Why hasn't Redcloak destroyed Xykon's phylactery?

[Gitman00]

Some of the discussion in the main thread for 1216 got me thinking: Why hasn't Redcloak already destroyed Xykon's phylactery?* The only reason to keep it around would be in case Xykon gets killed and Redcloak still needs him for the ritual, but if Xykon is killed, he'll discover Redcloak's treachery the moment he doesn't regenerate in his astral fortress, and Redcloak will have to destroy it anyway. I can't see him talking Xykon out of killing him. Thoughts?

* Yes, it's possible he destroyed it off-panel, but there has been no indication of that, and it seems like the author would have given us some foreshadowing, so it seems unlikely.

[Fyraltari]

The thing is buried under an obscene amount of protection spells. I don’t think Redcloak could destroy it without expanding a lot of spells and then he’d have to explain to Xykon why he’s not as powerful as usual during their exploration of the day.

[Morty]

The thing is buried under an obscene amount of protection spells. I don’t think Redcloak could destroy it without expanding a lot of spells and then he’d have to explain to Xykon why he’s not as powerful as usual during their exploration of the day.

It would also likely take some time, increasing the odds of Xykon or someone else noticing that he's doing it.

[Dion]

I don’t think we know what he’s done with with the phylactory.

He had a lot of off screen time and many resources in Goobotopia to prepare for the day when it was found. We don’t know what he did with that time.

[Gitman00]

The thing is buried under an obscene amount of protection spells. I don’t think Redcloak could destroy it without expanding a lot of spells and then he’d have to explain to Xykon why he’s not as powerful as usual during their exploration of the day.

I thought of that, but if the decoy phylactery is any indication, he cast most if not all of them himself, so he would be able to dismiss them at will.

[BloodSquirrel]

Some of the discussion in the main thread for 1216 got me thinking: Why hasn't Redcloak already destroyed Xykon's phylactery?* The only reason to keep it around would be in case Xykon gets killed and Redcloak still needs him for the ritual, but if Xykon is killed, he'll discover Redcloak's treachery the moment he doesn't regenerate in his astral fortress, and Redcloak will have to destroy it anyway. I can't see him talking Xykon out of killing him. Thoughts?

Redcloak most likely thinks (and is wrong) that he can blackmail Xykon with the location of his real phylactery.

Taking the phylactery as part of plan to destroy Xykon really doesn't make any sense. Until the ritual is complete, Redcloak needs Xykon, and given that Redcloak is willing to risk the destruction of the entire world to complete The Plan, I don't think that contingency plans that involve giving up on The Plan are very high on Redcloak's list of priorities. And once the ritual is complete, Redcloak is going to be facing an enraged Xykon, and destroying his phylactery isn't going to stop Xykon from killing him right then and there.


Also, if he destroys Xykon's phylactery, then Xykon can just make another one. He may even be able to sense the phylactery's destruction. Way back in SoD

Spoiler

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when Redcloak threatened to destroy his phylactery Xykon wasn't phased in the slightest.]

When it got lost in the sewer, Xykon completely lost his ****.

Redcloak swapped out the phylactery because he needs a means to control Xykon, not to destroy him. I don't think it's the smartest move, but then again, I think that Redcloak's judgment regarding pretty much everything above the tactical level has been critically compromised for a long time now.

[Theshipening]

I thought of that, but if the decoy phylactery is any indication, he cast most if not all of them himself, so he would be able to dismiss them at will.

Redcloak only needed to cast enough spells on it to fool Xykon. That way if he tries to hit it or scry on it, he’ll see it’s protected, and he likely won’t hit it hard enough to see that it’s not as resistant as before.

Plus, maybe Xykon would feel it in his bones if his phylactery was destroyed, which isn’t a risk Redcloak is willing to take. He’ll have all the time in the world to destroy the phylactery once Xykon is dead, as long as he smashes the regenerating bits (or just drop it in a volcano or smth.)

[understatement]

Redcloak most likely thinks (and is wrong) that he can blackmail Xykon with the location of his real phylactery.

