OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread

[dancrilis]

Xykon thinks the plan is to make him ruler of the world. Ending the world for the good of goblinkind isn't really on his agenda.

Don' have it handy at the moment (I should pickup the pdf sometime), but to memory:

Spoiler: SOD

Show

Redcloak was clear that they would capture the gate and make things better for the goblins by threatening the gods, Xykon felt that they could use if to improve his lot also - that is effectively Redcloak's plan as he introduced it to Xykon, nothing said to the Dwarves changes that.

The Dwarves haven't for instance been told that The Plan is for The Dark One to get control of the Gate rather then Redcloak and Xykon.

Xykon could be pissed that Redcloak didn't include him in the discussions but nothing Oona and Greyview know likely changes his understanding.

[Metastachydium]

Oh, come on. Being able to bail out of a fight is not trivializing on anywhere near the scale of being able to go wherever you like whenever you like.

If you were fighting in the first place, there was a reason for it (or the writer wasn't doing their job). You had something to win, or something to lose. Noping out of the fight means you don't win and you do lose. Whatever the stakes were, you forfeited them to the villain.

The only case where word of recall would have changed anything is the Malack fight, and there are any number of reasons Durkon might not have used it there--the simplest being that he just didn't prepare it that day. A 6th-level slot is a big honkin' spell slot to devote to an escape hatch that will leave you stranded far from the action, if you don't have a specific reason to believe you will need it.

In fact, Durkon using Word of Recall would make things harder for the rest of the Order (since that would leave them without clerics for some time), rather than solving their problems in a game-breaking way.

[RMS Oceanic]

Maxrah calls it as she sees it.

[Metastachydium]

O
Xykon thinks the plan is to make him ruler of the world. Ending the world for the good of goblinkind isn't really on his agenda.

To quote myself: „[Xykon] does know that Redcloak's (nominal or actual) goal is to make the goblinoids' life better through the Plan. He also does (or, at any rate, ought to) know that meddling with the Gates might bring about the end of the world. Redcloak did not say anything that incriminates him thus far.”

[Potatopeelerkin]

Well, she's not exactly happy with the current lot of her tribe, and the whole shtick of her folks is taking huge risks (i.e. hunting monsters that reside in Kraagor's Tomb) for little reward.

It sounds like a lot of their essentials (panels 7-9) come from monsters hunted from Kraagor's tomb, so I think they get quite a significant reward out of it. You don't get to survive in such a harsh environment by deliberately making things harder for yourself.

Heck, she even says the only reason she's helping is to ensure the hollow doesn't get bled dry.

[Cryos]

How many levels does Maxrah have? I think she must have some ranks in intimidation with those burns.

If she's his cohort then at most three levels below his, so she'd be a couple spell levels behind him.

Also this comic reminds me of a quote from Bojack Horseman: "You can't just keep doing ****ty thing and then feeling sorry about them!" or something like that.

Redcloak's sunk cost fallacy is going to get him killed, I agree with his sentiments but not his implementation. I'd have said "execution" but that's likely to happen at some point given what we know about Xykon and the MITD

[Kantaki]

Gods, I love Oona (and Greyview).
Can't the comic follow her from now?

[Metastachydium]

Don' have it handy at the moment (I should pickup the pdf sometime), but to memory:

Spoiler: SOD

Show

Redcloak was clear that they would capture the gate and make things better for the goblins by threatening the gods, Xykon felt that they could use if to improve his lot also - that is effectively Redcloak's plan as he introduced it to Xykon, nothing said to the Dwarves changes that.

The Dwarves haven't for instance been told that The Plan is for The Dark One to get control of the Gate rather then Redcloak and Xykon.

Xykon could be pissed that Redcloak didn't include him in the discussions but nothing Oona and Greyview know likely changes his understanding.

Heck, Redcloak explicitly tells him that

Spoiler: SoD, p. 44

Show

the „Gate could be made to serve the Dark One's bidding.” On the next page, Xykon agrees to share the world with the goblins.

[Potatopeelerkin]

Gods, I love Oona (and Greyview).
Can't the comic follow her from now?

