OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread

[Olinser]

It's kinda funny, in a tragic way, how much in opposition Redcloak's methods are to his goals. He's planning on building a treehouse in the tree he just cut down for materials.

I don't think we'd be spending this much time pointing out the (many, many) flaws in Redcloak's reasoning if he's just going to be replaced later on. He's going to have a wake-up call at some point, probably not soon, and then ... Well, i originally considered him irredeemable (not for his actions, but because of his unwillingness to own up to them for what they are), but i've come to believe there's a chance. It's still possible for a plausible, narratively satisfying alternative to Thor's plan to be brought up, but i wouldn't bet on Redcloak not being involved.

I don't think Redcloak IS going to have a wake-up call. I think that he's going to get killed by MitD when he finally tries to betray Xykon firing the setup from so long ago, and then he finally meets the Dark One, who was watching this entire exchange, and who tells him to shut up and do the ritual. And I think that he's going to refuse to do it, get mind controlled, and have it done for him.

Because all of this is just to feed REDCLOAK's ego and victim complex. He's just using being the priest of the Dark One as an excuse. HE is the one making the plans, and HE knows better.

[Sapphire Guard]

Reddy has no real reason to believe them, sadly. Makes sense. He might be more open with time to reflect, or TDO might have a different opinion.

They're doing rather well against him, though.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Yeah! Best present ever, Giant. A comic to read!

Noice.

Also, this frank exchange of ideas going down in the strip is quite refreshing. Minrah is certainly pulling her weight and thensome. Hitting well above her weight class, even, despite being a giant dwarf.

Pizza is very pleased. I wonder if Redcloak might try and confirm any of what's being said with his God, if he finds it troublesome or worrying that it might be true.

If that message gets to the Dark One then that might change Redcloak's mission priorities, even if he's too stubborn to admit he was wrong.

[Metastachydium]

Neither is Redcloak getting a heel realization, so I guess we can all just go home. No point speculating what might happen, let's just read the comic and then leave and wait for the next one to be posted.

This is a false equivalency.

It's one thing to speculate that many weak Goblinoid clerics could combine to reproduce Redcloak's abilities. I disagree with this assumption, but you can definitely still make it, and we can speculate about it.

It's quite another thing to compare that logical jump to the explicitly-stated goal of Thor & Co.

One option ("convince Redcloak to help") has been set up by the comic already. The other option ("multiple unnamed, unknown goblinoid clerics materialize out of nowhere and are convinced to help, despite not having Redcloak's 9th level spell slots") is wild mass guessing. Many, many things need to be assumed in order to get that to work, narratively, and it would still be less satisfying than the "convince Redcloak" plan.

It's totally fair to submit your theory as possible. But it's nowhere near as established as The Order's current goal.

Precisely. Something established as a possible course of action and a „nameless extras save the world” kind of solution are simply not playing in the same league.
Further, I'd say even „Redcloak needs a heel realization” is a false assumption. Were he to stick to the Plan because of his obsessions andf fallacies and only those (which is debatable), circumventing this obstacle would still be possible. As some of you might know, my personal pet theory is that Team Good Guys should just give Redcloak the Gate (i.e. let him ”win”). If the Dark One is to be believed, he would establish contact with the other gods soon afterwards, and it is possible that he would agree to try out their offer of getting a bigger, better gun with superior magazine capacity (if the majority opinion is correct and spot-welding means permanent leverage) than the Gate-nuke, because he could feel safe with a weapon of mass detruction in his pocket to fall back on.

Reddy has no real reason to believe them, sadly. Makes sense. He might be more open with time to reflect, or TDO might have a different opinion.

That's what I keep saying. I mean, Redcloak is treated as a lunatic by numerous posters for not believing an improbable story told by his enemies. It is funny how assuming that the previous world was just like the one they live in, and so will be the next one (even if the gods will try to eliminate goblins from the equation out of spite) somehow makes Redcloak an idiot, while the Crayons of Time establishes the fact that Shojo/the Order/both also appear not to be able to picture the first world as anything other than a stick-figure universe with dragons, halflings and stuff, and somehow that is perfectly reasonable.

