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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

    1: Venom hasn't been a Spider-Man villain in almost a decade. Technically, the character's been a rival/antiheroic ally of Spider-Man's since the late eighties/early ninties except when he first started out and during the period of time when MacGargon was the host. There was also a five issue Mini-series, set between Flash Thompson losing the symbiote and Eddie reclaiming it, where the host Lee Price was a villainous Venom but he was never intended to be a long term thing.

    Not to mention that, before it was Venom, it was actively trying to help Spider-Man and just didn't know that the way it was doing so was scary and disturbing.

    For the vast majority of Venom's existence in the comics, a period of just slightly over 34 years, Venom has been an (Anti-)hero (reluctantly) allied to Spider-Man.

    Heroic venom is the default.

    Venom is no more a Spider-Man villain than the Punisher is.

    And Carnage isn't a Spider-Man villain.

    Carnage is an ensamble villain. He only appears in team-ups and crossover events, accepting New Avengers when he was killed off to make room for MacGargon's overtly villainous venom.

    Canage's whole thing is that neither Spider-Man nor venom can defeat him on their own so they have to work together or get help from others to take him down.

    He also runs on Slasher-Killer tropes: Every time he turns up, he's harder to put down than he was the last time.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

    ... no i'm gonna agree with Chameleon on this one: he's associated with Spider Man as a Spidey villian. Doesn't matter what he's supposed to BE when he's going to be used as such. As a random experiment I asked a few people at my local comic shop if they knew who Itsy was. None did. But all know Carnage.... thru Spidey.. And I don't see Marvel updating his comics to prevent that.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    ... no i'm gonna agree with Chameleon on this one: he's associated with Spider Man as a Spidey villian. Doesn't matter what he's supposed to BE when he's going to be used as such. As a random experiment I asked a few people at my local comic shop if they knew who Itsy was. None did. But all know Carnage.... thru Spidey.. And I don't see Marvel updating his comics to prevent that.
    If they only think of Carnage as "spider-man villain" then they're a casual fan, not the kind of hardcore fan who memetically reverts character development to make things the way he remembers.

    Carnage is going to continue to have the running theme of "harder to put down and requiring Venom and/or Spidey to team up with other heroes to beat" and if Venom gets reverted to a villain he'll be reverted back to Anti0-Hero a little bit later.

    Becuase those are their status quos. Those are the default.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

    ...Wait, Carnage has been/is an anti-hero? I thouught he was an unrepentant serial killer?

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    If they only think of Carnage as "spider-man villain" then they're a casual fan, not the kind of hardcore fan who memetically reverts character development to make things the way he remembers.

    Carnage is going to continue to have the running theme of "harder to put down and requiring Venom and/or Spidey to team up with other heroes to beat" and if Venom gets reverted to a villain he'll be reverted back to Anti0-Hero a little bit later.

    Becuase those are their status quos. Those are the default.
    The default is how the people see it. And currently, there are MORE casual comic fans than there is hardcore, which means the default IS what those casual fans see. That is the new status quo because its what those, a majority, believe. Again, it may be that if you sat down and read those comics thoroughly you can come away with the conclusion that that belief is incorrect, but until you convert the majority of casuals into hardcore, thus changing the belief, that's simply not true.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    ...Wait, Carnage has been/is an anti-hero? I thouught he was an unrepentant serial killer?
    Venom is the anti-hero. I may have mistyped

    I'm arguing against the idea that they're "just" Spider-Man villains and will inevitably be reverted to such.

    Venom's been an Anti-Hero for the vast majority of his existence in comics.

    Carnage is an ensemble villain(IE, a villain who exclusively fights two or more heroes at a time) who, like Freddy Krueger, Michael Myers, or Jason Vorhees, always comes back and is always harder to put down than he was last time.

    That's the status quo for them.

    Carnage becoming a minor lovecraftian God is on perfectly on-brand and is probably not going to be reverted just so Spider-Man can beat him easily, becuase it's a major, defining part of his character that Spidey and Venom have to team up and/or bring in a bunch of other heroes to beat him.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    \Carnage is an ensemble villain(IE, a villain who exclusively fights two or more heroes at a time) who, like Freddy Krueger, Michael Myers, or Jason Vorhees, always comes back and is always harder to put down than he was last time.

    That's the status quo for them.

