum is the worse offender), so I could see it allowed on balance reasons just fine letting you essentially "gish it up" by just stealing a combat-conditioned body.


    In short, if the game allows Simulacrum as written I see no reason not to include Magic Jar in the considerations too. I don't think your worries are really substantiated: unlike summoning pixies, magic jaring isn't really something the DM actively has to enable nor something that can really be prevented without altering RAW. If the DM is cool with Simulacrum, chances are Magic Jar is not going to phase them either, too. That's simply a high-powered game where such things are at home.
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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    In short, if the game allows Simulacrum as written I see no reason not to include Magic Jar in the considerations too. I don't think your worries are really substantiated: unlike summoning pixies, magic jaring isn't really something the DM actively has to enable nor something that can really be prevented without altering RAW. If the DM is cool with Simulacrum, chances are Magic Jar is not going to phase them either, too. That's simply a high-powered game where such things are at home.
    Yeah, I think that's Deathtongue's point. If your DM allows ridiculous chain Simulacrum armies, then here's your Wizard class guide: "Summon an infinite army of Simulacra."

    Suggesting that as a realistic option is silly and should be relegated to 'fun RAW tricks' threads instead of serious CharOp. Most Magic Jar shenanigans fall into the same bucket; assuming a DM that would let you do that (and that the rest of your table wouldn't just leave in boredom) is equally serious as assuming a DM that lets you choose unlimited custom magic items.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by BMF View Post
    Yeah, I think that's Deathtongue's point. If your DM allows ridiculous chain Simulacrum armies, then here's your Wizard class guide: "Summon an infinite army of Simulacra."

    Suggesting that as a realistic option is silly and should be relegated to 'fun RAW tricks' threads instead of serious CharOp. Most Magic Jar shenanigans fall into the same bucket; assuming a DM that would let you do that (and that the rest of your table wouldn't just leave in boredom) is equally serious as assuming a DM that lets you choose unlimited custom magic items.
    I'm not talking about a Simulacrum army but a single Simulacrum. I think a single Simulacrum incapable of producing more is more powerful than Magic Jar in its most extreme uses. That spell is positively absurd, capable of almost doubling your power at worst.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2020-10-05 at 04:15 PM.
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    I'm not talking about a Simulacrum army but a single Simulacrum. I think a single Simulacrum incapable of producing more is more powerful than Magic Jar in its most extreme uses. That spell is positively absurd, capable of almost doubling your power at worst.
    I misunderstood your point then, apologies. I'm not sure if you're right or not, but it is a reasonable take. I do think that there's something that feels different about a single Simulacrum vs. Magic Jar or True Polymorph shenanigans. Maybe it's just that the Simulacrum makes the wizard more powerful but does not change its fundamental nature in a way that so obviously makes the rest of the party extemporaneous.

    It might be interesting to read a CharOp guide (which I am not qualified to write) on something like "How to Use Simulacrum/Magic Jar/True Polymorph in a Way That Is Useful But Isn't Likely To Result in Your Group Disbanding."

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    It's safe to assume you are going to tell your DM/your DM is going to see Magic Jar on your spellbook and tell you wether that spell is good or not to use. Beyond that, everything can be handled in game- your party agreeing or not, then the actual get-your-body thing. You can't abuse your DM's trust when they need to explicitely tell you yes.

    As a player, I've seen plenty of DMs not give you the ability to choose summons- and assuming my character has nothing against it I'd have no problems helping the wizard find a MJ prey. As a DM, I would easily allow both the Pixie army AND Magic Jar, even that shenanigan- it's nothing game-breaking. I'm the DM, there is nothing I can't make up to keep the challenge up, let the players have their fun. Even if you don't get that specific NPC, any strong NPC will do (and again, 'removing traits that are experience based' is an house-rule. You can at most say this about non-innate spellcasting).

    Hell, 8 Pixies aren't even that big of a deal. SWB is kind of... Ehw otherwise. Playing a Sheperd Druid currently and I used it once as novelty, then forgot about it. On the same vein, if you don't want your wizard Magic Jaring people... Don't give them people to Magic Jar. Simple as that.