Taking the phylactery as part of plan to destroy Xykon really doesn't make any sense. Until the ritual is complete, Redcloak needs Xykon, and given that Redcloak is willing to risk the destruction of the entire world to complete The Plan, I don't think that contingency plans that involve giving up on The Plan are very high on Redcloak's list of priorities. And once the ritual is complete, Redcloak is going to be facing an enraged Xykon, and destroying his phylactery isn't going to stop Xykon from killing him right then and there.


Also, if he destroys Xykon's phylactery, then Xykon can just make another one. He may even be able to sense the phylactery's destruction. Way back in SoD

Spoiler

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when Redcloak threatened to destroy his phylactery Xykon wasn't phased in the slightest.]

When it got lost in the sewer, Xykon completely lost his ****.

Redcloak swapped out the phylactery because he needs a means to control Xykon, not to destroy him. I don't think it's the smartest move, but then again, I think that Redcloak's judgment regarding pretty much everything above the tactical level has been critically compromised for a long time now.

Redcloak pretty clearly says that

Spoiler: SOD

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he expects his god to take care of Xykon when the time comes.

Now, the chance that Xykon doesn't catch on the true goal of the Plan is astronomically low, but Redcloak's purpose in securing the phylactery was so that he could destroy it after Xykon is destroyed, which would (in his mind) happen after the Plan is reached. Obviously not going to happen, but that's another topic.

[BloodSquirrel]

Redcloak pretty clearly says that

Spoiler: SOD

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he expects his god to take care of Xykon when the time comes.

Spoiler: SOD

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Redcloak just says that Xykon is "not strong enough to challenge our god" and then says that they can offer him a cushy retirement in their new nation. In other words, he isn't expecting TDO to smite Xykon the moment the ritual is complete. This was also before Xykon was a lich.

So it's pretty clear that Redcloak's position is "Once the ritual is complete, it'll be too late for Xykon to stop the plan, even if he kills me."

[KorvinStarmast]

Until the ritual is complete, Redcloak needs Xykon

That is reason number one, agreed.

Redcloak swapped out the phylactery because he needs a means to control Xykon, not to destroy him. I don't think it's the smartest move, but then again, I think that Redcloak's judgment regarding pretty much everything above the tactical level has been critically compromised for a long time now.

He thinks it will give him leverage. And I think you may be correct in him overselling, to himself, how much leverage that will offer him.

[understatement]

Spoiler: SOD

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Redcloak just says that Xykon is "not strong enough to challenge our god" and then says that they can offer him a cushy retirement in their new nation. In other words, he isn't expecting TDO to smite Xykon the moment the ritual is complete. This was also before Xykon was a lich.

So it's pretty clear that Redcloak's position is "Once the ritual is complete, it'll be too late for Xykon to stop the plan, even if he kills me."

I daresay that after what happened in SOD Redcloak will just ask his god to kill Xykon. God vs lich is still the same result as god vs mortal.

And well...yes. Redcloak doesn't expect himself to live. 1212 pretty much shows that Redcloak's willing to let the whole planet blow -- including himself -- to get what he wants. Death is not an issue for him.

[BloodSquirrel]

I daresay that after what happened in SOD Redcloak will just ask his god to kill Xykon. God vs lich is still the same result as god vs mortal.

Yeah... said result being "No, we can't do that, there are rules that prevent us from directly interfering."

And the point with Xykon being a lich is that he was more likely back then to give Redcloak a moment to negotiate after finding out he'd been had. Now there's no question about it- he's going to kill Redcloak.

[Roland Itiative]

I think the idea that Xykon would magically be aware of his phylactery's destruction is the most likely one. Assuming that's the way that phylacteries work in OotS, Redcloak just can't do anything to it while Xykon is still "on his side".

Once the Ritual is complete, he can try to destroy Xykon using whatever means he has on hand, and then safely dispose of the phylactery before he can regenerate. If he handed the phylactery to Xykon, this second step would be made extremely harder.

Sure, Redcloak beating Xykon on a straight up fight is a very unlikely scenario, so having the phylactery is most likely useless to him, but it's still a contingency plan he has in place.