    Carnage becoming a minor lovecraftian God is on perfectly on-brand and is probably not going to be reverted just so Spider-Man can beat him easily, becuase it's a major, defining part of his character that Spidey and Venom have to team up and/or bring in a bunch of other heroes to beat him.
    Hrm... I may not have communicated my meaning as well as I'd hoped; as I said, Carnage is a Spidey villain at the end of the day. 'Minor Lovecraftian deity' Carnage is someone against whom Spider-Man is completely helpless, which is not on-brand for Spidey. It may be that Spider-Man always needed help against Carnage, but he was never totally helpless against him; as Spidey's villain, Spider-Man has to be able to contribute meaningfully to the fight.

    King of Hell Carnage (or whatever other goofy thing they've done to make him even edgelordier) is someone that Spider-Man cannot meaningfully interact with, and that's not on-brand for Spider-Man. And no matter how apropos it is for Carnage to get all uber and edgy, at the end of the day, Spider-Man being on-brand is more important for the book.

    Thus my assertion that eventually, Carnage will be de-powered to a level where Spider-Man can once again (with help) beat him.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Venom is the anti-hero. I may have mistyped

    I'm arguing against the idea that they're "just" Spider-Man villains and will inevitably be reverted to such.

    Venom's been an Anti-Hero for the vast majority of his existence in comics.

    Carnage is an ensemble villain(IE, a villain who exclusively fights two or more heroes at a time) who, like Freddy Krueger, Michael Myers, or Jason Vorhees, always comes back and is always harder to put down than he was last time.

    That's the status quo for them.

    Carnage becoming a minor lovecraftian God is on perfectly on-brand and is probably not going to be reverted just so Spider-Man can beat him easily, becuase it's a major, defining part of his character that Spidey and Venom have to team up and/or bring in a bunch of other heroes to beat him.
    They may not be "just" spider-man villains, but they are iconically spider-man villains. If you ask a random dude on the street who Venom is, theyre most likely going to respond that theyre a spider-man bad guy. Its the most well known image of the character.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
    Hrm... I may not have communicated my meaning as well as I'd hoped; as I said, Carnage is a Spidey villain at the end of the day. 'Minor Lovecraftian deity' Carnage is someone against whom Spider-Man is completely helpless, which is not on-brand for Spidey. It may be that Spider-Man always needed help against Carnage, but he was never totally helpless against him; as Spidey's villain, Spider-Man has to be able to contribute meaningfully to the fight.

    King of Hell Carnage (or whatever other goofy thing they've done to make him even edgelordier) is someone that Spider-Man cannot meaningfully interact with, and that's not on-brand for Spider-Man. And no matter how apropos it is for Carnage to get all uber and edgy, at the end of the day, Spider-Man being on-brand is more important for the book.

    Thus my assertion that eventually, Carnage will be de-powered to a level where Spider-Man can once again (with help) beat him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    They may not be "just" spider-man villains, but they are iconically spider-man villains. If you ask a random dude on the street who Venom is, theyre most likely going to respond that theyre a spider-man bad guy. Its the most well known image of the character.
    Exactly these.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    The default is how the people see it. And currently, there are MORE casual comic fans than there is hardcore, which means the default IS what those casual fans see. That is the new status quo because its what those, a majority, believe. Again, it may be that if you sat down and read those comics thoroughly you can come away with the conclusion that that belief is incorrect, but until you convert the majority of casuals into hardcore, thus changing the belief, that's simply not true.
    Quote Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
    Hrm... I may not have communicated my meaning as well as I'd hoped; as I said, Carnage is a Spidey villain at the end of the day. 'Minor Lovecraftian deity' Carnage is someone against whom Spider-Man is completely helpless, which is not on-brand for Spidey. It may be that Spider-Man always needed help against Carnage, but he was never totally helpless against him; as Spidey's villain, Spider-Man has to be able to contribute meaningfully to the fight.

    King of Hell Carnage (or whatever other goofy thing they've done to make him even edgelordier) is someone that Spider-Man cannot meaningfully interact with, and that's not on-brand for Spider-Man. And no matter how apropos it is for Carnage to get all uber and edgy, at the end of the day, Spider-Man being on-brand is more important for the book.

