OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread

[ebarde]

The new bearer would still need to have a 9th spell slot, which is something I highly doubt any other Dark One worshipper is anywhere near to having access to.

[Fyraltari]

Redcloak is patient enough to wait for the right time to take them out. Either way, they're a liability to him now.

Problem is, Oona might be smart enough to guess that and ensure her safety by giving the bugbears a message for Xykon if she croaks.

I just don’t think Redcloak is going to get out of having to justify his actions here to her.

Besides, even with this fighting, they're still trying to convince Redcloak. Redcloak is the one trying to kill them. She probably thinks he doesn't need the help.

Nah, by the end of the page they’re just calling him out on his bull.

[Skull the Troll]

Redcloak just looks so irritated in the last panel.

[Djibril]

{scrubbed}

[Metastachydium]

neither cleric is trying to kill him and is STILL trying to debate him

Well, one is in no position to try and do that, while the other keeps hitting him with a huge electrically charged hammer, though.

[hroþila]

Well, he definitely should. Plan B is just stupid, wrong and should not sound particularly good from his perspective.

It made sense from the perspective of someone who thought the goblins had literally nothing to lose, that they had it so bad that any risk was worth it. Redcloak and Right-Eye were living in a swamp with a few impoverished goblins, after all. Plan B made the most sense in case the gods demolished the world safely and every goblinoid soul went on to the Dark One's afterlife as if they had died in a more normal way, although Redcloak still said quite explicitly that he was all for Plan B as an acceptable outcome even if it resulted in the Snarl unmaking every soul.

Regardless, Redcloak has seen more of the world out of that swamp now, and Gobbotopia exists. If he can look at this rationally (i.e. if he doesn't feel he needs to keep Plan B on the table just to feel his life choices were worth it), he might well reconsider it. But I wouldn't be surprised if he believes any change to the Plan would be an unacceptable compromise and a threat to his world view.

[Fyraltari]

snip

Methinks, there is no place this line of discussion leads to that is forum rules-approved.

[Skull the Troll]

This rather depends on how many people get here before the fight is over.

Killing witnesses doesn’t work when people witness you doing it.

Indeed. Any plan where you lose your hat is a bad plan!

[Shining Wrath]

How do you propose he does that?


He might be, but there’s not many places he could be hiding. Can he cast flight and invisibility silently?

We know from Minrah that Durkon and she planned for the possibility that Redcloak would attack. They should execute that plan, which had damn well better involve getting out of the enemy camp before the epic lich gets involved. Level 13 + level 12 might, possibly, on a lucky day, take out level 18 (Redcloak), but not the whole of Team Evil, and they know it. Therefore they must have a plan to escape, and I want them to use it.

The way I see it, much of this is news to RC, and it is really a lot of information at once, where he doesn't know what is true. Therefore it is next to impossible to gather what RC will take out of this debate and what he may forget to create a coherent world view that still fits his own beliefs.

Redcloak being evil, he will attribute evil motives to Durkon and Minrah - he doesn't believe anyone is actually good. The "good" are hypocrites in his world view, which is part of why Minrah telling him he's the hypocrite is infuriating. Therefore, he'll believe only the parts that mean he should do what benefits him - not goblinkind, not TDO, but him. Evil is as evil does, to quote Oona in her Forrest Gump aspect.

This rather depends on how many people get here before the fight is over.

Killing witnesses doesn’t work when people witness you doing it.

As we saw in the battle with Vaarsuvius, Xykon has a +8 racial modifier to listen checks. If he's in the camp at all, he heard Minrah's "Thor's Might", which seems to have been shouted - and then he has been listening since then. Xykon will have the same biases as Redcloak - that is, to attribute malign intent to the dwarves - but he is also deeply suspicious of Redcloak. He'd betray Redcloak in a heartbeat, so that means Redcloak would do the same to him. Therefore, killing Oona and Greyview might actually backfire on Redcloak, as it would be a non-trivial battle, turn the bugbear village against him, and reduce his resources for the battle he'd have anyway with Xykon, who'd take killing the witnesses as confirmation.

[Metastachydium]

It made sense from the perspective of someone who thought the goblins had literally nothing to lose, that they had it so bad that any risk was worth it. Redcloak and Right-Eye were living in a swamp with a few impoverished goblins, after all.

Even then, he had no solid evidence that the Dark One will actually have a say when the new world is made.

Regardless, Redcloak has seen more of the world out of that swamp now, and Gobbotopia exists. If he can look at this rationally (i.e. if he doesn't feel he needs to keep Plan B on the table just to feel his life choices were worth it), he might well reconsider it.

