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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ReaderAt2046's Avatar

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    Default Other ways Thor's plan could come into play

    So this is the second time Redcloak has been offered a clear chance to turn aside from the Xykon Plan, cut his losses, and pursue better and less destructive paths towards goblin safety and equality. And this is the second time that he has chosen to double down on the Xykon Plan and lash out at whoever offered him a better way. It's still possible that Redcloak will be humbled over the course of this book and either will repent and turn away from the Plan to instead help the Order seal the rifts and save the world (Gobbotopia included) or else will give up hope of the Plan's success and accept Thor's offer in surrender, but both seem extremely unlikely from narrative and character perspective.

    And yet from a narrative point of view, the idea of the world being destroyed or of the goblins being banished back to the edges of civilization are both such horrible and inappropriate endings as to be essentially unthinkable. So how can the story end with the world saved and Gobbotopia intact, but without Redcloak's help in getting there?

    Option 0: Buying Time. As Durkon pointed out, Gobbotopia isn't going anywhere, at least in the short term. Likewise, the Gates can hold the rifts sealed, at least for a time. So if the Order can defeat Xykon and Redcloak and keep the last Gate intact, then the world could keep on spinning. With the last Gate held, the gods probably would not destroy the world, especially if the Order can figure out how to rebuild the Gates on the other Rifts. This in and of itself doesn't solve the problem, but it buys time for other options. More importantly, it buys time for preliminary steps to more complex approaches. It gives time for the mortal nations of the world to negotiate with Gobbotopia and goblin equality to become an accepted fact, it buys time for Thor and his allies to convince the other Gods to work with TDO. For that matter, if goblin equality becomes an accepted fact, convincing TDO to help seal the rifts should become much easier.

    Option 1: Negotiation through mortal envoys. The only reason Thor's plan needs Redcloak (as I understand), is because the Dark One isn't co-operating. If he could be brought onboard, he wouldn't need a max-level cleric in play to reseal the rifts. The problem is that he's refusing to negotiate with the other gods, and they can't directly contact him without risking a mini-Snarl forming. But if peace could be negotiated with Gobbotopia and a few mortal clerics of the Dark One convinced of the need to negotiate on the divine level, they could relay the message to the Dark One without the risk of Snarls. We've seen that gods can hear the prayers of their mortal worshippers, so even a low-level cleric could probably bear the message to TDO. Or you only need a ninth-level cleric (not that hard to find) to cast Plane Shift, which would let the cleric talk to TDO in person, or even let a mortal emissary of one of the other gods come through to convey the message. Even if it was something as simple as getting TDO to agree to the Godsmoot protocols so that he and the other gods could negotiate face-to-face, that could be a tremendous help.

    Option 2: Divine negotiation with pantheonic backup. As mentioned above, the problem with direct divine negotiation is that TDO isn't part of any of the existing divine covenants, so even the slightest disagreement risks the formation of a dichromic Snarl. However, if Thor can gather allies from other pantheons, it should become possible to evade that risk. Suppose Thor goes in, alone, to negotiate with TDO and things go wrong. His yellow and TDO's purple create a dichromic Snarl. At this point, Thor's allies from all three other pantheons step in. Using their three colors, they should be able to unravel a two-color Snarl without too much difficulty. It would require some careful metaphysical manuevering to ensure that only one pantheon at a time comes into contact with TDO, but it should be doable.

    Thoughts? Other options on how to move forward?
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Other ways Thor's plan could come into play

    Issue already under discussion in this thread:
    https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...rative-purpose

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Other ways Thor's plan could come into play

    Quote Originally Posted by ReaderAt2046 View Post
    Option 2: Divine negotiation with pantheonic backup. As mentioned above, the problem with direct divine negotiation is that TDO isn't part of any of the existing divine covenants, so even the slightest disagreement risks the formation of a dichromic Snarl. However, if Thor can gather allies from other pantheons, it should become possible to evade that risk. Suppose Thor goes in, alone, to negotiate with TDO and things go wrong. His yellow and TDO's purple create a dichromic Snarl. At this point, Thor's allies from all three other pantheons step in. Using their three colors, they should be able to unravel a two-color Snarl without too much difficulty. It would require some careful metaphysical manuevering to ensure that only one pantheon at a time comes into contact with TDO, but it should be doable.
    The last time a snarl formed, it wiped out one of the colors that created it. Is Thor willing to risk his own life for this? Is Thor willing to risk the Dark One's life? Is Thor willing to risk the entire Northern Pantheon?

    If the gods were able to solve this themselves, they would not be asking for mortal help.

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Default Re: Other ways Thor's plan could come into play

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveMcW View Post
    The last time a snarl formed,
    The first time that the Snarl formed, it wiped out the Green Quiddity deities (The analogs in OoTS-world to the Greek Pantheon).
    See Shojo's crayon history and Thor's exposition to Durkon.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-08-31 at 08:38 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Other ways Thor's plan could come into play

    Surely "The only time a snarl formed".

