Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

[HolyDraconus]

I'm not sure I buy that the tactic of de-escalating a fight won't work just because Goku of all people couldn't pull it off.

The same Goku who has Tien... Yamcha... Krillin... Piccolo... Vegeta and now Frieza, if not outright friends, no longer fighting him as enemies??

[Forum Explorer]

The same Goku who has Tien... Yamcha... Krillin... Piccolo... Vegeta and now Frieza, if not outright friends, no longer fighting him as enemies??

To be fair, Goku never descalated the fights with them, he more beat them senseless, and sort of set down the challenge of if you want to do evil, you have to beat him first. And since they can't they just slowly become friends because outside of fighting, Goku is a pretty cheerful and nice guy.

[Traab]

Having genius Hulk out could potentially take the fight in some very odd directions, though. In more recent storylines, while de-Hulked, Banner went in a very techie direction, especially forcefields and the like. So smart Hulk with Bannertech in play? Doubt it would have been enough to tilt the fight with Broly, but it would have added another (and frankly unnecessary) layer to the fight.

Think I tend to fall on the side of 'smart Hulk would have changed things, but probably not enough to matter'.

... although, thinking about it, there's a decent chance that one of the genius Hulks might have decided to see if they couldn't jab Broly with an adrenaline inhibitor or some such to see if they couldn't smack him out of the rage spiral, since... well, that's exactly the sort of thing that Banner was often working on to see if he couldn't de-Hulk himself. Doubt it'd be reliable enough to swing the fight his way consistently, but it is a potential thing, at least.

Thats bat god level of prep to have happen though. By the time he is even thinking of de-escalating, most of the galaxy has exploded anyway. Its not like he has time or opportunity to go build such a device, and less likely one on him at the time would have survived the combat till that point.

[Rynjin]

I'm not sure I buy that the tactic of de-escalating a fight won't work just because Goku of all people couldn't pull it off.

Despite his depiction throughout most of Super, Goku through the majority of the franchise isn't an unsympathetic dumbass. He's a charismatic individual with a real knack for making friends out of enemies, and a habit of showing mercy to the bad guys.

The fact that Goku COMPLETELY struck out bodes ill for the chances of anyone else without similar characterization doing any better; Broly is too far gone to be brought back to reason, is the implication. Which makes sense, because he's basically in Oozaru form by that point ("Wrath state", which he takes on before going full on Legendary Super Saiyan is literally just Oozaru without the full return to monke transformation). Oozaru are so far gone as to kill their loved ones without remorse (as Goku did to Grandpa Gohan and almost did to Bulma and the gang, as well as Master Roshi), and have NEVER been successfully talked down even by people they have a special, deeply emotional connection to. Some rando is never gonna have a chance.

[HolyDraconus]

Despite his depiction throughout most of Super, Goku through the majority of the franchise isn't an unsympathetic dumbass. He's a charismatic individual with a real knack for making friends out of enemies, and a habit of showing mercy to the bad guys.

The fact that Goku COMPLETELY struck out bodes ill for the chances of anyone else without similar characterization doing any better; Broly is too far gone to be brought back to reason, is the implication. Which makes sense, because he's basically in Oozaru form by that point ("Wrath state", which he takes on before going full on Legendary Super Saiyan is literally just Oozaru without the full return to monke transformation). Oozaru are so far gone as to kill their loved ones without remorse (as Goku did to Grandpa Gohan and almost did to Bulma and the gang, as well as Master Roshi), and have NEVER been successfully talked down even by people they have a special, deeply emotional connection to. Some rando is never gonna have a chance.

Eh... they managed to sicc Gohan on Vegeta, so.... Goku just completely failed with Broly...

[Rynjin]

Eh... they managed to sicc Gohan on Vegeta, so.... Goku just completely failed with Broly...

Saying "hey go fight this other guy" is a bit different than "talking them down".

They managed to sic Broly on Frieza in the Super movie too.

[Anteros]

As opposed to... The Hulk, who is consistently despicted as a master diplomat who primarily resolves conflict through dialogue and negotiations?

Smarter versions of the Hulk aren't opposed to dialogue at all. Especially if it gets them some sort of advantage. "Hulk Smash" is just the most famous version.