[understatement]

Yeah... said result being "No, we can't do that, there are rules that prevent us from directly interfering."

And the point with Xykon being a lich is that he was more likely back then to give Redcloak a moment to negotiate after finding out he'd been had. Now there's no question about it- he's going to kill Redcloak.

Chance to negotiate what? When Xykon was a human, Redcloak (and his brother, before the fallout) were willing to give Xykon a nice parcel of land for him to lord over since Xykon was a) about to die, and b) easier to work with. When Xykon finds out he's been lied to for over 3 decades on a plan he died for, the only negotation is going to come whether he'll torture Redcloak first or just bind his soul.

ETA: I'll grant that Human Xykon wouldn't react that badly, since he hadn't died for it yet. But Redcloak's planned endgame has been the same - if Xykon tried to do stuff afterwards, the Dark One would take care of it. The actual chance of that working is near 0%, of course, but that's how he's played it for 30 years or so.

And yes, there is explicitly a spell that allows a god to intervene on the mortal plane: Miracle. Also, the Dark One doesn't play by the other gods' rules, and once he (believes) has the Snarl in his pocket he'll definitely start pushing the envelope on those rules. The issue's not if the TDO can interfere (the ritual pretty much guarantees some sort of mortal-divine transfer), it's whether he would or not. Which is also another topic.

[BloodSquirrel]

Chance to negotiate what? When Xykon was a human, Redcloak (and his brother, before the fallout) were willing to give Xykon a nice parcel of land for him to lord over since Xykon was a) about to die, and b) easier to work with.

Uh... yeah... that's the point. Negotiating with Xykon was more of an option when he was mortal.

When Xykon finds out he's been lied to for over 3 decades on a plan he died for,

I can see that this is in the process of becoming a meme. Let's set the record straight: Xykon doesn't regret becoming a lich. At all. He got pissed off that he couldn't taste coffee, but since then he's made it clear, on multiple occasions, including his "anything to avoid the fire down below" speech to V, that he considers it a step up in the world. After all, he'd be dead from old age by now if not for becoming undead.

And yes, there is explicitly a spell that allows a god to intervene on the mortal plane: Miracle. Also, the Dark One doesn't play by the other gods' rules, and once he (believes) has the Snarl in his pocket he'll definitely start pushing the envelope on those rules. The issue's not if the TDO can interfere (the ritual pretty much guarantees some sort of mortal-divine transfer), it's whether he would or not. Which is also another topic.

TDO does, in fact, for the most part play by their rules, which is why he needs one of his clerics down on the mortal plane to do his legwork. The ritual- just like Miracle and all other divine spells- allows a cleric to invoke their god's power in some specific, bounded way. There's no reason to expect TDO to jump down to the mortal plane just to kill Xykon, who won't be a threat to his plan at that point anyway. Especially when he'll probably be a tad busy dealing with the dive hornet's nest that they'll have just kicked by moving the gate.

[Jason]

The only reason to keep it around would be in case Xykon gets killed and Redcloak still needs him for the ritual...

I think you answered your own question. As a contingency if the heroes manage to destroy Xykon, which has already happened once.

...but if Xykon is killed, he'll discover Redcloak's treachery the moment he doesn't regenerate in his astral fortress, and Redcloak will have to destroy it anyway. I can't see him talking Xykon out of killing him. Thoughts?

Well, Xykon won't be able to kill him until he regenerates enough body parts, so Redcloak will have some time to talk. Maybe he'll be able to come up with some plausible explanation for why he has the phylactery.

Or, alternately, Redcloak could be saving the phylactery for revenge purposes. He could be looking forward to the idea of seeing Xykon's body destroyed after the gate is shifted to the Dark One's control and then explaining to Xykon exactly how he, Redcloak, has manipulated him from the beginning while Xykon is helpless in the phylactery, and then destroying it.

[Lex]

I think using the phylactery as a bargain chip in case Xykon decides to kill him is the most likely explanation, but there Is still the flaw that Redcloack has to first convince Xykon that he in fact has the real phylactery and he is not bluffing.