I heartily endorse this sentiment.

Maybe next time Rich releases a bonus book it'll have an Oona segment. One can only hope.

[Dausuul]

Well, she's not exactly happy with the current lot of her tribe, and the whole shtick of her folks is taking huge risks (i.e. hunting monsters that reside in Kraagor's Tomb) for little reward.

My point is that Oona is unlikely to consider "We all die, but hypothetical future goblinoids get a nice deal" to be a reward.

Redcloak might be able to get her on board with "TDO blackmails the gods into improving our lot in this world," but if she becomes convinced that the gods really will destroy the world to stop Redcloak, and she sees that Redcloak knows this and is determined to go ahead anyway, then she has no reason to stick by him and every reason to sell him out. It's already been established that she feels no particular loyalty to the Dark One.

[Metastachydium]

It sounds like a lot of their essentials (panels 7-9) come from monsters hunted from Kraagor's tomb, so I think they get quite a significant reward out of it. You don't get to survive in such a harsh environment by deliberately making things harder for yourself.

Heck, she even says the only reason she's helping is to ensure the hollow doesn't get bled dry.

The same strip establishes that they only need it because they couldn't survive without in icy ice, and they only live on icy ice because dwarves won't chase them there. Sure, Oona likes her stylish yet functional mask, but seriously. Greyview has such a grey view for a reason.

[137beth]

I love how "only humans" is the really weird possibility

And if Oona's noticed, then it seems like there's a higher probability that the MitD or Xykon could notice soon (if they haven't already), so Durkon and Minrah are going to have to get out soon.

[Metastachydium]

My point is that Oona is unlikely to consider "We all die, but hypothetical future goblinoids get a nice deal" to be a reward.

No, but she might find it's an acceptable risk if the symbiosis of her tribe with Monster Hollow is anything to go by.

Redcloak might be able to get her on board with "TDO blackmails the gods into improving our lot in this world,"

Yes, she likes that idea.

but if she becomes convinced that the gods really will destroy the world to stop Redcloak, and she sees that Redcloak knows this and is determined to go ahead anyway, then she has no reason to stick by him and every reason to sell him out. It's already been established that she feels no particular loyalty to the Dark One.

Redcloak does not know the gods are really going to destroy the world, and Oona does not have much reason to believe that this is actually the case, either. All she knows is this: there might be a risk involved and Redcloak is willing to take that risk.

[Potatopeelerkin]

The same strip establishes that they only need it because they couldn't survive without in icy ice, and they only live on icy ice because dwarves won't chase them there. Sure, Oona likes her stylish yet functional mask, but seriously. Greyview has such a grey view for a reason.

It seems like the less risky choice though, doesn't it? When given the option between fighting to live in a nice place or choosing somewhere that's harsh and cold but relatively safe, they picked the latter.

I'm sure Oona would like to not be chased by dwarves, but would she be willing to take the insane risk Redcloak is, or see value in a potential future in which her whole clan is dead? I doubt it. Seems like they'd rather be isolated than endangered.

[Mic_128]

Oh, and this whole exchange with Redcloak validates Roy's reasoning for wanting to take Xykon out first, then negotiate with Redcloak.

With Xykon out of the picture then there is no hope for the plan. That's the only way Redcloak is going to listen, if he even does.

He's already hinted at - and now outright admitted - he has no problems with simply destroying the gate. If they had taken out Xykon, he probably would have just smashed the gate. At least now, maybe, their words might cause him to hesitate.

[Metastachydium]

It seems like the less risky choice though, doesn't it? When given the option between fighting to live in a nice place or choosing somewhere that's harsh and cold but relatively safe, they picked the latter.

She chose having to fight monsters somewhere that's harsh and cold over fighting dwarves in a nice place. Sure, the latter might have ended in the tribe being exterminated, but the former only lets them linger on and it's far from safe.

I'm sure Oona would like to not be chased by dwarves, but would she be willing to take the insane risk Redcloak is, or see value in a potential future in which her whole clan is dead? I doubt it. Seems like they'd rather be isolated than endangered.