    As far as we know there is only ever been one snarl. When it was first formed it took the gods by surprise and wiped out a pantheon. Thereafter it has gone through cycles of capture and release, with each world lasting a little longer, and once the gods knew what they are doing they could recapture it in relative safety.
    Last edited by Manga Shoggoth; 2020-08-31 at 04:20 PM.
    Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.

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  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Other ways Thor's plan could come into play

    I feel like Redcloak's refusal to work with Thor's plan isn't a definite signal that the plan won't come to fruition in some way. The comic needed a clear reminder of Redcloak's sunk cost fallacy mentality, both as a way to build the narrative of this specific book in the series, and for the people who only read it as a webcomic (since the first time this was brought over was in a book-only storyline). The comic may very well be going in the direction of character development for Redcloak, and this initial refusal would still be a necessary part of it. In fact, I'd argue that the comic has hinted many times that there is a part of Redcloak that realises his past and present mistakes (look no further than his expression whenever anyone mentions his taking of goblin lives), and that this wouldn't be introduced if it wasn't meant to factor into his personal story's conclusion at all.

    Thor's plan clearly won't succeed as he described it, but some form of "four quiddities get together to seal the Rifts" is still a likely conclusion to the story. The fourth quiddity may be provided by Redcloak, or by The Dark One directly, or by some unforeseen new agent that has yet to be introduced.
    Last edited by Roland Itiative; 2020-08-31 at 07:46 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #7
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    PirateWench

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    Default Re: Other ways Thor's plan could come into play

    Quote Originally Posted by ReaderAt2046 View Post
    Option 1: Negotiation through mortal envoys. The only reason Thor's plan needs Redcloak (as I understand), is because the Dark One isn't co-operating. If he could be brought onboard, he wouldn't need a max-level cleric in play to reseal the rifts. The problem is that he's refusing to negotiate with the other gods, and they can't directly contact him without risking a mini-Snarl forming. But if peace could be negotiated with Gobbotopia and a few mortal clerics of the Dark One convinced of the need to negotiate on the divine level, they could relay the message to the Dark One without the risk of Snarls. We've seen that gods can hear the prayers of their mortal worshippers, so even a low-level cleric could probably bear the message to TDO. Or you only need a ninth-level cleric (not that hard to find) to cast Plane Shift, which would let the cleric talk to TDO in person, or even let a mortal emissary of one of the other gods come through to convey the message. Even if it was something as simple as getting TDO to agree to the Godsmoot protocols so that he and the other gods could negotiate face-to-face, that could be a tremendous help.
    Jirix has been in direct communication with The Dark One when he died (the second time), is the current leader of Gobbtopia, and seems like he has more to do in the story. It would fit really well.

  8. - Top - End - #8
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    Default Re: Other ways Thor's plan could come into play

    Quote Originally Posted by Manga Shoggoth View Post
    Surely "The only time a snarl formed".
    And even "When the snarl was formed" ... but you are correct. I think there has only ever been one Snarl.

    There can be only one!
    I've just had an epiphany and may have solved the riddle of the Snarl.

    The Snarl is either Adrian Paul or Christopher Lambert!
    Don't lose your heads.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-09-01 at 10:54 AM.
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    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number
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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Other ways Thor's plan could come into play

    I donít think that Thorís plan will be the final solution, but I do think Redcloak will probably be involved. idk if Redcloak will come around on things but I donít think this scene is evidence against that happening. Redcloak is a character that has changed throughout the books and this scene is establishing where exactly he is right now very blatantly, itís very unlikely it means he wonít change going forward and I doubt that his story will end with him repeating the exact same thing again as he dies - for better or worse he will be in a different place later on.

    What I think will happen is that the world in the rift will provide a way to access green strands of reality. The snark and most likely the world it appears to have spun have green in it. If the characters go there, as they likely will, they will have a way to get some green. If four colors can contain the snark, perhaps five can vanquish it. I think Redcloak will be involved and the final solution will require all five known colors.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Other ways Thor's plan could come into play

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    There can be only one!
    I've just had an epiphany and may have solved the riddle of the Snarl.

    The Snarl is either Adrian Paul or Christopher Lambert!
    Don't lose your heads.
    It could not have been worse than Highlander 2 and 3...
    Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.

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  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Draconi Redfir's Avatar

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    Default Re: Other ways Thor's plan could come into play

    Honestly i think the Crimson Mantle will be instrumental in actually succeeding with Thor's plan somehow.

    Through some means, Redcloak (Or even The Dark One TBH) will be unwilling or unable to provide that 9th level spell, but through some means, Redcloak is separated from his cloak. As a powerful magical artifact created by The Dark One himself, the Mantle contains the essence, power, and / or quiddity of The Dark One, just enough to bypass the need for a 9th level cleric spell.

    Way i see it, Plan A was to get TDO to help seal all the rifts directly.

    Getting a 9th level cleric spell from Redcloak is plan B.

    With the Cloak created by TDO, you might be able to go through with Plan A by proxy.

    that's my guess at least.
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2020-09-01 at 01:29 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #12
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    GreataxeFighterGirl

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    Default Re: Other ways Thor's plan could come into play

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    What I think will happen is that the world in the rift will provide a way to access green strands of reality. The snark and most likely the world it appears to have spun have green in it. If the characters go there, as they likely will, they will have a way to get some green. If four colors can contain the snark, perhaps five can vanquish it. I think Redcloak will be involved and the final solution will require all five known colors.
    Truly the most dangerous enemy of all. Interesting theory, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Honestly i think the Crimson Mantle will be instrumental in actually succeeding with Thor's plan somehow.