Or, alternately, Redcloak could be saving the phylactery for revenge purposes. He could be looking forward to the idea of seeing Xykon's body destroyed after the gate is shifted to the Dark One's control and then explaining to Xykon exactly how he, Redcloak, has manipulated him from the beginning while Xykon is helpless in the phylactery, and then destroying it.

This is also a realistic possibility.

[Lexible]

The thing is buried under an obscene amount of protection spells. I don’t think Redcloak could destroy it without expanding a lot of spells and then he’d have to explain to Xykon why he’s not as powerful as usual during their exploration of the day.

In 3.5 spellcasters are generally able to dismiss their own spells at will.

[understatement]

Uh... yeah... that's the point. Negotiating with Xykon was more of an option when he was mortal.

Yeah, halfway through I realized what I was typing, but...since I already reached halfway, might as well finish it. (Yes, ironic sunk-cost fallacy shining through, etc etc).

I can see that this is in the process of becoming a meme. Let's set the record straight: Xykon doesn't regret becoming a lich. At all. He got pissed off that he couldn't taste coffee, but since then he's made it clear, on multiple occasions, including his "anything to avoid the fire down below" speech to V, that he considers it a step up in the world. After all, he'd be dead from old age by now if not for becoming undead.

Spoiler: SOD

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Redcloak explicitly saying "You will have gone through this change for nothing" is what saves his ass, and probably the one time he actually talks Xykon out of something that Xykon wants to do.

Yeah, Xykon prefers being undead over dead, but him being a lich in the first place is a huge-enough bone of contention. He can still prefer to be a lich and still be majorly pissed off at the fact that it really was for nothing.

TDO does, in fact, for the most part play by their rules, which is why he needs one of his clerics down on the mortal plane to do his legwork. The ritual- just like Miracle and all other divine spells- allows a cleric to invoke their god's power in some specific, bounded way. There's no reason to expect TDO to jump down to the mortal plane just to kill Xykon, who won't be a threat to his plan at that point anyway. Especially when he'll probably be a tad busy dealing with the dive hornet's nest that they'll have just kicked by moving the gate.

What's the point here? Obviously the Dark One doesn't have to come down; only that he can interfere, in the same way a ritual or Miracle would allow him to inferfere. I don't expect him to do anything either, but the ritual would very likely give him more power on the mortal plane, even if for a little bit.

[Metastachydium]

TDO does, in fact, for the most part play by their rules, which is why he needs one of his clerics down on the mortal plane to do his legwork. The ritual- just like Miracle and all other divine spells- allows a cleric to invoke their god's power in some specific, bounded way. There's no reason to expect TDO to jump down to the mortal plane just to kill Xykon, who won't be a threat to his plan at that point anyway. Especially when he'll probably be a tad busy dealing with the dive hornet's nest that they'll have just kicked by moving the gate.

1. He does not play by the rules. „We don't talk about the Snarl in front of mortals” is one of the core rules, and he keeps breaking it whenever a new high priest of his is ordained. It is true he did not go any farther than that thus far, but the reason for that might just be that he would really rather not draw more unwanted attention on his dealings than absolutely necessary.
2. It is, however, true that once the Ritual is completed, Xykon becomes irrelevant as far as Big Purple is concerned. Which does indeed raise some questions regarding Redcloak's motivation for stealing the phylactery. I would not assume that he intends to blackmail Xykon with it. He tried to do that before and it failed, though. Redcloak is not quite as dumb as that.

[homersolo]

The thing is buried under an obscene amount of protection spells. I don’t think Redcloak could destroy it without expanding a lot of spells and then he’d have to explain to Xykon why he’s not as powerful as usual during their exploration of the day.

It has probably been guessed before, but my guess is that at the end of this, the snarl destroys the phylactery (sp?). It is super powerful, it wouldn't take any spells to do so, and no reader would question that the snarl has the power to destroy it.

There we go. Called the shot. Let's see if it proves true in 4 years.

[denthor]

Simple answer.

That is how you kill a lich no coming back from that.

[hroþila]

My interpretation is that this is not about Redcloak being rational.