Despite his depiction throughout most of Super, Goku through the majority of the franchise isn't an unsympathetic dumbass. He's a charismatic individual with a real knack for making friends out of enemies, and a habit of showing mercy to the bad guys.

The fact that Goku COMPLETELY struck out bodes ill for the chances of anyone else without similar characterization doing any better; Broly is too far gone to be brought back to reason, is the implication. Which makes sense, because he's basically in Oozaru form by that point ("Wrath state", which he takes on before going full on Legendary Super Saiyan is literally just Oozaru without the full return to monke transformation). Oozaru are so far gone as to kill their loved ones without remorse (as Goku did to Grandpa Gohan and almost did to Bulma and the gang, as well as Master Roshi), and have NEVER been successfully talked down even by people they have a special, deeply emotional connection to. Some rando is never gonna have a chance.

Like someone else said, Goku doesn't deescalate anything. He beats you up until you can't fight back anymore and then decides that you're friends. Even the Broly movie ended that way.

[Lemmy]

Smarter versions of the Hulk aren't opposed to dialogue at all. Especially if it gets them some sort of advantage. "Hulk Smash" is just the most famous version.

Yeah.... But it's much more of an exception than a rule. Some of the most vicious versions of The Hulk were Banner-mind hulk.

Not to mention "talking them down" is not something likely to occur in a show called "Death Battle".

[BloodSquirrel]

Like someone else said, Goku doesn't deescalate anything. He beats you up until you can't fight back anymore and then decides that you're friends. Even the Broly movie ended that way.

That's not true at all.

• Goku quits fighting both Frieza and Cell once he's decided there's no point to it anymore.
• He straight-up tells Jeice and Burta that they should just leave instead of trying to fight him- twice.
• He tells Vegeta to take Nappa and go home after he uses the kaio-ken to beat Nappa.
• He stops fighting Fat Buu after Trunks has found the Dragon Radar.
• The fight between him and Majin Vegeta ends with Goku talking Vegeta down.

Thing is... Goku doesn't generally wind up in fights with people (unless it's a martial arts tournament or they're training) who aren't already trying to blow up the planet or kill him first. He fights back when he's attacked and shows mercy when his opponents ask for it or can't fight anymore. He's considerably less prone than Marvel/DC characters to starting fights with people because of misunderstandings or minor disagreements.

Really, I can't think of a single instance in the series where Goku either starts or continues to fight somebody when a peaceful resolution is possible.

[Forum Explorer]

That's not true at all.

• Goku quits fighting both Frieza and Cell once he's decided there's no point to it anymore.
• He straight-up tells Jeice and Burta that they should just leave instead of trying to fight him- twice.
• He tells Vegeta to take Nappa and go home after he uses the kaio-ken to beat Nappa.
• He stops fighting Fat Buu after Trunks has found the Dragon Radar.
• The fight between him and Majin Vegeta ends with Goku talking Vegeta down.

Thing is... Goku doesn't generally wind up in fights with people (unless it's a martial arts tournament or they're training) who aren't already trying to blow up the planet or kill him first. He fights back when he's attacked and shows mercy when his opponents ask for it or can't fight anymore. He's considerably less prone than Marvel/DC characters to starting fights with people because of misunderstandings or minor disagreements.

Really, I can't think of a single instance in the series where Goku either starts or continues to fight somebody when a peaceful resolution is possible.

1. For Freeza, Goku had already won, and was at the 'you can't fight back anymore' stage. Cell was more about getting Gohan to the next level than it was any kind of mercy or attempt to get Cell to back down.
2. They were too weak to even give him a challenge. Also he failed to get them to go away until after he mangled Burter. He hardly talked them down, though I'll concede he tried.
3. I wouldn't even count that as an attempt to talk Vegeta down, as that was more an ultimatium. Either way, it failed.
4. Is that where he showcases SS3? I thought he more was running out of time and couldn't finish the fight. I don't really know a lot about that arc.
5. After you know, Vegeta fought and beat him. And basically had released Buu. Again, more or less a failure.