    Thus my assertion that eventually, Carnage will be de-powered to a level where Spider-Man can once again (with help) beat him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    They may not be "just" spider-man villains, but they are iconically spider-man villains. If you ask a random dude on the street who Venom is, theyre most likely going to respond that they're a spider-man bad guy. Its the most well-known image of the character.
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    Exactly these.
    No. I'm sorry, but you're all objectively wrong. That's not how it works with these characters.

    Venom is Iconincally an Anti-Hero. That's what the fans know him as and what he is by default.

    Carnage never been a Spider-Man villain. He was created as an evil(er) counterpart of Venom to give a reason for Spider-Man and Venom to work together, and if anything is a Venom villain. There's almost always either Venom or one of Carnage's siblings(or Carnage's own spawn, Toxin) in the teamups against carnage, and since Venom is also constantly getting stronger it balances out.

    The Marvel comics writers have gone out of their way to make the comics different from the MCU. They're not gonna alienate long term fans by undoing over thirty years of history and, in Venom's case, character development so that Spider-Man can punch them out.

    If that was going to happen, it would have happened to Carnage in the ninties when Spider-Man: The Animated Series was the main introduction to Spider-Man. It didn't, so it won't do it know now that Venom in the mainstream is "has his own movie with no relation to Spider-Man."

    Particularly since Cate's run, with all of the Lovecraftian Elements, is one of the most popular runs of Venom ever.

    The default Venom storyline is "Venom kills a bunch of bastards to protect the innocent from said bastards, like the Punisher but not as serial-killery."

    The default Carnage storyline is "Carnage wants something, either going on a specific kind of rampage for Funzies or else is actively trying to get stronger, probably both. Spider-Man and/or Venom needs all the help they can get, so better assemble a team of C-Listers/Call in he Avengers/The Fantastic For/Where the Hell is the FBI's Anti-Symbiote Task Force."

    What casual fans think of the characters has no bearing on what the Marvel Comics writers are going to do with it.

    Even if Venom or Carnage do get reverted down so Spider-Man can beat them on their own and all of Venom's character development gets ignored for a story... That story will probably be ignored the next time becuase it'll piss off the readers who like those characters.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Venom is Iconincally an Anti-Hero. That's what the fans know him as and what he is by default.
    That's not what iconic means.

    For another comics example, the big dumb stupid "gets angrier as they get madder" Hulk is THE ICONIC HULK even though you could point to a bunch of comics and probably make a strong case that "dumb Hulk" actually appears in a minority of Hulk comics.

    Because that is what people think of when they think of the Hulk.

    And hey, guess what, [/i]that's the version all the adaptations use[/i], just like "villain Venom" is the take almost all of the adaptations use.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    And hey, guess what, [/i]that's the version all the adaptations use[/i], just like "villain Venom" is the take almost all of the adaptations use.
    And adaptions don't affect the source material.

    The Eye of Aggamoto didn't turn into a time machine in the comics becuase the MCU made it the Time Stone. Tony Stark was not retconned to have built Ultron becuase he did it in the movies. Wolverine did not stop smoking and drinking becuase he's been in a bunch of cartoons. Spider-Man didn't stop being an adult becuase every adaption but the Raimi movies insists on doing teen Spider-Man for some reason even though he was in fricking college by his 30th issue.

    Venom isn't going to go back to being a villain after 30 years becuase he's a bad guy in a cartoon. Carnage isn't going to stop being an ensemble villain who is stronger and harder to beat every time he turns up becuase he's gonna be a oneshot villain in Venom's second movie if that ever gets made.
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    That's not what iconic means.

    For another comics example, the big dumb stupid "gets angrier as they get madder" Hulk is THE ICONIC HULK even though you could point to a bunch of comics and probably make a strong case that "dumb Hulk" actually appears in a minority of Hulk comics.

    Because that is what people think of when they think of the Hulk.

    And hey, guess what, [/i]that's the version all the adaptations use[/i], just like "villain Venom" is the take almost all of the adaptations use.
    I'd normally agree with you, you'd go with the Venom from the 90's Spiderman cartoon or the Raimi movies. However, the actual Venom movie from... 2018 (yes, I had to look up the year it came out because I've lost all concept of time) shows him as a clear anti-hero who murders and cannibalizes people but only random villainous mooks and it's mostly played for laughs. For reasons beyond my ken, that movie is set to create a whole universe around itself so I don't think it can be considered a small blip in the character's history.