Yes, unlike dropping the Plan at this point (which would not be a rational move), dropping Plan B would be more than reasonable and it should happen as soon as possible.

[ReaderAt2046]

It occurs to me that there's one more piece of information Redcloak is missing: That sealing the Snarl would be an ongoing process rather than a one-shot thing. According to Thor, even if TDO seals the existing rifts, new ones will form in a few centuries and TDO will be needed to spot-weld those. So helping to seal the Snarl would give TDO all the same advantages as the original Plan (he can effectively say "Treat my people equally or I will unleash the Snarl"), but with much better optics and consequently better relations with other deities.

Of course, even if Durkon explained this, Redcloak would need to 1) believe him, and 2) be willing to give up on the Plan, neither of which he seems inclined to do.

[KorvinStarmast]

Man, Redcloak's getting a real philosophical pummelling (and real pummelling) in this one.

Minrocks continues to rock Redcloak's shaky self justifications. Feeling much Shaleshoe love. I still think this whole argument/debate is a set up for a surprise coming from inviso kidnappers or Fiend plot once the tension ratchets up with the arrival of Xykon, the rest of Order, both, and perhaps others.
And while I am at it, I love That Hammer that Durkon very kindly shares with Minrah. Nice weapon.

A world with just humans? 2/10, would not recommend

You may wish to consider visiting with Mr Musk and book a flght on his next launch ...

Why Durkon doesn't get them both the hell out of Dodge confuzzles me.

Because we needed Oona and Greyview to arrive on screen. Yay, Greyview! Words are just pretty hat we put on ugly truths.

I think this means Oona's life is forfeit. And Greyview's. As soon as Durkon and MAXrah leave, Redcloak has no choice to silence them unless they (accidentally or otherwise) spill the beans to Xykon.

Which strikes me as a prep for the old director's cue "Xykon, enter screen right ..."

Minrah's not wrong - everyone that Redcloak truly loved (his siblings and parents) are already gone.

And sadly, I'll suggest that he doesn't love himself. I am pretty sure that Redcloak's self-loathing (which IIRC is shown in SoD) will bubble up again soon.

I'm willing - we goblins are willing ...

At the moment, he gets to direct that emotional energy at Minrah and Durkon.

Indeed. Any plan where you lose your hat is a bad plan!

Hang onto your hat! (Gratiuitous reference to Young Frankenstein)

As to this bit from Minrah: I don't think you really care about them - you just feel bad about not caring.

Not sure what they call this in D&D 3.5, but in 5e this would be a successful Insight check.

[Sesharan]

You know that stuff everyone's been saying for the last couple pages about how awesome Minrah is? That again, but like times a hundred. I agree with Oona— Minrah's words are very pretty indeed.

I also can't help but note that Durkon is casting an awfully small number of spells in this combat. Zero, actually. It's enough to make me wonder if that's a deliberate play to try and drain Redcloak's spell slots...

[deltamire]

God, now I just want about a dozen pages of Oona and Minrah talking. Two very blunt, to the point people who are completely different in their viewpoints and experiences just dukin' it out.

Also, go Minrah! Back in the Inbetween Months between the new book and UD, people were being dismissive of her and her compelling inclusion in the cast, and she's smashed those expectations with a bang. Or a boom, in the case of lightning, I suppose.

[Snowtwo]

Minrah proves herself to be awesome again. Spot on with the attack against his hypocrisy and lies about caring about Goblins!

[Metastachydium]

It occurs to me that there's one more piece of information Redcloak is missing: That sealing the Snarl would be an ongoing process rather than a one-shot thing. According to Thor, even if TDO seals the existing rifts, new ones will form in a few centuries and TDO will be needed to spot-weld those. So helping to seal the Snarl would give TDO all the same advantages as the original Plan (he can effectively say "Treat my people equally or I will unleash the Snarl"), but with much better optics and consequently better relations with other deities.

Of course, even if Durkon explained this, Redcloak would need to 1) believe him, and 2) be willing to give up on the Plan, neither of which he seems inclined to do.

1. As far as Redcloak and Big Purple know, the Plan could work. They do not know anything about the Rift-sealing procedure, and they have no reason to trust Durkon or the gods.
2. I also tend to agree that spot-welding would be a good permanent leverage. However, dancrillis made a fairly good point in the last thread: Thor never cared to explain how the procedure works, and for all we (and everyone bar a few gods) know, it could very well just make it possible for the gods to access the Dark ONe's quiddity and to use it any number of times, regardless whether he likes it or not.

[Fyraltari]

Indeed. Any plan where you lose your hat is a bad plan!

AYYYYYE! I knew someone was bound to make that joke.