My answer to your question would be this: I don't know. It is possible she would take the risk. An ill-conceived raid on Kraagor's Tomb can cripple the tribe as well, after all. As Freyr said, there's no profit without a little risk and Oona seems to kinda-sorta enjoy living dangerously.
Anyhow, Redcloak does not intend to destroy the world. He's a litlle too chill about the prospect of that stupid Plan B coming to effect, but that's not his goal. I'd say they could talk things over with Oona.

[understatement]

OK, so the Monster should be coming out soon enough, with something like "oh! Xykon's back" causing RC, Durkon, and Minrah to collectively go "oh, crap."

I absolutely love Minrah here, but she's doing Roy's "knock back a spellcaster so they might have enough space to cast" manuever, which...really isn't a good idea? Redcloak's expression last panel reminds me a bit of Tarquin picking himself up after he falls off the triceratops.

[Austin's Dad]

Oooh! Panel 7 is a Babylon 5 paraphrase (from S3e22). I haven't see one of those since strip #911 panel 5 (from S3e21) - at least, none that I have identified as such.

[Vendanna]

Wow, what a strip!

First: dang, no periodic elemental. No sodium upcoming, sorry.

Second: Yes! Oona's back!

Third: Okay, Maxrah's smackdown on RC was too satisfying to put into words, so I'll just a huge smilie here instead.

I wonder what would be stronger an Iron Golem, or an Iron Elemental cast by Red cloak. but would be similar creatures. :o

[Doug Lampert]

So um, I'm going to bring up the bugbear in the room (well the other bugbear, people have already talked about Oona sidelining herself on purpose) and say...isn't it a little incongruous that Roy had to learn a special technique in order to have even a % chance to interrupt a spellcasting, yet Minrah pulls it off just by smashing Redcloak with a hammer?

Thinking on it, I see two plausible explanations:

a) The combination of the hammer blow and the psychological warfare was at least enough to force a Concentration check, which Redcloak failed; or

b) The hammer, at that time, is quite a bit larger than Roy's sword and I'm erroneously comparing the force from being smacked with a stick to the force from a blow slightly more extreme than a Looney-Tunes anvil from above.

I'm curious if anyone has additional thoughts.

Summon Monster is a full round spell (others have mentioned this). It takes all his actions on the round cast, so he can't even 5' step away, and it doesn't go off till everyone else has taken an action, and it can be interrupted at any time from when you start casting, to the start of your next round. Cast it in melee, you need to cast defensively in order to ONLY face a full attack from your opponent. The concentration check DC is 10+damage done, and the Hammer of Loki Sucks probably does a fair amount of damage.

Basically, it's a horrible choice to cast in melee, and trying it says Red Cloak is either so flustered he's making bad choices, or he's not used to being in direct combat, or he's so loaded on buffs and support spells that he's got almost nothing offensive. Or multiples of these at once.

[Potatopeelerkin]

She chose having to fight monsters somewhere that's harsh and cold over fighting dwarves in a nice place. Sure, the latter might have ended in the tribe being exterminated, but the former only lets them linger on and it's far from safe.

There's inherent danger in hunting, sure, but it's generally a known quantity. Especially once you've done it many times so you know what to expect. The monsters exist to protect the tomb, so it seems unlikely it'd wipe the clan out. At worst they might take out some hunters which would make things pretty hard for a while, but I'm sure they have stores and a backup plan in case that happens. It's bound to happen eventually, so it'd be silly not to.

The point is it's nowhere near as huge a risk as the one Redcloak is taking. Living near Kraagor's tomb has some risk, but nowhere near as much. The fate of the clan would likely not be decided from a single hunting mission.

I'd say they could talk things over with Oona.

They probably could, but I think so could the Order. I think she could be brought over to either side. She does say Minrah brings up an interesting point.

[2D8HP]

I have missed Greyview.

[...]Yay, Greyview! Words are just pretty hat we put on ugly truths. [...]

[..]Greyview has such a grey view for a reason.

Agreed, I for one am eager to subscribe to The Greyview View newsletter!