    Still, he's always been weak to fire and high frequency sound - in every film and television appearance since the 90's Spider-Man cartoon - so it'd be like "Superman got over his Kryptonite weakness in the most recent mega-event" and then having the vast majority of your audience not be confused when the Kryptonite bullets bounce off him or whatever.

    Granted this all depends on Death Battle's evolving outlook on things, so I've no genuine expectations.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

    And ignoring everything else, your argument is "at the end of the day the vast majority of the history of these characters, and thus, the lion's share of their feats and/or explicit powers don't matter becuase casual fans or movies fans who don't read the comics don't know about them."

    Not only is that incredibly fallacious reasoning, that's not how Deathbattles roles. There have been glaring omissions in cases where it's obvious that they're biased, but for the most part they take the character's whole history.
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    And ignoring everything else, your argument is "at the end of the day the vast majority of the history of these characters, and thus, the lion's share of their feats and/or explicit powers don't matter becuase casual fans or movies fans who don't read the comics don't know about them."

    Not only is that incredibly fallacious reasoning, that's not how Deathbattles roles. There have been glaring omissions in cases where it's obvious that they're biased, but for the most part they take the character's whole history.
    I've never understood the reasoning that liking some character more than another character would mean that they'd choose that character to win. What's the incentive?
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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    I've never understood the reasoning that liking some character more than another character would mean that they'd choose that character to win. What's the incentive?
    I don't know.

    But "they like this character more and a fudging things to make them win" is as good an explanation as any for them ignoring that Gaara's top feats top Tophs, not letting Miquel O'Hara have Mjolnir despite the entire original Marvel 2099 series building up to him getting it, Giving Hall Jordon the feats of the entire Green Lantern Corp while Ignoring the Onitrix's safety features and Alien X's utter invulnerability, and breaking their own rules to declare that Superman is infintly powerful and can never, ever be beaten becuase he's the best ever as anything else I've come up with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I don't know.

    But "they like this character more and a fudging things to make them win" is as good an explanation as any for them ignoring that Gaara's top feats top Tophs, not letting Miquel O'Hara have Mjolnir despite the entire original Marvel 2099 series building up to him getting it, Giving Hall Jordon the feats of the entire Green Lantern Corp while Ignoring the Onitrix's safety features and Alien X's utter invulnerability, and breaking their own rules to declare that Superman is infintly powerful and can never, ever be beaten becuase he's the best ever as anything else I've come up with.
    Or picking and choosing links gear from all of his games while giving cloud his most basic set possible. If we are talking iconic for link you have the big shield, the master sword, and maybe the boomerangs and bombs. Thats his "iconic" gear, like cloud has his buster sword. As soon as you open the door to picking and choosing specific gear from across the entire universe of his games, you ruin the justification for not doing the same for cloud.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

    Basically. There are situations where someone was obvioulsy robbed and "they liked the other guy better" is the best explanation I can think of.

    But there are some matchups that, no, do seem fair and reasonable analysis and in those, they tend to take the whole character, not just the "iconic" traits that are common knowledge among casual fans.
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  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    And adaptions don't affect the source material.

    The Eye of Aggamoto didn't turn into a time machine in the comics becuase the MCU made it the Time Stone. Tony Stark was not retconned to have built Ultron becuase he did it in the movies. Wolverine did not stop smoking and drinking becuase he's been in a bunch of cartoons. Spider-Man didn't stop being an adult becuase every adaption but the Raimi movies insists on doing teen Spider-Man for some reason even though he was in fricking college by his 30th issue.

    Venom isn't going to go back to being a villain after 30 years becuase he's a bad guy in a cartoon. Carnage isn't going to stop being an ensemble villain who is stronger and harder to beat every time he turns up becuase he's gonna be a oneshot villain in Venom's second movie if that ever gets made.
    You can be a Spidey villain and still be an anti-hero. That narrative isn't being affected and even casual fans have seen Spidey working with Venom... but they only know of Venom THROUGH Spidey. They only know of Carnage THROUGH Spidey. Without delving any deeper, that's what casuals see. And what they see brands it iconic. Saying otherwise is similar to complaining that Bizarro is still being shown as a Superman villain when HE had a run as an anti-hero. Sure, hardcore fans can dismiss it as WRONG, but the casuals outnumber the hardcore, and what THEY see makes it Iconic.