The point is that he never succeeds in preventing a fight in the first place. I'll concede he does try now and than, but talking people down from a confrontation isn't really a skill of his.

[BloodSquirrel]

1. For Freeza, Goku had already won, and was at the 'you can't fight back anymore' stage. Cell was more about getting Gohan to the next level than it was any kind of mercy or attempt to get Cell to back down.
2. They were too weak to even give him a challenge. Also he failed to get them to go away until after he mangled Burter. He hardly talked them down, though I'll concede he tried.
3. I wouldn't even count that as an attempt to talk Vegeta down, as that was more an ultimatium. Either way, it failed.
4. Is that where he showcases SS3? I thought he more was running out of time and couldn't finish the fight. I don't really know a lot about that arc.
5. After you know, Vegeta fought and beat him. And basically had released Buu. Again, more or less a failure.

The point is that he never succeeds in preventing a fight in the first place. I'll concede he does try now and than, but talking people down from a confrontation isn't really a skill of his.

First off, half of that is inaccurate. Vegeta hadn't beaten Goku, and Goku didn't realize yet that SSJ3 was draining him that way. He also stopped fighting Cell because he couldn't win.

Second, you're adding in so many qualifiers as to make the claim meaningless. You're basically reduced to "Goku never de-escalates the situation when someone is 100% intent on fighting him no matter what he does and they're too strong for him to intimidate into giving up".

I mean... seriously... you're going call "Hey, if you try to kill everybody on my planet, I'm going to fight you?" an ultimatum? Why, exactly, does it not count as de-escalating a situation when winning the fight outright would have been faster and easier? If he'd talked down Broly, what would the excuse have been? That it doesn't count because Goku was only doing it because he couldn't win?

Please, give me the counter-example. Tell me a point in the series where Goku kept fighting somebody as soon as there was an option not to that didn't involve him or other innocent people dying.

[Forum Explorer]

First off, half of that is inaccurate. Vegeta hadn't beaten Goku, and Goku didn't realize yet that SSJ3 was draining him that way. He also stopped fighting Cell because he couldn't win.

Second, you're adding in so many qualifiers as to make the claim meaningless. You're basically reduced to "Goku never de-escalates the situation when someone is 100% intent on fighting him no matter what he does and they're too strong for him to intimidate into giving up".

I mean... seriously... you're going call "Hey, if you try to kill everybody on my planet, I'm going to fight you?" an ultimatum? Why, exactly, does it not count as de-escalating a situation when winning the fight outright would have been faster and easier? If he'd talked down Broly, what would the excuse have been? That it doesn't count because Goku was only doing it because he couldn't win?

Please, give me the counter-example. Tell me a point in the series where Goku kept fighting somebody as soon as there was an option not to that didn't involve him or other innocent people dying.

Why would I give a counter example like that? I'm not trying to prove that Goku is a fight maniac who only cares about fighting. I'm trying to prove that talking people down isn't a skill of his. That he didn't befriend Picollo, Vegeta, et al, via diplomacy. He did it by being a better fighter than them, stopping their evil plans, and than sparing them. Than usually the people around him actually befriend them. Gohan for Picollo, Bulma for Vegeta, and Krillan for Android 18.

Sure, it's not his fault that the people he's talking to are 100% unreasonable. It's the setting he is in. But that doesn't give any evidence to his ability to actually talk people down. Here's an example of someone actually talking someone down. Mr. Satan and Buu. Without any violence, threats, or even ability to hurt Buu, Mr. Satan successfully got Fat Buu to no longer want to hurt anyone. If Fat Buu had beaten his evil side, that would've been it. Victory for Mr. Satan via diplomacy.

Yes, stop hurting people or I'll hurt you, is an ultimatum. It's a perfectly reasonable ultimatum to have, but it is still an ultimatum and a threat.

Because the original claim was that because Goku couldn't talk down Broly, the Hulk wouldn't be able to. Which you know, isn't wrong. But I'm quibbling with the idea that Goku is good at talking down people at all. The Hulk may be even worse than Goku at talking people down, but that doesn't mean Goku is good at it.

