OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread

[KorvinStarmast]

Oona's already established they don't have strong feelings about TDO, and are probably just in it for personal economic reasons rather than caring about the affairs of gods the way Redcloak does...Perhaps they'd feel differently if they knew how likely their plan could end in death for them all even if it was successful.

All good points. I am on board with your angle on this.

Of course, that means Redcloak is likely to kill her for the same reason he killed Tsukiko: He can't risk her revealing the truth to Xykon.

Hmm, Reddy has his hands full at the moment. Also, unlike Tsukiko, Oona isn't trying to elbow him aside for favored acces to Xykon's inner circle. Not seeing him kill Oona.

and the whole shtick of her folks is taking huge risks (i.e. hunting monsters that reside in Kraagor's Tomb) for little reward.

Hmm, they are here due to being shoved aside by one of the 'favored races' I guess. So why she isn't lashing out at two dwarves - dwarves it was who drove them to live on the ice - will be interesting to see in subsequent strips.

Maybe next time Rich releases a bonus book it'll have an Oona segment. One can only hope.

I'd buy that in a second.

Agreed, I for one am eager to subscribe to The Greyview View newsletter!

Hey, there you are. And so would I!

[Ionathus]

The new bearer would still need to have a 9th spell slot, which is something I highly doubt any other Dark One worshipper is anywhere near to having access to.

Oh, don't worry, they addressed that in the "Thor's plan...narrative purpose" thread -- several people have argued that a mass of low-level clerics of TDO could combine their spell slots to simulate the power of a 9th level spell.

To which I say, "absolute phooey." Lots of people are constructing more and more convoluted reasons to write Redcloak out of this story, even as he finally gets the rebuttal he's deserved for hundreds of pages. We finally get to see his ideas be tested, and see him called out as a hypocrite. My personal prediction is that this exchange will become a seed of doubt, and I look forward to seeing it bear some fruit down the road.

Minrah proves herself to be awesome again. Spot on with the attack against his hypocrisy and lies about caring about Goblins!

Minrah is just so great. I am loving her blunt, no-nonsense fury in this scene -- and glad that I was wrong when I predicted she couldn't do much damage to Redcloak! Still think they need to get out of there pronto, but I appreciate her staying to call him out directly.

I knew Redcloak would ignore the idea that the Dark One might not survive. It's just too much of a convenient fact, it works too well as a threat. Hopefully though, the Dark One is listening in. Redcloak doesn't need to change his mind or cast the 9th level spell, if the Dark One just comes out and talks to Thor, that's a win.

This was my thought, too. When you're negotiating, you don't get to just lay every single point on the table, one after the other. If you do, it'll often seem like you're making thinly-veiled excuses (and whaddya know, that's exactly how RC interpreted it). It's a dialogue. Durkon opened with the most critical point, and started asking Redcloak questions about what he wanted, then engaged him in those desires. That's how a negotiation ought to go, and I don't fault Durkon for his approach. Durkon's point in the last page ("I didn't think it was necessary to mention, since Redcloak seemed to care about this world") is spot-on.

[Jaziggy]

Spinoff proposal: Oona and Minrah, roomates in the big city as they confront the challenges of work, friends, love... and cleaning up after that dire wolf after his walks.

I'm surprised Durkon isn't bugging out, but maybe he's expecting the rest of the Order to drop in any second. I know I am; everyone was 100% geared up for the 'final fight' so why not just go kick down the door now the Durkon has whacked the hornet's nest with T.H.O.R.S. Hammer.

[Metastachydium]

There's inherent danger in hunting, sure, but it's generally a known quantity. Especially once you've done it many times so you know what to expect. The monsters exist to protect the tomb, so it seems unlikely it'd wipe the clan out. At worst they might take out some hunters which would make things pretty hard for a while, but I'm sure they have stores and a backup plan in case that happens. It's bound to happen eventually, so it'd be silly not to.