We know from Minrah that Durkon and she planned for the possibility that Redcloak would attack. They should execute that plan, which had damn well better involve getting out of the enemy camp before the epic lich gets involved. Level 13 + level 12 might, possibly, on a lucky day, take out level 18 (Redcloak), but not the whole of Team Evil, and they know it. Therefore they must have a plan to escape, and I want them to use it.

While I hope they do have a better plan than « sucker punch the goblin and hope for the best », it doesn’t look like they do.

As we saw in the battle with Vaarsuvius, Xykon has a +8 racial modifier to listen checks. If he's in the camp at all, he heard Minrah's "Thor's Might", which seems to have been shouted - and then he has been listening since then. Xykon will have the same biases as Redcloak - that is, to attribute malign intent to the dwarves - but he is also deeply suspicious of Redcloak. He'd betray Redcloak in a heartbeat, so that means Redcloak would do the same to him. Therefore, killing Oona and Greyview might actually backfire on Redcloak, as it would be a non-trivial battle, turn the bugbear village against him, and reduce his resources for the battle he'd have anyway with Xykon, who'd take killing the witnesses as confirmation.

Xykon doesn’t have any issue understanding good actions. He just chooses to be a prick because he’s not a very realistic character.

I also don’t think Xykon would attack Redcloak even if knowing that Redcloak was negotiating with the ennemy. As long as his phylactery is secure (which he believes it is) this is all a game to him, and he’d want to see where Redcloak is going with it.

[Metastachydium]

I also don’t think Xykon would attack Redcloak even if knowing that Redcloak was negotiating with the ennemy. As long as his phylactery is secure (which he believes it is) this is all a game to him, and he’d want to see where Redcloak is going with it.

Also, he does know that Redcloak's (nominal or actual) goal is to make the goblinoids' life better through the Plan. He also does (or, at any rate, ought to) know that meddling with the Gates might bring about the end of the world. Redcloak did not say anything that incriminates him thus far.

[Trafalgar]

"Words are just pretty hat we put on ugly truths"

There should be a Greyview quote on every page of the OOTS 2021 calendar.

[hroþila]

Also, he does know that Redcloak's (nominal or actual) goal is to make the goblinoids' life better through the Plan. He also does (or, at any rate, ought to) know that meddling with the Gates might bring about the end of the world. Redcloak did not say anything that incriminates him thus far.

Plus, Xykon expects to have to negotiate at some point. He envisioned using the Snarl once or twice against uppity nations and the rest falling in line, so he and Redcloak would have to talk to them eventually, if only to accept their surrender.

[Frozenstep]

I knew Redcloak would ignore the idea that the Dark One might not survive. It's just too much of a convenient fact, it works too well as a threat. Hopefully though, the Dark One is listening in. Redcloak doesn't need to change his mind or cast the 9th level spell, if the Dark One just comes out and talks to Thor, that's a win.

[Quebbster]

You know that stuff everyone's been saying for the last couple pages about how awesome Minrah is? That again, but like times a hundred. I agree with Oona— Minrah's words are very pretty indeed.

I also can't help but note that Durkon is casting an awfully small number of spells in this combat. Zero, actually. It's enough to make me wonder if that's a deliberate play to try and drain Redcloak's spell slots...

He did cast Wind Walk before the combat though. Not sure how many slots that was.

[Lerch]

Not sure what they call this in D&D 3.5, but in 5e this would be a successful Insight check.

Sense Motive or Wisdom check.


It Bears repeating. "Words are just pretty hat we put on ugly truths." And the prettier the words...the uglier the truth.

[Dausuul]

The class and level geekery folks should adjust Minrah's stats. She's doing amazingly well against a far higher-level foe; she obviously has levels in some class that gets Smite Self-Deception as a class feature.

I can't imagine Redcloak is going to back off combat right now--I'm expecting a berserk explosion next comic--but clearly some seeds have been sown that will bear fruit later in the book.

At the same time... what are Durkon and Minrah doing? They aren't trying to escape. Durkon isn't even casting spells, it looks like he's just doing Full Defense. They seem to be engaged in delaying tactics. But what are they delaying for? Betting on the rest of the Order to arrive before Xykon does seems like lousy odds to me. They must have something else up their sleeves.

[Lheticus]

So um, I'm going to bring up the bugbear in the room (well the other bugbear, people have already talked about Oona sidelining herself on purpose) and say...isn't it a little incongruous that Roy had to learn a special technique in order to have even a % chance to interrupt a spellcasting, yet Minrah pulls it off just by smashing Redcloak with a hammer?