Like I said, the Buu saga is the one I know the least about, so if I got some details wrong there, you'll have to excuse me. As for Cell, I'm confident in saying that Goku wouldn't have given up if he didn't think Gohan would win. Like, he couldn't beat Vegeta on his own either, but he didn't stop fighting until he was literally paralyzed. In comparison, Goku was winded sure, but hadn't taken any significant damage.

[Rater202]

You're getting your arcs confused.

Goku forfeited against Cell to let Gohan fight, not only becuase he was confident that Gohan could win(and didn't realize that Gohan doesn't like fighting) but also becuase he wasn't strong enough to defeat Cell.

Goku came out of the chamber, sized up Cell, and realized that he still wasn't strong enough to beat Cell.

Goku gave it his all and surrender when it was clear to him that he couldn't beat Cell.

Goku wanted Gohan to step up and achieve his potential, but if he could have beaten Cell on his own he would have done it.

With Buu, Goku claims that his super Saiyan 3 form could have destroyed Buu(though he rephrases this later on after fighting Buu's other forms, though see below) but that he didn't do it becuase "I'm dead and I can only come back for one day every... This is probably the last time any of you will ever see me until you guys die permanently yourselves. You can't depend on me to solve problems anymore. Besides, Goten and Trunks are both strong enough that if they fuse together and train a little bit they should add up to about enough to kill Buu."

Which ends up going nowhere, but there are rumors that that was becuase of editorial interference.

And it does make a little bit of sense that Goku could have maybe defeated Buu if you understand context:

The fight between Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Majin Vegeta(whose corruption drew out his latent potential and pushed him up to SSj2 himself) was written and published before Super Saiyan 3 was conceptualized, so Goku and Vegeta were entered to be exactly equal in power there.

It was only afterward that "no, Goku has an even stronger form up his leave" was conceptualized.

Vegeta as Super Saiyan 2 was almost strong enough, after sacrificing every scrap of ki, stamina, and life he had in a blast so powerful that it burned himself to ashes, to destroy Buu. He was just slightly below the threshold needed to completly obliterate Buu's molecules which allowed Buu to reform.

According to the Daishenzu, Super Saiyan 3 is four times as powerful as Super Saiyan 2, so if Goku and Vegeta are perfectly equal in SSJ2, then Goku as SSj3 should have been powerful enough to destroy Buu utterly, though it probably would have eaten up all the time he had left on Earth--he was given enough life-force manifest in the mortal world for 24 hours, and the massive energy drain of Super Saiyan 3 went past his normal reserves of ki and stamina and ate up most of that.

Of course, after seeing Super Buu and Kid Buu, he's not so sure anymore...

But we're not actually sure what the hierarchy of power for Buu's forms is.

All we know for sure is that Mr. Buu, the representation of Buu's goodness and the influence of the Grand Supreme Kai on Buu's personality that was extracted from Super Buu by Vegeta(reverting Super Buu to Kid/Pure Buu) is probably the weakest form, unless Mr. Buu and "Good Buu" (What was left after Fat Buu expelled all of his evil) are separate incarnations, in which case "Good" Buu is the weakest.

Depending on whether you count Uub, Kid Buu's reincarnation, as a form of Buu or not, the strongest form of Buu is either Uub* or Super Buu after absorbing Gohan.

OG Fat Buu is said to have gotten weaker from his "Ridiculously Buff Kid Buu" form gotten from absorbing South Supreme Kai due to the Grand Supreme Kai's goodness and gentle nature counteracting Buu's inherent malice and destructive power, but it isn't clarified if he's weaker than than his buff form or weaker than his base form.

A point of confusion: When Kid Buu first manifests in the modern an after Vegeta rips out Super Buu's goodness, Vegeta claims that Buu's power level is rising during the transformation while it is later said that the absorptions they thought were making him a greater threat were actually holding him back.

Out of context, it makes it sound like Kid Buu s the strongest form, and absorptions, in general, make him weaker, but it's only Absorbing Grand Supreme Kai that made him weaker. Immediately after the transformation to kid Buu is done, Vegeta comments that after all of that Kid Buu is weaker is a wimp in comparison to his previous forms(so the power level increase was a spike in output, not an actual power increase) and it's clarified that it's the fact that he can think making him concerned for his own mortality and concerning power that makes the forms gained by absorption less dangerous than Kid Buu: Kid Buu is barely sapient, completly feral, and his only instinct is to destroy, allowing him to take full advantage of his night invulnerability and limitless stamina as he has no concern for his own well being.