The point is it's nowhere near as huge a risk as the one Redcloak is taking. Redcloak is betting the longshot- loss means losing everything, success means winning everything. Living near Kraagor's tomb has some risk, but nowhere near as much. The fate of the clan would likely not be decided from a single hunting mission.

While a hunting mission gone wrong could mean the village gets nothing out of it, and another party from a smaller pool has to go back shortly after, still shaken, which increases the chance of another mistake, which in turn can initiate a downward spiral which results in hurry, panic and ultimately catastrophal losses &c. &c., it is indeed true that Redcloak's gamble probably invlves more risk than anything ever did in this cycle. Nevertheless, as far as Redcloak (and Oona) knows winning means winning everything, while losing might only mean a change of schedule. Losing everything might happen due to some accident or unforeseen interference, but for Redcloak, the chance of such an accident happening seems to be no higher than the chance of the scenario about the Tomb I outlined above coming into play. As for Oona, she might enjoy watching the fight (which reminds him of the bugbears' own brand of debating matters), but she has little reason to believe the old enemies of her subspecies.

They probably could, but I think so could the Order. I think she could be brought over to either side. She does say Minrah brings up an interesting point.

Redcloak offered her something realistic which she liked. Durkon's been explaining that the goblins are equalk enough as they are because some of them have a single, small, vulnerable nation somewhere else just a minute ago, while sitting near the village of a bugbear clan his species chased away from the habitable portion of the realm.

[KorvinStarmast]

And any plan where I lose my hat is... a bad plan?

The dirigible's going to go down in flames, you know.

That strip looks like a lot like Phil Foglio art style. Is that one of his? Been ages since I saw his stuff.

My personal prediction is that this exchange will become a seed of doubt, and I look forward to seeing it bear some fruit down the road.

Given how Rich writes, I like your position on this.

[Baine]

everyone was 100% geared up for the 'final fight' so why not just go kick down the door now the Durkon has whacked the hornet's nest with T.H.O.R.S. Hammer.

The Hammer Of (R)oki Sucks?

[Ionathus]

I love how Redcloak is constantly switching beween "I" and "We". Meaning that not even himself believes that his talking is representative of the Goblinoid People.

Agreed, it's happened like three times in this debate scene already, and really drives home how self-centered his mindset is. Really loving that discrepancy and wondering if/how he'll come to grips with it.

Of course, that means Redcloak is likely to kill her for the same reason he killed Tsukiko: He can't risk her revealing the truth to Xykon.

My money's on "There's no reason for Redcloak to try killing her." Like others have said, there's nothing incriminating that she could've overheard -- and Xykon already knows from SoD that The Plan is supposed to improve the lives of the goblins, and that it risks the destruction of the entire world.

Well excuse me for not being familiar with a random spell of a game I’ve never played.

Pretty sure that was just a quote from Greg casting Control Weather back at the start of Utterly Dwarfed, not a personal criticism

[danielxcutter]

Redcloak is a extremist hypocrite, but even so people are way too quick to write him down as a lost cause either because they don’t like him or possibly the even worse reason of “I don’t want to think about the goblins”. Which is missing the entire point.

[Ionathus]

(snip)
Basically, it's a horrible choice to cast in melee, and trying it says Red Cloak is either so flustered he's making bad choices, or he's not used to being in direct combat, or he's so loaded on buffs and support spells that he's got almost nothing offensive. Or multiples of these at once.

Ooh, that's a good prediction. He's trying to save his energy for the Gate search.

Or: maybe his heart's not fully in it, and now that he's being called out by other clerics he wants to verbally "defeat" them before he physically defeats them, just to prove to himself he's in the right?

Well, he is a lost cause. Kill him and give the mantle to an actually REASONABLE goblin that sees the ACTUAL big picture. Redcloak is too far gone in his fantasy in his head or in his ego. He is no different than Xykon now.

You would love the "Thor's plan has already fulfilled its narrative purpose" thread currently on this forum. I disagree with you 100%, for both in-story and real-world reasons, but you might find some stuff you'll like in there.

That makes sense -- I always keep forgetting the druid tidbit.