Thinking on it, I see two plausible explanations:

a) The combination of the hammer blow and the psychological warfare was at least enough to force a Concentration check, which Redcloak failed; or

b) The hammer, at that time, is quite a bit larger than Roy's sword and I'm erroneously comparing the force from being smacked with a stick to the force from a blow slightly more extreme than a Looney-Tunes anvil from above.

I'm curious if anyone has additional thoughts.

[Metastachydium]

I knew Redcloak would ignore the idea that the Dark One might not survive. It's just too much of a convenient fact, it works too well as a threat. Hopefully though, the Dark One is listening in. Redcloak doesn't need to change his mind or cast the 9th level spell, if the Dark One just comes out and talks to Thor, that's a win.

I doubt that Big Purple would be willing to negotiate directly without the Gate under his control. He's way too paranoid for that. This is why negotiating through emissaries/proxies is a logical solution to the whole conundrum, even if we set aside the fact that this necessarily means that established major characters play a part in the deal.

[Dausuul]

So um, I'm going to bring up the bugbear in the room (well the other bugbear, people have already talked about Oona sidelining herself on purpose) and say...isn't it a little incongruous that Roy had to learn a special technique in order to have even a % chance to interrupt a spellcasting, yet Minrah pulls it off just by smashing Redcloak with a hammer?

Thinking on it, I see two plausible explanations:

a) The combination of the hammer blow and the psychological warfare was at least enough to force a Concentration check, which Redcloak failed; or

b) The hammer, at that time, is quite a bit larger than Roy's sword and I'm erroneously comparing the force from being smacked with a stick to the force from a blow slightly more extreme than a Looney-Tunes anvil from above.

I'm curious if anyone has additional thoughts.

Other possibilities:

c) Minrah is readying an attack each round. She is sacrificing her regular action, in exchange for being able to whack Redcloak even if he casts defensively. Roy's feat probably allows him to take a regular opportunity attack and still get a full round of normal attacks too. Or else it just imposes massive penalties on the Concentration check.

d) The hammer is a minor artifact and has special powers designed to mess up evil clerics. (Presumably it was intended for use on clerics of Loki, but Redcloak works too.)

[Fyraltari]

So um, I'm going to bring up the bugbear in the room (well the other bugbear, people have already talked about Oona sidelining herself on purpose) and say...isn't it a little incongruous that Roy had to learn a special technique in order to have even a % chance to interrupt a spellcasting, yet Minrah pulls it off just by smashing Redcloak with a hammer?

Thinking on it, I see two plausible explanations:

a) The combination of the hammer blow and the psychological warfare was at least enough to force a Concentration check, which Redcloak failed; or

b) The hammer, at that time, is quite a bit larger than Roy's sword and I'm erroneously comparing the force from being smacked with a stick to the force from a blow slightly more extreme than a Looney-Tunes anvil from above.

I'm curious if anyone has additional thoughts.

Minrah got a lucky hit in. I think we’ve seen other casters get interrupted before.

Also, the other bugbear in the room, is the one with the horned mask who left before the negotiation. What are they up to?

[KorvinStarmast]

Thinking on it, I see two plausible explanations:

a) The combination of the hammer blow and the psychological warfare was at least enough to force a Concentration check, which Redcloak failed; or

b) The hammer, at that time, is quite a bit larger than Roy's sword and I'm erroneously comparing the force from being smacked with a stick to the force from a blow slightly more extreme than a Looney-Tunes anvil from above.

It's not just "a hammer" but is rather a Hammer that Thor made and gave to his worshippers, but had been hidden in his temple for *reasons*. Not sure if it is an artifact, but it's likely a legendary weapon, a god touched weapon, and I note that Reddy is getting both the schwack from the hammer and the zapp from the lightning in the big panel where Minrah really lays down the verbal hurt as well. I think it does at least two kinds of damage per attack.

[Warder]

So um, I'm going to bring up the bugbear in the room (well the other bugbear, people have already talked about Oona sidelining herself on purpose) and say...isn't it a little incongruous that Roy had to learn a special technique in order to have even a % chance to interrupt a spellcasting, yet Minrah pulls it off just by smashing Redcloak with a hammer?

Thinking on it, I see two plausible explanations:

a) The combination of the hammer blow and the psychological warfare was at least enough to force a Concentration check, which Redcloak failed; or

b) The hammer, at that time, is quite a bit larger than Roy's sword and I'm erroneously comparing the force from being smacked with a stick to the force from a blow slightly more extreme than a Looney-Tunes anvil from above.

I'm curious if anyone has additional thoughts.

It was just a failed concentration check by Redcloak. Casting spells in melee makes you subject to an attack of opportunity unless you cast defensively, and if you're injured while casting you have to make a concentration check or lose the spell.