    Hell, a more recent example is how Apocalypse, the First Mutant, is straight up a good guy in the current run of him. Yet conically, he was depicted as a mega bad guy. Hardcore fans can state "no, no he's a good guy now!" but what the casuals see of him, being all evil and crap from cartoons, movies and comics, makes his status quo A Bad Guy.
    Last edited by HolyDraconus; 2020-09-26 at 11:08 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    not letting Miquel O'Hara have Mjolnir despite the entire original Marvel 2099 series building up to him getting it
    Minor aside, it was Captain America (Steve Rogers) that ended up with Mjolnir, not Miggy, and if I'm remembering right, Mjolnir in that scenario was explicitly a sceptre, not an object of power (it didn't give the powers of Thor at that point), so it's sorta moot anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Giving Hal Jordan the feats of the entire Green Lantern Corp while Ignoring the Omnitrix's safety features and Alien X's utter invulnerability
    Dunno if I agree with Hal Jordan taking that one, but they did address the second two in the actual video- Vilgax was going to steal the Omnitrix by chopping off Ben's arm, which was treated as reasonable by the narrative, and Alien X was shown to be at least inconvenienced by energy blasts in the show, despite his best feats showing that it should be otherwise.

    And I hate to say it, Rater, but my experience as a comics fan for 30+ years tends to indicate against what you're saying. Comics have their sacred status quo, and anything to change that takes some serious doing, and even then, it doesn't stick if the writers or editors decide they like their previous status quo better. One More Day, anyone?

    As specific examples, all the big changes they made in the Crisis on Infinite Earths? Gradually got reverted as the fans that grew up with certain versions of the characters shifted the plotlines back to the way they were before the Crisis. Superman is the last son of Krypton? Nope, there's eight gajillion Kryptonians running around again. Heck, even Krypto is back. Barbara Gordon is crippled and becomes Oracle, as well as a strong symbol of hope for disabled people? Haha, no. Back into the Batgirl costume she goes. Matrix Supergirl? Nope, Kara Zor-El is back.

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    Default Re: Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

    Quote Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
    And I hate to say it, Rater, but my experience as a comics fan for 30+ years tends to indicate against what you're saying. Comics have their sacred status quo, and anything to change that takes some serious doing, and even then, it doesn't stick if the writers or editors decide they like their previous status quo better. One More Day, anyone?
    1: Doesn't apply to Venom and Carnage becuase "Anti-Hero Venom" and "Ensemble Villain Carnage who keeps getting harder to beat" Are the status quo for those characters. There's nothing to every becuase this is who they've always been.

    2: One More Day isn't an good example becuase it was "reverting" Spider-Man to a past that never existed and, regardless, has been in the process of being reversed(it can't be undone without wrecking continuity at this point) since Nick Spencer took over.

    If anything, you should have used that fact to let it be reverted.

    Now, fans wanting things to be how they remember is one thing... But nobody whose never read a Venom comics is going to be allowed to write Venom, and I doubt that no stories that derail Venom's character at the time will be permitted as long as Venom is selling the big bucks. Venom's making money right now. Donny Cate's Venom is one of the best comics that Marvel has right now.

    That and Immortal Hulk, which suggests that MArvel's readership's got a thing for Cosmic Horror in their superheroes, so I don't think "Dark Carnage" is going anywhere for a long time.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Or picking and choosing links gear from all of his games while giving cloud his most basic set possible. If we are talking iconic for link you have the big shield, the master sword, and maybe the boomerangs and bombs. Thats his "iconic" gear, like cloud has his buster sword. As soon as you open the door to picking and choosing specific gear from across the entire universe of his games, you ruin the justification for not doing the same for cloud.
    I think for Cloud, it's more that things like his other equipment doesn't actually canonically exist. The Buster Sword is the sword he uses during the game. Everything else is just numbers and gameplay mechanics.

    Unless you want to do stuff like saying a baseball with a nail sticking in it is more powerful than Nearly any other weapon cloud has in his arsenal? Are you saying that if he had the nail bat he'd have had a better chance against Link?

    The Weapons in FF7 other than the starter gear doesn't actually exist.