I wonder if Redcloak will want to downplay this interaction with Xykon...maybe tell him that it was just some nearby do-gooder Dwarves trying to attack a goblin? I know Oona's right there but maybe he'll find a way to do it.

It'd be an interesting and clever way to reverse his position the last time they encountered the Order and Redcloak's claims of their importance were dismissed by Xykon...maybe he could play it smart and lean into that.

[RatElemental]

Oona once again being awesome. I don't even have anything else to say right now, haven't even read the thread.

[bunsen_h]

Hang onto your hat! (Gratiuitous reference to Young Frankenstein)

"When a German scientist tells you to hold on to your hat, it's not casual conversation. HOLD ON TO YOUR HAT! HAT! HOLD!" (Gratuitous Muppet Movie reference)

She chose having to fight monsters somewhere that's harsh and cold over fighting dwarves in a nice place. Sure, the latter might have ended in the tribe being exterminated, but the former only lets them linger on and it's far from safe.

I think it's likely that Oona didn't create the current setup, but rather is just dealing with the situation she grew up in. Getting the bugbears to leave the village, to try to start a new life in a better environment, would be a big step. What they're living with now is difficult, but it's stable.

Oooh! Panel 7 is a Babylon 5 paraphrase (from S3e22). I haven't see one of those since strip #911 panel 5 (from S3e21) - at least, none that I have identified as such.

I've just read the transcript of that episode ("Z'ha'dum"), and I'm not seeing the connection.

[Ruck]

I just don’t think Redcloak is going to get out of having to justify his actions here to her.

Yeah, agreed.

Nah, by the end of the page they’re just calling him out on his bull.

And boy, it sure makes him angry that Minrah has his number so well despite knowing nothing about him previously.

[Jaziggy]

The Hammer Of (R)oki Sucks?

One of the benefits of my proposed naming convention is that it can be whatever it needs to be.

In this strip and in Minrah's hands, it's The Hammer Of Rhetorical Splendor

[Fyraltari]

Oh, come on. Being able to bail out of a fight is not trivializing on anywhere near the scale of being able to go wherever you like whenever you like.

If you were fighting in the first place, there was a reason for it (or the writer wasn't doing their job). You had something to win, or something to lose. Noping out of the fight means you don't win and you do lose. Whatever the stakes were, you forfeited them to the villain.

The only case where word of recall would have changed anything is the Malack fight, and there are any number of reasons Durkon might not have used it there--the simplest being that he just didn't prepare it that day. A 6th-level slot is a big honkin' spell slot to devote to an escape hatch that will leave you stranded far from the action, if you don't have a specific reason to believe you will need it.

Look, all I’m saying is that it wasn’t an unreasonable assumption on my part, as that spell really invalidates most « lethal danger » situations like that time they were chased through the desert by a boomer off his med and his old war buddies.

I love how "only humans" is the really weird possibility

I mean, a world with only humans on it would be really weird. Your food? Human flesh. Your clothes? Human skin. The oil for your car and plastic? Decomposed humans. Your cabin in the woods? Human bones. The woods? Human planted on the ground for some reason.

He's already hinted at - and now outright admitted - he has no problems with simply destroying the gate. If they had taken out Xykon, he probably would have just smashed the gate. At least now, maybe, their words might cause him to hesitate.

Spoiler: SoD

Show

Problem is, if he destroys the last Gate then he « protected » Xykon from Right-Eye for nothing. If Xykon dies, he’s going to have a break-down.

Well, he is a lost cause. Kill him and give the mantle to an actually REASONABLE goblin that sees the ACTUAL big picture. Redcloak is too far gone in his fantasy in his head or in his ego. He is no different than Xykon now.

Nah. Redcloak knows what he’s doing is wrong and he hates himself for it. He’s just too mired in self-deception to do anything about it because he’s too craven to admit it.
Xykon knows what he’s doing is wrong and he finds it funny.