    Through some means, Redcloak (Or even The Dark One TBH) will be unwilling or unable to provide that 9th level spell, but through some means, Redcloak is separated from his cloak. As a powerful magical artifact created by The Dark One himself, the Mantle contains the essence, power, and / or quiddity of The Dark One, just enough to bypass the need for a 9th level cleric spell.

    Way i see it, Plan A was to get TDO to help seal all the rifts directly.

    Getting a 9th level cleric spell from Redcloak is plan B.

    With the Cloak created by TDO, you might be able to go through with Plan A by proxy.

    that's my guess at least.
    Couldn't the Dark One just revoke his purple quiddity power from the Cloak (assuming it even functions as a caster would?)
    Last edited by understatement; 2020-09-04 at 11:00 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Other ways Thor's plan could come into play

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Itiative View Post
    I feel like Redcloak's refusal to work with Thor's plan isn't a definite signal that the plan won't come to fruition in some way. The comic needed a clear reminder of Redcloak's sunk cost fallacy mentality, both as a way to build the narrative of this specific book in the series, and for the people who only read it as a webcomic (since the first time this was brought over was in a book-only storyline). The comic may very well be going in the direction of character development for Redcloak, and this initial refusal would still be a necessary part of it. In fact, I'd argue that the comic has hinted many times that there is a part of Redcloak that realises his past and present mistakes (look no further than his expression whenever anyone mentions his taking of goblin lives), and that this wouldn't be introduced if it wasn't meant to factor into his personal story's conclusion at all.

    Thor's plan clearly won't succeed as he described it, but some form of "four quiddities get together to seal the Rifts" is still a likely conclusion to the story. The fourth quiddity may be provided by Redcloak, or by The Dark One directly, or by some unforeseen new agent that has yet to be introduced.
    To me the arguments against Redcloak turning around one way or another always sound like they rely too much on content from Start of Darkness. While information from the bonus books does have some value the truth is as you say: within the webcomic itself this is the first time Redcloak really has an alternative to The Plan presented to him. There might have been opportunities to cut and run before but there's a monumental difference between giving up and using an alternative solution.

    Of course it could be that the rest of this last book is going to cement him as a lost cause. That's definitely still on the table. But so far all we've really got is "Redcloak isn't so easily swayed that he'll accept the very first offer the protagonists throw at him." Which to me hardly screams "Clearly refusing the offer once means he's lost forever."

    Also if throughout this entire story not a single real villain turns around and changes their tune I'm going to be surprised, since The Giant seems big on the idea that creatures usually treated as pure evil (sapient monsters and villains) are actually people. MitD doesn't count mostly because from the start he was only a villain by association.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    I donít think that Thorís plan will be the final solution, but I do think Redcloak will probably be involved. idk if Redcloak will come around on things but I donít think this scene is evidence against that happening. Redcloak is a character that has changed throughout the books and this scene is establishing where exactly he is right now very blatantly, itís very unlikely it means he wonít change going forward and I doubt that his story will end with him repeating the exact same thing again as he dies - for better or worse he will be in a different place later on.

    What I think will happen is that the world in the rift will provide a way to access green strands of reality. The snark and most likely the world it appears to have spun have green in it. If the characters go there, as they likely will, they will have a way to get some green. If four colors can contain the snark, perhaps five can vanquish it. I think Redcloak will be involved and the final solution will require all five known colors.
    I do like the idea that the Snarl didn't destroy the green quiddity when he slew the Eastern Gods and that the world within the rifts could present an opportunity to retrieve some of that quiddity.

  14. - Top - End - #14
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    Draconi Redfir's Avatar

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    Default Re: Other ways Thor's plan could come into play

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Couldn't the Dark One just revoke his purple quiddity power from the Cloak (assuming it even functions as a caster would?)
    I wouldn't think so? I'm working on the assumption that the Cloak is a tangible, physical item. idk if he made it from scratch or just enchanted a red cape, but i'm thinking it'd be something like stitching your name into a sweater using your own hair. You can't exactly take your hair out of the sweater at that point, it's physically a part of it, and removing it would require not only obtaining the sweater away from whoever currently owns it, but also potentially taking the entire thing apart. TDO wouldn't be any more able to revoke the power away from it then a Wizard would be able to remove the enchantment he put on a sword that's ten miles away.

    Basically thinking the Cloak might have some essence of TDO's power built into it, and TDO would need to come down and physically take it (or send an Avatar, Outsider, or other servant i guess) in order to remove that essence. And if he's coming down to take it, all the better to talk to the guy in person right?
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  15. - Top - End - #15
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PirateWench

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    Default Re: Other ways Thor's plan could come into play

    My understanding is Thor needs strong enough purple energy, any purple energy, a well timed spell to open the portal world give Thor the opportunity to claim the Quiddy

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