[Rogar Demonblud]

How does he get Reddie away from Xykon to contribute to that fix? (We, on the outside, know that if Redcloak betrays Xykon MiTD eats him ... )

Word of Recall. Plane Shift. Wind Walk. Gate. Et cetera. Redcloak has plenty of ways to get around, and we don't know how long that ritual takes. If it's short enough, RC can bop out, participate, and be back before Xykon notices enough to care. Especially if he times it right for about when he renews spells and Xykon doesn't expect to see him anyway.

[KorvinStarmast]

If that message gets to the Dark One then that might change Redcloak's mission priorities, even if he's too stubborn to admit he was wrong.

That's a non trivial hurdle to get over.

[Ionathus]

...my personal pet theory is that Team Good Guys should just give Redcloak the Gate (i.e. let him ”win”). If the Dark One is to be believed, he would establish contact with the other gods soon afterwards, and it is possible that he would agree to try out their offer of getting a bigger, better gun with superior magazine capacity (if the majority opinion is correct and spot-welding means permanent leverage) than the Gate-nuke, because he could feel safe with a weapon of mass detruction in his pocket to fall back on.

My assumption was that the Gods would never let it get that far: if TDO's High Priest got close to completing the ritual, I'd expect the gods would just unmake the world right then and there to stop him from getting that control.

[Askthepizzaguy]

God, now I just want about a dozen pages of Oona and Minrah talking. Two very blunt, to the point people who are completely different in their viewpoints and experiences just dukin' it out.

Also, go Minrah! Back in the Inbetween Months between the new book and UD, people were being dismissive of her and her compelling inclusion in the cast, and she's smashed those expectations with a bang. Or a boom, in the case of lightning, I suppose.

I wasn't sure how big a role she would play or how she would do, but Rich's narrative just keeps getting better and better. It's been a long time since I've ever felt worried about how the comic would turn out. The ending of the Durkon is a vampire arc sold me that we're all in the hands of a very experienced and talented writer who is going to land this narrative plane like Captain Sully. Flawlessly.

I just trust this man at this point. He can take this story anywhere he wants, and any new characters he introduces won't be shallow props, either. There's been a reason and an arc behind almost everyone except one shot gag characters.

And I feel like one of those who wasn't really a gag might come back. Maybe the gnome shop lady that Belkar liked enough to feel bad about ripping her off. I don't know.

Whatever it is, will surprise me and be excellent to read. This whole book I'm so excited for. More than the last season of game of thrones to be sure.

[Kereea]

I don't think Redcloak IS going to have a wake-up call. I think that he's going to get killed by MitD when he finally tries to betray Xykon firing the setup from so long ago, and then he finally meets the Dark One, who was watching this entire exchange, and who tells him to shut up and do the ritual. And I think that he's going to refuse to do it, get mind controlled, and have it done for him.

Because all of this is just to feed REDCLOAK's ego and victim complex. He's just using being the priest of the Dark One as an excuse. HE is the one making the plans, and HE knows better.

To be entirely fair, we know VERY little about the Dark One as a character and therefore it could go very sideways with him. But yes, this is entirely something that could happen--however, given TDO allegedly communicates via feelings within the mantle, you'd think he'd be FEELING his intentions as strongly as he could at Redcloak if he did have a strong opinion on the matter. Again, this is a god whose most direct communication is having someone else pass along "Don't screw this up. No pressure though" which was recently brought up again during the parley. We really know so little about TDO as a person, only the perception various other characters (Redcloak, Jirix, Right Eye, Oona, other gods) have of him. So while it's a possibility, the probability is entirely up in the air. Tho it would be cool to see his part of the Astral.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I love how Redcloak is constantly switching beween "I" and "We". Meaning that not even himself believes that his talking is representative of the Goblinoid People.