Redcloak did the switcheroo mostly to appease his own conscience, so he can lie to himself about how he's working against Xykon and how he's actually pulling the strings (which he isn't). Or perhaps it's his way to make sure he will do the right thing when/if the opportunity arises and Xykon is destroyed, because if that happens Xykon will immediately know that Redcloak has betrayed him and he'll have no choice but to destroy the phylactery for real. In any case, I think he sees destroying the phylactery as being too "final" an action. Like that would be fully committing to the destruction of Xykon, which is not something he can do at the moment for psychological reasons. So he's happy to continue existing in that limbo where he doesn't need to make up his mind, make another decision or face his past ones, at least for the time being. This isn't rational because, again, the switcheroo means he won't have a choice anymore if Xykon does get destroyed and he starts regenerating in his real phylactery, but I think it works.

This is just my headcanon but hey.

[Thales]

Yeah... said result being "No, we can't do that, there are rules that prevent us from directly interfering."

Why would that be the case for the Dark One? TDO evidently has little loyalty to the gods, and while he might be afraid that all the gods would gang up to destroy him if he broke the sort of rule that can create a Snarl, once the Plan is complete and he has a weapon that can threaten them, why not step in directly to save his high priest?

[Jason]

Why would that be the case for the Dark One? TDO evidently has little loyalty to the gods, and while he might be afraid that all the gods would gang up to destroy him if he broke the sort of rule that can create a Snarl, once the Plan is complete and he has a weapon that can threaten them, why not step in directly to save his high priest?

How about because he's evil, he's never spoken directly to his high priest, and once he has what he wants he doesn't really care what happens to Redcloak?

[Quartz]

Simple answer.

That is how you kill a lich no coming back from that.

AIUI it's not quite as simple as that: after destroying the phylactery you still have to kill the lich. Destroying the phylactery means that there is no safe haven for the lich's soul. And maybe the lich can create another phylactery.

[Thales]

How about because he's evil, he's never spoken directly to his high priest, and once he has what he wants he doesn't really care what happens to Redcloak?

We really don't have good evidence to suggest that he doesn't care about Redcloak except as a means to an end. I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it were not the case. That Redcloak has never directly communicated with the Dark One is some evidence in that direction, but it's far from dispositive — Durkon is critical to Thor's plans, Thor clearly cares about Durkon's welfare, and yet the only reason they were able to speak was because Durkon died, which Redcloak has not. Indeed, our one case of direct communication from the Dark One is him talking to Jirix after Jirix died. Even at the Godsmoot, we didn't see communication between the gods and the mortals, just the gods communicating amongst themselves in a manner that happened to be visible to mortals.

[Jason]

We really don't have good evidence to suggest that he doesn't care about Redcloak except as a means to an end. I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it were not the case. That Redcloak has never directly communicated with the Dark One is some evidence in that direction, but it's far from dispositive — Durkon is critical to Thor's plans, Thor clearly cares about Durkon's welfare, and yet the only reason they were able to speak was because Durkon died, which Redcloak has not. Indeed, our one case of direct communication from the Dark One is him talking to Jirix after Jirix died. Even at the Godsmoot, we didn't see communication between the gods and the mortals, just the gods communicating amongst themselves in a manner that happened to be visible to mortals.

It's an open question, isn't It? We'll just have to wait until the Dark One actually appears in person on-panel, which he hasn't to this point, in order to see what kind of god he really is.

And a correction: Jirix said he met the Dark One and had some messages to bring back. We don't know if there was an actual conversation or what was really said, just Jirix's second-hand report.

[Gitman00]

Also, if he destroys Xykon's phylactery, then Xykon can just make another one. He may even be able to sense the phylactery's destruction.

In theory yes, but SOD makes it clear he doesn't have the expertise. Redcloak was the one who created his phylactery.

[Jason]

In theory yes, but SOD makes it clear he doesn't have the expertise. Redcloak was the one who created his phylactery.

You mean he didn't have the expertise while he was alive...

The fact that he was very upset when it was lost is a good sign that he hasn't, in fact, created a backup.