    For the purpose of a versus. Stats and leveling don't exist and all the stuff in shops doesn't exist. It's the strength of the characters in the narative. It's why the someone like Drake isn't bullet proof just because he can take shots in the game.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Or picking and choosing links gear from all of his games while giving cloud his most basic set possible. If we are talking iconic for link you have the big shield, the master sword, and maybe the boomerangs and bombs. Thats his "iconic" gear, like cloud has his buster sword. As soon as you open the door to picking and choosing specific gear from across the entire universe of his games, you ruin the justification for not doing the same for cloud.
    Their logic was fair, it just wasn't balanced. They got access to all of their equipment that doesn't directly contradict what they bring into a fighting game (Dissidia and Soul Caliber, respectively). That locks Cloud into his starting sword, but he can have other stuff like ribbons, best armor possible, and so on. But that does leave out the best Materia combos and the like. And while Link loses out on his top level stuff like invincibility, he has access to a lot of support items.

    But I'll agree that they shouldn't have used that logic. Link is canonically a different person in each game (well almost every game). They should have decided which one is the strongest and then just used that one.

    As for Cloud, well that's a bit harder since he's so darn variable. Either take the most optimized build on the internet, or try and figure out a way to translate game logic to reality to figure out how impressive dealing 9999 damage is.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Their logic was fair, it just wasn't balanced. They got access to all of their equipment that doesn't directly contradict what they bring into a fighting game (Dissidia and Soul Caliber, respectively). That locks Cloud into his starting sword, but he can have other stuff like ribbons, best armor possible, and so on. But that does leave out the best Materia combos and the like. And while Link loses out on his top level stuff like invincibility, he has access to a lot of support items.

    But I'll agree that they shouldn't have used that logic. Link is canonically a different person in each game (well almost every game). They should have decided which one is the strongest and then just used that one.

    As for Cloud, well that's a bit harder since he's so darn variable. Either take the most optimized build on the internet, or try and figure out a way to translate game logic to reality to figure out how impressive dealing 9999 damage is.
    I feel the number stuff shouldn't matter. the 9999 damage isn't a thing in game. We know what the characters do in the narrative, and that's what you should be looking at.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    I feel the number stuff shouldn't matter. the 9999 damage isn't a thing in game. We know what the characters do in the narrative, and that's what you should be looking at.
    That's kinda what they did. Which is a lot weaker than what Cloud could be. Like, narratively, Cloud beats Sephiroth after a hard fight. Optimized, Cloud can one-shot Sephiroth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    That's kinda what they did. Which is a lot weaker than what Cloud could be. Like, narratively, Cloud beats Sephiroth after a hard fight. Optimized, Cloud can one-shot Sephiroth.
    Ok I'm not sure you get what I'm saying. Narratively Cloud or Link can both be killed by a single stab from a regular sword. Or a couple of bullets.

    Do you say we ignore that stuff and use game mechanics to cobble together an imaginary version over the actual characters?
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    Default Re: Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Ok I'm not sure you get what I'm saying. Narratively Cloud or Link can both be killed by a single stab from a regular sword. Or a couple of bullets.

    Do you say we ignore that stuff and use game mechanics to cobble together an imaginary version over the actual characters?
    I am saying that their narrative versions are much weaker. By using them they go against the policy of using the characters at their absolute strongest. Using the narrative version of the characters like they did does have Link win.

    Basically people dispute Death Battles results because they took a narrative composite rather than a game one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I am saying that their narrative versions are much weaker. By using them they go against the policy of using the characters at their absolute strongest. Using the narrative version of the characters like they did does have Link win.

    Basically people dispute Death Battles results because they took a narrative composite rather than a game one.
    They cant use the game composite versions though because the gameplay doesnt cross over. Link doesnt even take damage in hit points, he takes damage in hearts. Does he win by default because Cloud cant actually deal heart damage to him?
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    Default Re: Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    They cant use the game composite versions though because the gameplay doesnt cross over. Link doesnt even take damage in hit points, he takes damage in hearts. Does he win by default because Cloud cant actually deal heart damage to him?
    I'm sure they could've figured out something, but yeah, it would've been a pain to do. Final Fantasy does not translate well. No turn based game does, really.

    Overall, I don't actually have a problem with Link vs Cloud, mostly because the Cloud they used was significantly stronger than the Cloud I beat the game with. But I understand why people would be upset that they didn't use the strongest possible Cloud.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    They cant use the game composite versions though because the gameplay doesnt cross over. Link doesnt even take damage in hit points, he takes damage in hearts. Does he win by default because Cloud cant actually deal heart damage to him?
    Most game mechanics don't cross over well. Its why I frown upon it.
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