Absolutely. He keeps talking, but his arguments continue to represent things he wishes were true, rather than are true.

It's happened so often that the author is practically screaming this character flaw of Redcloak at us. And it's not only anvillicious, but it's a point that badly needs to be made about Redcloak, and I've been defending his POV as a character for several strips.

He's got a legitimate beef and he's got some good reasons to not trust Durkon here. At the same time, he's full of it and he knows it. He is trying to fill bigger shoes than he honestly can, and he's seriously lacking in being honest with himself, let alone the others around him.

He has a grievance, and his strategy seems to be working so it makes sense for his character to continue.

But he's also lying to everyone and himself about his own moral status or his representing the goblinoid point of view. He can't make that claim, but he keeps trying to.

It's wishful thinking, and "Wishing for a thing does not make it so". Jean-Luc Picard.

[Particle_Man]

Cool stuff! I love Minrah!

I honestly don't know if the "and and" in panel 11 is a typo or just the way Minrah is talking right now.

[Wimblesaurus]

I just want a spinoff comic with Minrah, Greyview, and Oona. Utterly Dwarfed had some great new characters.

[understatement]

Whatever it is, will surprise me and be excellent to read. This whole book I'm so excited for. More than the last season of game of thrones to be sure.

To be fair, was anyone excited for the last season?

-

Since the message delivered in this comic couldn't be hit harder than Redcloak himself, I'll just toss in that

Redcloak's "overgrown dwarven ass" had to make me laugh: it's much appreciated when characters can recognize a living, breathing oxymoron.

Durkon's "weird elemental thing" phrase: I guess the Ti elements really left an impression on him.

The 3rd and 4th panels are hilarious togetheer: Minrah whaps Redcloak in the face, and then starts to deal out discussion.

[Fincher]

This is a false equivalency.

It's one thing to speculate that many weak Goblinoid clerics could combine to reproduce Redcloak's abilities. I disagree with this assumption, but you can definitely still make it, and we can speculate about it.

It's quite another thing to compare that logical jump to the explicitly-stated goal of Thor & Co.

One option ("convince Redcloak to help") has been set up by the comic already. The other option ("multiple unnamed, unknown goblinoid clerics materialize out of nowhere and are convinced to help, despite not having Redcloak's 9th level spell slots") is wild mass guessing. Many, many things need to be assumed in order to get that to work, narratively, and it would still be less satisfying than the "convince Redcloak" plan.

It's totally fair to submit your theory as possible. But it's nowhere near as established as The Order's current goal.

That Redcloak has been presented as a way to seal the Snarl and no alternative yet has is a fact. That it's more satisfying that way is an opinion, and one I don't happen to agree with. I think the most interesting/compelling thing Redcloak can do is refuse to do the right thing, fail because of it, and not be the "hero" who saves the goblins whether or not the goblins do get saved.

[Shining Wrath]

Regarding whether or not Xykon learned anything from this discussion:
In panel #7, he learns that Redcloak is OK with the gods destroying the entire world and every goblin dying. Every goblin dying doesn't bother Xykon a bit, but the implication is that everyone else dies, too. Including Xykon.
And Xykon's single biggest motivation is to live forever, because he knows there's an afterlife, and that the afterlife for evil people is three steps beyond extremely unpleasant. I believe he described it as "avoid the fire down below", although I can't remember which strip it was.
So - Xykon, if he's listening, just learned that Redcloak is willing to kill Xykon and himself to benefit future goblins. The degree to which Xykon is not OK with that is not easily described. At a minimum, his distrust of Redcloak would be doubled or trebled. Possibly, he will not perform his half of the ritual unless he's certain the gods aren't going to pull the plug on him.
Minor nit: "not enough gas in the tank" is not really a phrase a medieval-world dwarf would use. "Food in the pantry" works better.

[RatElemental]

This is a false equivalency.

It's one thing to speculate that many weak Goblinoid clerics could combine to reproduce Redcloak's abilities. I disagree with this assumption, but you can definitely still make it, and we can speculate about it.