    For completition, let's keep in mind that you just need a Dispel Magic to erase MJ. Any DM taking offense from a player using that spell is either a DM that didn't read the spell or a DM that doesn't know how to fit level 5+ spellcasters against a party of level 11+.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    You're a full wizard with pretty good defense and protection against losing concentration - I'd be concentrating on something every important fight. I like to divide and conquer - so levitate, suggest, hyp pattern, banishment, polymorph, wall of force - and then melee instead of firebolting or nuking. You can always fireball if the enemy bunches up and you can burn them without hurting the party, instead of meleeing that round. Play this class flexibly. Just melee when it makes sense to do that - melee and cast when that makes sense - just cast when that makes sense.

    Sometimes you can't bladesong - you know you can't short rest, and the current fight looks like a mook fight w/ a boss fight probably coming up next, and you only have one bladesong left. Better be a normal caster and hang back for this fight.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    I'm not talking about a Simulacrum army but a single Simulacrum. I think a single Simulacrum incapable of producing more is more powerful than Magic Jar in its most extreme uses. That spell is positively absurd, capable of almost doubling your power at worst.
    Magic Jar: Shadar-Kai requires cooperation with the DM in order to make it work, only to turn around and then stab the DM in the back. You're asking the DM to put the campaign on pause while you come up with a Scooby-Doo plan to hunt down a specific NPC that may not even exist in the campaign setting. Or even if they do theoretically exist, you're asking your DM to spend their time sketching out the sociopolitics of a plane down to demographics -- not because it's important for character development or you feel that Shadar-Kai bodyjacking adds to the thematics of a campaign, but just because you want to wish yourself more power. It's incredibly disruptive both in time and campaign thematics -- if your adventure is about exploring the Underdark or out-maneuvering the other pirates or organizing a city's defenses against the Darklord's army, you're breaking the theme of the campaign to cheese yourself more power.

    Simulacrum doesn't require that kind of campaign-derailing sojourn nor does it require relentless DM cooperation. The biggest snags are money and availability to ice. You're not asking your DM to rewrite a large sector of their campaign and/or asking them to handwave the obstacles to you getting a bodyjack.

  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    It's safe to assume you are going to tell your DM/your DM is going to see Magic Jar on your spellbook and tell you wether that spell is good or not to use. Beyond that, everything can be handled in game- your party agreeing or not, then the actual get-your-body thing. You can't abuse your DM's trust when they need to explicitely tell you yes.
    If you're using Magic Jar to just possess any physically hardcore humanoid jamoke you come across, that's one thing. I don't recommend it, but it isn't as actively disruptive to the campaign nor requires as much DM cooperation nor putting the campaign on pause as 'BRB, going to the Shadowlands'.

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    If you're using Magic Jar to just possess any physically hardcore humanoid jamoke you come across, that's one thing. I don't recommend it, but it isn't as actively disruptive to the campaign nor requires as much DM cooperation nor putting the campaign on pause as 'BRB, going to the Shadowlands'.
    Again- you can't disrupt the campaign when the DM can just tell you 'no' beforehand. Even if you do somehow go behind their backs, all it takes is a Dispel Magic to rectify it.

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Again- you can't disrupt the campaign when the DM can just tell you 'no' beforehand. Even if you do somehow go behind their backs, all it takes is a Dispel Magic to rectify it.
    The problem is that the DM has a LOT of ways to tell you 'no', many of them obvious or common sense.