You have to remember, this is not a weird thing to happen to team evil. They get attacked by adventurer teams a lot - RC recalls one time a bunch of druids came out of their office plant. If Xykon comes over, RC can just say, "yeah, a couple of dwarven clerics showed up spouting a bunch of nonsense about their god's mission to end our quest for control of the Snarl" and it'll be perfectly plausible.

The part where he sat down to negotiate with one of them, however...

Redcloak has used it before.

And I was supposed to conclude that the spell was on Clerical standard list from that how exactly?

That strip looks like a lot like Phil Foglio art style. Is that one of his? Been ages since I saw his stuff.

Yup. Girl Genius, a (web)comic he and his wife have been making for years now. It’s quite fun, even though it tends to meander a bit.

The Hammer Of (R)oki Sucks?

Japanese Roki wolst Roki.

[Bartok]

Are there any other clerics of the Dark One capable of casting 9th level spells?

Not that I know of, but it's a long book, and someone could level up a few times.

[Psyren]

Congrats to Minrah for actually explaining the full situation. Obviously Redcloak is too far up his own posterior to properly consider the information now, but it will likely stick with him after this scene has conlcuded. Even more importantly, another goblinoid heard it and Redcloak's response to it.

The part where he sat down to negotiate with one of them, however...

It's a pretty safe bet Xykon didn't see that, or he'd have already been over there - and with the table and stools now smashed by Minrah, there's no evidence of such a sit-down having taken place, as long as Oona keeps her mouth shut. (In fact, Durkon likely made sure Xykon was nowhere nearby before even landing.)

[dancrilis]

(In fact, Durkon likely made sure Xykon was nowhere nearby before even landing.)

Haley and Vaarsuvius saw Xykon when they scouted, so it is a good bet he is around somewhere (panel 6).

[understatement]

Not that I know of, but it's a long book, and someone could level up a few times.

Considering no goblin cleric has shown even to be level 10, "leveling up a few times" is not something easily viable when four out of five rifts are leaking open.

***

These past strips have been so good. Which will prevail -- the unstoppable force of dwarven Lawful Good, or the immovable object of sunk-cost-fallacy Lawful Evil?

[Psyren]

Haley and Vaarsuvius saw Xykon when they scouted, so it is a good bet he is around somewhere (panel 6).

Yes of course, but that was back when they scouted the canyon initially - not when Durkon landed next to Redcloak to begin talking to him. He's definitely in the area somewhere.

[Worldsong]

Ooh, that's a good prediction. He's trying to save his energy for the Gate search.

Or: maybe his heart's not fully in it, and now that he's being called out by other clerics he wants to verbally "defeat" them before he physically defeats them, just to prove to himself he's in the right?

Aren't both Implosion and Summon Monster domain spells? To me it looks like Redcloak is mostly using stuff that wouldn't be as useful inside the dungeon.

Of course I don't know a lot about clerics and for all I know he's going all out with the most powerful stuff.

Look, all I’m saying is that it wasn’t an unreasonable assumption on my part, as that spell really invalidates most « lethal danger » situations like that time they were chased through the desert by a boomer off his med and his old war buddies.

I agree that it's unlikely that Durkon is going to be using Word of Recall, although I disagree with the notion that the protagonists should be disallowed from sacrificing high level spell slots for disengagement opportunities with strict limitations. For me that falls a bit short of the line of 'too convenient for the good guys to have'.

That aside, I think that's the best description of Tarquin & Pals I've heard so far.

Not that I know of, but it's a long book, and someone could level up a few times.

So far we haven't seen any evidence of there being another cleric in the world who can use 9th level spells and an outright suggestion from Haley and Belkar that Redcloak might be the only one.

People keep bringing up the idea that they can just get another divine caster who gains their power from the Dark One and who can cast 9th level spell slots but it just sounds like a cop-out to me.

[RatElemental]

Might not even have to level another cleric up. Thor just needs a 9th level spell slot worth of purple quiddity, but a lot of lower level clerics tossing in 20 3rd level slots might add up, or the Dark One could come around after talking to Redcloak in the afterlife and provide it himself.