(Now that I think about it, Buu's pure form could be read as a dark mirror of Ultra Instinct, where one enters a state where all other concerns but fighting perfectly fade away and one's instincts become honed solely for fighting)

*In End of Z, Goku is certain that Uub is the only one left who can possibly challenge him, while the so-far Manga exclusive planet Eater Moro Arc has Grand Supreme Kai manifest within Kid Buu and reveal that for unknown reasons the Kid Buu retained his divinity, so, when the vast majority of his godly power reincorporated after having been sacrificed millennia earlier to defeat Moro, it went to Uub who had already contained Kid Buu's raw power. Either way, Uub as a barely trained malnirished child was strong enough to match a seriously fighting(albeit untranformed) Goku as an equal.

[BloodSquirrel]

Why would I give a counter example like that? I'm not trying to prove that Goku is a fight maniac who only cares about fighting. I'm trying to prove that talking people down isn't a skill of his.

First off, if that's the claim you're making, then you shouldn't confuse it by defending claims like "Goku never de-escalates anything".

Second, if you're trying to prove something, then you should provide some evidence for it. Goku has talked people down before, made friends with them, and is generally shown to be an easy person to get along with. There's been plenty of evidence that Goku isn't bad at this presented. Where's your evidence that he isn't?

That he didn't befriend Picollo, Vegeta, et al, via diplomacy. He did it by being a better fighter than them, stopping their evil plans, and than sparing them. Than usually the people around him actually befriend them. Gohan for Picollo, Bulma for Vegeta, and Krillan for Android 18.

Beating up somebody and then not killing them doesn't automatically turn them into your friend. Goku was able to make friends with those people because he did things like forgive them for trying to kill him, offer them help when he had the chance, and not let it bother him when they were rude or antagonistic toward them. Vegeta was not exactly nice to Goku during the Frieza and Cell sagas. Goku being much better at letting that kind of stuff roll off of him is why they eventually became friends.

Sure, it's not his fault that the people he's talking to are 100% unreasonable.

Then it really shouldn't reflect on how good he is at talking people down then, now should it? You're back to mixing your claims here, are you arguing that he's not good at it, or that it never happened? You're trying to have it both ways.

Here's an example of someone actually talking someone down. Mr. Satan and Buu. Without any violence, threats, or even ability to hurt Buu, Mr. Satan successfully got Fat Buu to no longer want to hurt anyone. If Fat Buu had beaten his evil side, that would've been it. Victory for Mr. Satan via diplomacy.

Mr. Satan tried to kill him multiple times, it was just so ineffective that Buu didn't even notice. He succeeded almost entirely by accident. Not exactly a shining example of diplomacy.

Yes, stop hurting people or I'll hurt you, is an ultimatum. It's a perfectly reasonable ultimatum to have, but it is still an ultimatum and a threat.

You realize that by defining it that broadly, you're making it completely empty as a rebuttal, right? You could pick pretty much any act of diplomacy and find "ultimatums' like that in it. It does nothing to prove your point.

As for Cell, I'm confident in saying that Goku wouldn't have given up if he didn't think Gohan would win. Like, he couldn't beat Vegeta on his own either, but he didn't stop fighting until he was literally paralyzed. In comparison, Goku was winded sure, but hadn't taken any significant damage.

Of course he wouldn't have given up if he'd had no other option- Cell would have destroyed the world. The point is that when Goku does have other options, he takes them.

[Rynjin]

To be fair, Goku never descalated the fights with them, he more beat them senseless, and sort of set down the challenge of if you want to do evil, you have to beat him first. And since they can't they just slowly become friends because outside of fighting, Goku is a pretty cheerful and nice guy.

This was not the case for either Yamcha or Tien, BTW. Yamcha was trying to con them after their initial tussles (one of which Yamcha won) and just slowly came to realize that Goku's a good kid (and Bulma's hot...) and stopped being bad.