[Wowlock]

Well, he is a lost cause. Kill him and give the mantle to an actually REASONABLE goblin that sees the ACTUAL big picture. Redcloak is too far gone in his fantasy in his head or in his ego. He is no different than Xykon now.

[P.LOC]

Oh, and this whole exchange with Redcloak validates Roy's reasoning for wanting to take Xykon out first, then negotiate with Redcloak.

With Xykon out of the picture then there is no hope for the plan. That's the only way Redcloak is going to listen, if he even does.

Even if I think Roy was right, he was just talking about stopping the immediate threat. Fighting Xykon would have mean fighting RC as well, and I suspect RC (assuming he had survived the battle) wouldn't have listened them after the battle.

Also, but OOTS don't know that, without Xykon, Redcloak would have turned to Plan B, trying to destroy the gate

[sillymel]

I think this strip confirms that the Thor’s Might spell came from the hammer, not from Minrah.

So um, I'm going to bring up the bugbear in the room (well the other bugbear, people have already talked about Oona sidelining herself on purpose) and say...isn't it a little incongruous that Roy had to learn a special technique in order to have even a % chance to interrupt a spellcasting, yet Minrah pulls it off just by smashing Redcloak with a hammer?

Thinking on it, I see two plausible explanations:

a) The combination of the hammer blow and the psychological warfare was at least enough to force a Concentration check, which Redcloak failed; or

b) The hammer, at that time, is quite a bit larger than Roy's sword and I'm erroneously comparing the force from being smacked with a stick to the force from a blow slightly more extreme than a Looney-Tunes anvil from above.

I'm curious if anyone has additional thoughts.

I would think that getting hammered tends to mess with one’s ability to concentrate.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

OK, so the Monster should be coming out soon enough, with something like "oh! Xykon's back" causing RC, Durkon, and Minrah to collectively go "oh, crap."

You have to remember, this is not a weird thing to happen to team evil. They get attacked by adventurer teams a lot - RC recalls one time a bunch of druids came out of their office plant. If Xykon comes over, RC can just say, "yeah, a couple of dwarven clerics showed up spouting a bunch of nonsense about their god's mission to end our quest for control of the Snarl" and it'll be perfectly plausible.

I think this strip confirms that the Thor’s Might spell came from the hammer, not from Minrah.

No, I'd say this strip confirms the opposite - that she cast this spell herself. Not only because she says she's casted it, but also because if the source of the enlargement was coming from the hammer, she'd mention it when suggesting dropping it.

Grey Wolf

[Anansiil]

Another round of applause for stellar writing!

It's interesting how certain kinds of people care so much more about principles than they do actual people. So much belief in a system that if people suffer, it's fine because that system is the best system...and it's so great that if people suffer it might just be their own fault.

Those pretty words will sting Red Cloak for the rest of his life, I'm sure.

[sillymel]

No, I'd say this strip confirms the opposite - that she cast this spell herself. Not only because she says she's casted it, but also because if the source of the enlargement was coming from the hammer, she'd mention it when suggesting dropping it.

Grey Wolf

Oh, wait. I misinterpreted what Minrah said in the first panel. I think you’re right.

[The MunchKING]

This rather depends on how many people get here before the fight is over.

Killing witnesses doesn’t work when people witness you doing it.

And any plan where I lose my hat is... a bad plan?

Indeed. Any plan where you lose your hat is a bad plan!

Dang it, we got a Jagerninja here...

Well excuse me for not being familiar with a random spell of a game I’ve never played.

Redcloak has used it before.

It works if you kill the witnesses of the killing of the witnesses, then kill the witnesses of the killing of the witnesses of the killing of the witnesses... and so on. It's standard procedure for seasoned murderhobbos D&D players.

The dirigible's going to go down in flames, you know.

[understatement]

You have to remember, this is not a weird thing to happen to team evil. They get attacked by adventurer teams a lot - RC recalls one time a bunch of druids came out of their office plant. If Xykon comes over, RC can just say, "yeah, a couple of dwarven clerics showed up spouting a bunch of nonsense about their god's mission to end our quest for control of the Snarl" and it'll be perfectly plausible.

Grey Wolf

That makes sense -- I always keep forgetting the druid tidbit.