I think Redcloak's going to do it, but I don't think this is a good argument for why he specifically has to.

[Ionathus]

Aren't both Implosion and Summon Monster domain spells? To me it looks like Redcloak is mostly using stuff that wouldn't be as useful inside the dungeon.

Of course I don't know a lot about clerics and for all I know he's going all out with the most powerful stuff.

Implosion would be deadly-useful in the dungeon (literally!), though maybe the baddies in there have proven immune to insta-kill effects, much like the old Final Fantasy bosses always being immune in the same ways? (Vanish/Doom glitch combo notwithstanding)

Summon Monster also feels very effective -- if only for action-economy reasons, to give Team Evil a front line buffer against the dungeon monsters. I know MitD is established as being pretty tough, and didn't have any umbrella scrapes after their last on-panel dungeon crawl, but aside from that their team is two casters (i.e. squishier than front-line fighters) and a mid-level bugbear with her dire wolf companion. Some summoned muscle would be a good idea, IMO.

So far we haven't seen any evidence of there being another cleric in the world who can use 9th level spells and an outright suggestion from Haley and Belkar that Redcloak might be the only one.

People keep bringing up the idea that they can just get another divine caster who gains their power from the Dark One and who can cast 9th level spell slots but it just sounds like a cop-out to me.

Yes, thank you. There's been a lot of work done to establish that high-level divine casters are exceedingly rare -- trying to write one into predictions just to "prove" that Redcloak isn't necessary seems like a massive excuse when Thor has already bluntly told Durkon "you need to convince Redcloak."

Might not even have to level another cleric up. Thor just needs a 9th level spell slot worth of purple quiddity, but a lot of lower level clerics tossing in 20 3rd level slots might add up, or the Dark One could come around after talking to Redcloak in the afterlife and provide it himself.

I think Redcloak's going to do it, but I don't think this is a good argument for why he specifically has to.

This just doesn't add up for me (pun intended). The whole reason Thor said "you just need Redcloak to agree to cast a 9th level ritual" read to me like Rich establishing a Win Condition for the book. If there was another way to do it, Thor would've said it more vaguely, but he didn't. I think we're supposed to assume that a 9th level spell, from The Dark One's high priest, is currently the only way to create Four-Color Gates. Maybe there are other options, maybe in theory 20 low-level priests could do it, but we're not going to get that answer from this story, because Redcloak's 9th-level spell is still their goal.

[Darth Paul]

I would think that getting hammered tends to mess with one’s ability to concentrate.

We're talking about getting hit with a hammer, or what are we talking about exactly?

[Baine]

We're talking about getting hit with a hammer, or what are we talking about exactly?

Thor made it; it's probably got a hidden booze flask somewhere inside.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I love Oona. If Redcloak dies, can she be the new High Priest?

[Doug Lampert]

Might not even have to level another cleric up. Thor just needs a 9th level spell slot worth of purple quiddity, but a lot of lower level clerics tossing in 20 3rd level slots might add up, or the Dark One could come around after talking to Redcloak in the afterlife and provide it himself.

I think Redcloak's going to do it, but I don't think this is a good argument for why he specifically has to.

Doylist reasoning says that this won't be solved by TDO or by a bunch of other TDO clerics. The solution of another cleric leveling up or of using lots of low level clerics might work in world, or it might not be practical, but it's not terribly relevant to the story because that's not how they're going to solve the problem.

The problem will ultimately be solved by TOotS. They may or may not use anything like Thor's plan to do it. But if they solve the problems by sealing the snarl in with a 4 quidity seal as Thor suggested, then the purple quidity will be provided by Red Cloak, because he's the cleric of TDO that we've been following for many books and that the order has interacted with.

If they can't convince Red Cloak, then they'll use a solution that either somehow forces Red Cloak to help them despite not being convinced, or they'll pull a different option out of their hats.