    • That the DM and party will let you take time out of the campaign to do this. If the premise of your campaign is something like 'bring the factions of Freeport together to mount a defense against the forces of hell', no one is going to appreciate you suddenly going 'hey, you know this campaign we've been working on for eight sessions? Let's not do that for a couple of hours so I can get me some stats'. They're right to object to this plan on time-wasting grounds or thematic grounds, much like how a DM/party is justified in vetoing your proposal to go to Barrier Peaks so you can get a ray pistol.
    • That Shadar-Kai even exist in the DM's campaign setting. Shadar-Kai are not drow or giants or even gnolls, they're a meme monster that exists to fill up space several years into an edition. There are no hardcover adventures that have these creatures and no hardcover adventures that spend a significant amount of time in the Shadowfell. There are Adventurer League Adventurer Paths that take place in the Shadowfell, but not for long.
    • That there's a way to get to the Shadowfell at all. Magic Jar comes in at level 11, Plane Shift comes in at level 13. There are entry points into the Shadowfell that don't rely on Plane Shift, but you can't control them as a player.
    • Then there's the issue of finding the Gloom Weaver. What exactly are you using to find your target? You can't just wander the streets of Chaulssin for a few days and pluck a Gloom Weaver from the crowd, they're CR 9 targets. Scrying and Legend Lore and Locate Creature don't help. Divination and Augury may help to narrow down your target down to the city, but non-UA Wizards don't get those spells.
    • That there won't be any political consequences for bodyjacking a Gloom Weaver. They're CR9 creatures with 12th-level spellcasting, that's a pretty big deal in D&D. Imagine if Create Undead was errata'd to give you twice as many ghouls but only worked on characters with noble blood; that spell would suddenly become unusable in most campaign settings. Also, most of them are devoted servants of the Raven Queen, a pretty vengeful diety. While screwing over the Raven Queen's elite servants probably won't screw you over as hard as it would for, say, Moradin (something something social darwinism) it's not a risk-free endeavor.
    • That there won't be any in-party/alignment consequences for bodyjacking a Gloom Weaver. Magic Jar-ing someone in the heat of the moment while rescuing the princess or traveling locales is one thing, you're proposing to invade a stranger's locale and bodyjack them; effectively premeditated murder.


    So, again, since this plan has so many veto points -- many of them common sense -- the only way it will work is to take advantage of the DM's lack of familiarity with the rules/kindness. It's terrible advice and I'm baffled that people are suggesting it as if it should be a real thing you should do, rather than some Theoretical OP you can do for a joke.
    Last edited by Deathtongue; 2020-10-06 at 06:14 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    The problem is that the DM has a LOT of ways to tell you 'no', many of them obvious or common sense.

    • That the DM and party will let you take time out of the campaign to do this. If the premise of your campaign is something like 'bring the factions of Freeport together to mount a defense against the forces of hell', no one is going to appreciate you suddenly going 'hey, you know this campaign we've been working on for eight sessions? Let's not do that for a couple of hours so I can get me some stats'. They're right to object to this plan on time-wasting grounds or thematic grounds, much like how a DM/party is justified in vetoing your proposal to go to Barrier Peaks so you can get a ray pistol.
    • That Shadar-Kai even exist in the DM's campaign setting. Shadar-Kai are not drow or giants or even gnolls, they're a meme monster that exists to fill up space several years into an edition. There are no hardcover adventures that have these creatures and no hardcover adventures that spend a significant amount of time in the Shadowfell. There are Adventurer League Adventurer Paths that take place in the Shadowfell, but not for long.
    • That there's a way to get to the Shadowfell at all. Magic Jar comes in at level 11, Plane Shift comes in at level 13. There are entry points into the Shadowfell that don't rely on Plane Shift, but you can't control them as a player.
    • Then there's the issue of finding the Gloom Weaver. What exactly are you using to find your target? You can't just wander the streets of Chaulssin for a few days and pluck a Gloom Weaver from the crowd, they're CR 9 targets. Scrying and Legend Lore and Locate Creature don't help. Divination and Augury may help to narrow down your target down to the city, but non-UA Wizards don't get those spells.
    • That there won't be any political consequences for bodyjacking a Gloom Weaver. They're CR9 creatures with 12th-level spellcasting, that's a pretty big deal in D&D. Imagine if Create Undead was errata'd to give you twice as many ghouls but only worked on characters with noble blood; that spell would suddenly become unusable in most campaign settings. Also, most of them are devoted servants of the Raven Queen, a pretty vengeful diety. While screwing over the Raven Queen's elite servants probably won't screw you over as hard as it would for, say, Moradin (something something social darwinism) it's not a risk-free endeavor.
    • That there won't be any in-party/alignment consequences for bodyjacking a Gloom Weaver. Magic Jar-ing someone in the heat of the moment while rescuing the princess or traveling locales is one thing, you're proposing to invade a stranger's locale and bodyjack them; effectively premeditated murder.