It's quite another thing to compare that logical jump to the explicitly-stated goal of Thor & Co.

One option ("convince Redcloak to help") has been set up by the comic already. The other option ("multiple unnamed, unknown goblinoid clerics materialize out of nowhere and are convinced to help, despite not having Redcloak's 9th level spell slots") is wild mass guessing. Many, many things need to be assumed in order to get that to work, narratively, and it would still be less satisfying than the "convince Redcloak" plan.

It's totally fair to submit your theory as possible. But it's nowhere near as established as The Order's current goal.

You're painting the option I present as more unreasonable than it actually is. They don't need to materialize out of nowhere, it's established that the Dark One has a lot of clerics. And there's a whole city full of goblinoids now, including all of the surviving clerics from the invasion force that took it. As for being less satisfying that convincing Redcloak, that also is debatable. It could come down to the heroes contacting Gobbotopia and making an offer, and then you've got a nice contrast between Redcloak and what he's been doing and what the goblin people themselves would choose when given a chance.

[Fish]

I think Redcloak is going to have a come-to-Dark-One moment. Ironically, it's going to be when

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he finds out the Dark One is dead. Dead, or discorporated.

Seriously, did I never realize before that the Dark One wears a red cloak? Can that be the same red cloak that RC wears? (In my copy of Start of Darkness it looks more magenta, but that could be due to the aura glow.)

RC could be a cleric of a cause, not realizing that the god he follows has been dead for a while. Nobody has been communicating with him for a while except possibly Jirix.

[WanderingMist]

I think Redcloak is going to have a come-to-Dark-One moment. Ironically, it's going to be when

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he finds out the Dark One is dead. Dead, or discorporated.

Seriously, did I never realize before that the Dark One wears a red cloak? Can that be the same red cloak that RC wears? (In my copy of Start of Darkness it looks more magenta, but that could be due to the aura glow.)

RC could be a cleric of a cause, not realizing that the god he follows has been dead for a while. Nobody has been communicating with him for a while except possibly Jirix.

But then Thor's Plan would have had no chance of working in the first place. Also, The Dark One still has a lot of worshippers. It's the time between worlds when gods without enough die. Banjo only had Elan and he was in no danger of dying.

[hungrycrow]

But then Thor's Plan would have had no chance of working in the first place. Also, The Dark One still has a lot of worshippers. It's the time between worlds when gods without enough die. Banjo only had Elan and he was in no danger of dying.

It's too nonsensical to be true, but maybe Loki and friends killed TDO and have just been playing Weekend at Bernie's this whole time.

[Doug Lampert]

I don't think Redcloak IS going to have a wake-up call. I think that he's going to get killed by MitD when he finally tries to betray Xykon firing the setup from so long ago, and then he finally meets the Dark One, who was watching this entire exchange, and who tells him to shut up and do the ritual. And I think that he's going to refuse to do it, get mind controlled, and have it done for him.

Because all of this is just to feed REDCLOAK's ego and victim complex. He's just using being the priest of the Dark One as an excuse. HE is the one making the plans, and HE knows better.

The problems will be solved by TOotS, this means that if TDO does something that solves the problems, it will be motivated by the actions of TOotS, not by Durkon saying a few things to try to convince Red Cloak and it actually convincing TDO instead.

To be entirely fair, we know VERY little about the Dark One as a character and therefore it could go very sideways with him. But yes, this is entirely something that could happen--however, given TDO allegedly communicates via feelings within the mantle, you'd think he'd be FEELING his intentions as strongly as he could at Redcloak if he did have a strong opinion on the matter. Again, this is a god whose most direct communication is having someone else pass along "Don't screw this up. No pressure though" which was recently brought up again during the parley. We really know so little about TDO as a person, only the perception various other characters (Redcloak, Jirix, Right Eye, Oona, other gods) have of him. So while it's a possibility, the probability is entirely up in the air. Tho it would be cool to see his part of the Astral.