[Worldsong]

Might not even have to level another cleric up. Thor just needs a 9th level spell slot worth of purple quiddity, but a lot of lower level clerics tossing in 20 3rd level slots might add up, or the Dark One could come around after talking to Redcloak in the afterlife and provide it himself.

I think Redcloak's going to do it, but I don't think this is a good argument for why he specifically has to.

I do actually believe that the suggestion that Redcloak could be replaced by a whole bunch of lower level goblinoid clerics is one of the more reasonable suggestions since it's less of an asspull (doesn't require unknown factors or diminishes Redcloak's status as the strongest cleric in the world). I do, however, consider that a different argument from 'we'll just get another cleric capable of casting 9th level spells while worshipping the Dark One.'

Implosion would be deadly-useful in the dungeon (literally!), though maybe the baddies in there have proven immune to insta-kill effects, much like the old Final Fantasy bosses always being immune in the same ways? (Vanish/Doom glitch combo notwithstanding)

Summon Monster also feels very effective -- if only for action-economy reasons, to give Team Evil a front line buffer against the dungeon monsters. I know MitD is established as being pretty tough, and didn't have any umbrella scrapes after their last on-panel dungeon crawl, but aside from that their team is two casters (i.e. squishier than front-line fighters) and a mid-level bugbear with her dire wolf companion. Some summoned muscle would be a good idea, IMO.

The impression I got from Implosion was that given its all-or-nothing nature it wouldn't be very effective against higher level enemies who are too likely to make their saving throw or have spell resistance. In a normal campaign I imagine you'd use it to get rid of the villain's meatshields and mooks to twist the action economy in your favour.

As for Summon Monster, you have a point that action economy is important and that Team Evil could use another meatshield. Maybe my view is a bit coloured because when I played a druid the only time summoning more allies felt useful was when I used a giant snake to grapple one of our enemies. Outside of that scenario it seemed like everything I could summon would be too weak to be very useful.

[Ionathus]

Doylist reasoning says that this won't be solved by TDO or by a bunch of other TDO clerics. The solution of another cleric leveling up or of using lots of low level clerics might work in world, or it might not be practical, but it's not terribly relevant to the story because that's not how they're going to solve the problem.

The problem will ultimately be solved by TOotS. They may or may not use anything like Thor's plan to do it. But if they solve the problems by sealing the snarl in with a 4 quidity seal as Thor suggested, then the purple quidity will be provided by Red Cloak, because he's the cleric of TDO that we've been following for many books and that the order has interacted with.

If they can't convince Red Cloak, then they'll use a solution that either somehow forces Red Cloak to help them despite not being convinced, or they'll pull a different option out of their hats.

I don't have any response to this: I just want to thank you for articulating all of the swirling thoughts I've had across the last few weeks so clearly and cleanly. This is one of the best breakdowns of my problems with the "They can just do X for the Purple Quiddity instead of Redcloak!" arguments, so thank you for that!

As for Summon Monster, you have a point that action economy is important and that Team Evil could use another meatshield. Maybe my view is a bit coloured because when I played a druid the only time summoning more allies felt useful was when I used a giant snake to grapple one of our enemies. Outside of that scenario it seemed like everything I could summon would be too weak to be very useful.

I've been that druid (in 5e, admittedly, so rules might be different) and got a LOT of mileage out of summoning! 8 wolves became my signature spell for awhile, and since our DM liked to throw single monsters who weren't immune to the Prone condition, they were surprisingly effective at softening the bad guys up for our attackers.

[Worldsong]

I've been that druid (in 5e, admittedly, so rules might be different) and got a LOT of mileage out of summoning! 8 wolves became my signature spell for awhile, and since our DM liked to throw single monsters who weren't immune to the Prone condition, they were surprisingly effective at softening the bad guys up for our attackers.

My druid was also in 5e (after that I stuck to Pathfinder for various reasons), and admittedly I would have used the giant snake more often if the campaign had lasted much longer after that.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Gods have I missed Oona and Greyview. And I never knew how much I wanted to see Redcloak get smashed in the face repeatedly by a gigantic dwarf cleric.