Tien was going through an existential crisis because of the chats he'd had with "Jackie Chun" and Goku both in and out of the arena; by the time he and Goku actually fought in the tournament he was wavering, and could have won much more handily (remember, Tien WON that tournament) if he hadn't decided to forsake his master (and his anything goes, ruthlessness is king, feelings are for wimps combat style) mid-combat.

King Piccolo and his minions are the only people in the franchise he never tries to show any mercy or compassion to; he was on the warpath after Tambourine killed Krillin, and King Piccolo killing Roshi and Chiaotzu didn't do much to endear him either. His response to basically every word King Piccolo utters in his presence is "**** you, die", and then he follows through on it.

[Forum Explorer]

First off, if that's the claim you're making, then you shouldn't confuse it by defending claims like "Goku never de-escalates anything".

Second, if you're trying to prove something, then you should provide some evidence for it. Goku has talked people down before, made friends with them, and is generally shown to be an easy person to get along with. There's been plenty of evidence that Goku isn't bad at this presented. Where's your evidence that he isn't?



Beating up somebody and then not killing them doesn't automatically turn them into your friend. Goku was able to make friends with those people because he did things like forgive them for trying to kill him, offer them help when he had the chance, and not let it bother him when they were rude or antagonistic toward them. Vegeta was not exactly nice to Goku during the Frieza and Cell sagas. Goku being much better at letting that kind of stuff roll off of him is why they eventually became friends.



Then it really shouldn't reflect on how good he is at talking people down then, now should it? You're back to mixing your claims here, are you arguing that he's not good at it, or that it never happened? You're trying to have it both ways.



Mr. Satan tried to kill him multiple times, it was just so ineffective that Buu didn't even notice. He succeeded almost entirely by accident. Not exactly a shining example of diplomacy.



You realize that by defining it that broadly, you're making it completely empty as a rebuttal, right? You could pick pretty much any act of diplomacy and find "ultimatums' like that in it. It does nothing to prove your point.



Of course he wouldn't have given up if he'd had no other option- Cell would have destroyed the world. The point is that when Goku does have other options, he takes them.

Really? Can you provide a case where there was someone who wanted to attack Goku, and without any violence or threats, Goku got them to stop attacking? Cause the only time I can think of that is way back in Dragonball when Goku befriended a Red Ribbon Android that didn't want to fight in the first place.

Because otherwise, I point to pretty much the entire main cast of Dragonball. Goku fought pretty much all of them and only became friends with them after beating them in a fight. As far as I'm concerned you've provided no evidence that Goku isn't bad at talking people down as in none of the examples you give, he actually talks someone down.


Sure, that helps with their redemption and everything. I think I mentioned that in an earlier post. But I never feel like Goku is the decisive person in redeeming others. He gets a lot of credit for stopping them in the first place and just being a good guy in general, but I feel like the person that the villain starts being good for isn't Goku. Not that it is particularly relevant to this conversation, afterall, that only matters after Goku has already beaten them in a fight.


On the contrary, if he had ever successfully talked one of them down, that'd be pretty good evidence that Goku is good at talking people down. The fact that he doesn't either means he's bad at it, or there is no evidence that he is good at it. Though really, I'd say the example with Burter and Jeice is a good example of him being bad at it. Even when he totally outclasses his opponents, he needed to knock one unconscious in order to end the fight.


Maybe not the best example, but I can't think of anyone who even tries. Dragonball Z is not a setting that is conductive to diplomacy. Maybe Krillan and the Androids, but I don't have a good memory of that scene. DBZ abridged has completely taken it over. Anyways, Buu's failure to notice said murder attempts is why force was not a factor in Satan's success in getting Buu to stand down.


I'm not defining it broadly, I'm going by it's literal definition: 'a final proposition, condition, or demand especially : one whose rejection will end negotiations and cause a resort to force or other direct action'

Saying take your friend and leave or I'll attack you is almost a perfect exact example of what an ultimatum is.


I don't see how having Gohan fight Cell in his stead in any way proves Goku's ability to talk people down. Or even descaltes the situation if you want to use that metric. It does prove he isn't a senseless battle maniac, but again, that's not what this conversation is about.