I largely agree, but I think "up in the air" is a bit too generous. As far as I'm concerned, TDO isn't a character at all. He's a plot device to motivate Red Cloak.

We've NEVER seen him act in comic. He's part of the universe background material. He's shown less agency than the Snarl.

Durkon accidentally convinced TDO while trying to convince Red Cloak is basically an entirely out of left field idea.

[GrayDeath]

Well, that were some heavy hits from Mirah, both figuratively and less so.

And your Idea might have merit, but then, what would the cause be?

Goblinkind would have make him lose spellcasting by now, so....revenge? Proving he is right?

[Wizard_Lizard]

Ok, new favourite character, Oona.

[Riftwolf]

My Headcanon is Redcloak was going to summon a Sodium Elemental and everyone involved seriously dodged a bullet.

[Throknor]

Oh, come on. Being able to bail out of a fight is not trivializing on anywhere near the scale of being able to go wherever you like whenever you like.

If you were fighting in the first place, there was a reason for it (or the writer wasn't doing their job). You had something to win, or something to lose. Noping out of the fight means you don't win and you do lose. Whatever the stakes were, you forfeited them to the villain

In fact, Durkon using Word of Recall would make things harder for the rest of the Order (since that would leave them without clerics for some time), rather than solving their problems in a game-breaking way.

I'd like to throw my support behind these ideas with an in-comic illustration. Contingency as used here is close enough to Word of Recall to make the point that simply escaping a fight might keep you alive but it could leave your allies much worse off. Scarf-guy didn't even reappear until after the fighting was over. May have had to wait until Laurin could retrieve him.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Nah, Myron can teleport to a place he's been. He just had to wait eight hours to memorize the spell.

[The_Weirdo]

Minrah is awesome.

Also, she has to gain at least a few levels from this battle. I mean, Redcloak's a near-epic caster.

Oh, yes: also, Minrah's line of thinking is wonderfully Chaotic and reminds me of:

“The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in that future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present — they are real.” - Lois McMaster Bujold, Shards of Honour.

I can't tell you how much that speaks to me. Mostly because telling might not be kosher.

And Greyview's back! I love Greyview, I really want him to make it out alive!

My Headcanon is Redcloak was going to summon a Sodium Elemental and everyone involved seriously dodged a bullet.

Na...

[JSSheridan]

: I've been listening since 1211, panel 7

[JT]

I have missed Greyview.

Nods head... gets treat?

[Darth Paul]

I agree because...

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(1) MitD eating Redcloak for betraying Xykon, even if it is a magical compulsion, would not be a satisfying moment for MitD, at this point in the story given MitD's character growth so far. It made sense as a threat earlier, given who we believed he was back then. He is becoming his own man, and this looks like backtracking on character growth.

(2) It is unlikely that The Giant would include such an important moment in the story without sufficient Online Comic justification, i.e. revenge for Xykon is to bizarre to understand for someone who has not read the prequel books.

So, while it is still quite possible that the MitD will attempt to eat Redcloak, the most apparent motivation will surely be something that is justified to who the MitD is becoming. In fact, it is highly likely to be a motivation that someone like O-Chul would approve of (even if the tactics may not be very paladin-like).

What are the odds that the big reveal of MitD hinges around

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Xykon ordering him to eat Redcloak as per the old compulsion from Start Of Darkness, MitD deciding that he doesn't really want to, and further deciding that Xykon is the one who deserves to be eaten instead- and putting that plan into action, taking Xykon by surprise for one of the few times in his unlife, and disposing of the Big Bad in a wholly unexpected way? The OotS will still have to deal with the whole End of the Universe problem, but- just imagine.

Not that I think for one moment that it's actually going to break down that way.

[The_Weirdo]

Nods head... gets treat?

It's rather fitting how he's supposedly Neutral Evil and at the same time someone that would be perfectly fine living in Hades. Nod. Get treat.