    So, again, since this plan has so many veto points -- many of them common sense -- the only way it will work is to take advantage of the DM's lack of familiarity with the rules/kindness. It's terrible advice and I'm baffled that people are suggesting it as if it should be a real thing you should do, rather than some Theoretical OP you can do for a joke.
    The rules support using Magic Jar for body snatching. Body snatching is unequivocally its intended use. There are plenty of targets for Magic Jar besides Gloom Weavers.

    In Tier 4, Wish for Magic Jar is a strong move that Divination Wizards and Chronurgists can pull without chance of failure on Big Bad Evil humanoids.
    Last edited by ThorOdinson; 2020-10-06 at 07:33 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    The rules support using Magic Jar for body snatching. Body snatching is unequivocally its intended use. There are plenty of targets for Magic Jar besides Gloom Weavers.
    Magic Jar'ing into the first bruiser humanoid you see is much more defensible than picking a specific obscure creature not even native to the Material Plane.

    It's still a very problematic plan, mind you. Magic Jar only works on humanoids, cutting into your options, and the 1-minute casting time means that you can't cast it in combat. So you're faced with two options:

    A) Cast Magic Jar ahead of time, have your party transport your body into combat while you wait for the first suitable humanoid to pop up. Of course, this means that you can't help your party out in the opening adventuring phases unless you cancel the spell early. And if the first serious combat doesn't have any suitable humanoids, you either have to sit the combat out or waste one or more actions (depending on how you safeguarded your body while transporting it) returning to your body and thus wasting the spell.

    B) Bodyjack someone in downtime, like you're chilling out in town and as part of resting you notice the Royal Captain and decide they'd make a fine vessel. This has political and alignment problems associated with it, especially if the target is high enough CR to make it worth ditching your own Bladesinger form.

    Magic Jar'ing any suitable bulky humanoid is merely an impractical plan as opposed to bodyjacking a Gloom Weaver, which is outright cockamamie. I still don't recommend doing it except with a very lenient DM.

  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    In Tier 4, Wish for Magic Jar is a strong move that Divination Wizards and Chronurgists can pull without chance of failure on Big Bad Evil humanoids.
    It's actually a very stupid move unless your DM lets you use Action Surge or you're okay readying a 9th-level spell to go off right before your turn. Magic Jar doesn't give you a possession attempt immediately; you use your action to make your first attempt AFTER you cast the spell. Sure hope no one destroys your crystal while you can't protect your body...

  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    It's actually a very stupid move unless your DM lets you use Action Surge or you're okay readying a 9th-level spell to go off right before your turn. Magic Jar doesn't give you a possession attempt immediately; you use your action to make your first attempt AFTER you cast the spell. Sure hope no one destroys your crystal while you can't protect your body...
    Luckily its easy to protect your body and set up the body snatching if you know the spells on the Wizard's list.
    Last edited by ThorOdinson; 2020-10-06 at 07:58 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorOdinson View Post
    Luckily its easy to protect your body if you know the spells on the Wizard's list.
    What on the wizard list that you can cast in the middle of combat/right before is going to stop some high-CR humanoid from going over to your body, picking up the crystal with their 'interact with object' action, and then electing to destroy/ditch it?
    Last edited by Deathtongue; 2020-10-06 at 07:58 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    What on the wizard list that you can cast in the middle of combat/right before is going to stop some high-CR humanoid from going over to your body, picking up the crystal with their 'interact with object' action, and then electing to destroy/ditch it?
    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by truemane; 2020-10-07 at 07:08 AM. Reason: Scrubbed

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