Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

[HolyDraconus]

They're explicitly using Archie Sonic. Which means they're not using anything videogame related. And comic Sonic has survived universal erasion in his Super form.

I know they are using Archie Sonic. But this is death battle. That sort of thing is precisely the muck they would use. Nevermind the fact that Sonic doesn't need rings to change and literally fought Deities," he can be crushed in the games and since Archie Sonic is Prime Sonic then he can too". Im sure is the logic they can use. And he survived multiversal erasion. The Super Genesis Wave hit everything.

[Devonix]

I know they are using Archie Sonic. But this is death battle. That sort of thing is precisely the muck they would use. Nevermind the fact that Sonic doesn't need rings to change and literally fought Deities," he can be crushed in the games and since Archie Sonic is Prime Sonic then he can too". Im sure is the logic they can use. And he survived multiversal erasion. The Super Genesis Wave hit everything.

When they say they're only using things from a specific version they pretty much always stick to it. BTW they're probably going to be showing clips from games, or from the Satam Show. But remember those are just clips for giving something to show in the episode, and have nothing to do with the analysis.

Same for showing stuff from cartoons when they're talking about a comic book character. The cartoon clips have nothing to do with the analysis.

[HolyDraconus]

When they say they're only using things from a specific version they pretty much always stick to it. BTW they're probably going to be showing clips from games, or from the Satam Show. But remember those are just clips for giving something to show in the episode, and have nothing to do with the analysis.

Same for showing stuff from cartoons when they're talking about a comic book character. The cartoon clips have nothing to do with the analysis.

i wont hold my breath.

[HolyDraconus]

Happy Holidays already? Well lets get this started.

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Sonic lost. He was Ben Ten'd. When you can literally bend reality to your whims, how do you lose? By not being a DC character, seems to be the recurring answer. Speed not even being relevant is the only thing i can concede to them here. Otherwise, ouch. The flames in the comment section will being brutal.

Next time was spoiled months ago, but in the interest of those that missed it

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Red Hood v Winter Soldier

[Traab]

Ok watched it

Spoiler: This time

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Meh, it was a battle of the infinity +1 characters. You could probably have gone the other way and used the exact same justification.

[SKarious]

Welp. That wa sa pile of brain-melting bu****it. I don't think anything matters with such broken characters, and comics are more ridiculous now to me than ever before.
At least the next battle could prove interesting. It'll be in live-action, right?

[hungrycrow]

I like that they were suspicious of sonic's ludicrously high toughness feat.

[HolyDraconus]

I like that they were suspicious of sonic's ludicrously high toughness feat.

He was blessed by, and consistently fights, reality warping deities. Why so suspicious?

[Traab]

He was blessed by, and consistently fights, reality warping deities. Why so suspicious?

Hes a hedgehog, duh.

[hungrycrow]

He was blessed by, and consistently fights, reality warping deities. Why so suspicious?

He also regularly gets hurt by normal dudes. It didn't matter much this fight since sonic has his super modes and flash can do crazy speed force things. But i feel like always using the maximum stat a character ever displays ends up skewing the characters so much they look nothing like their normal depictions.

[Traab]

He also regularly gets hurt by normal dudes. It didn't matter much this fight since sonic has his super modes and flash can do crazy speed force things. But i feel like always using the maximum stat a character ever displays ends up skewing the characters so much they look nothing like their normal depictions.

I agree with you to an extent but that opens the door to problems deciding "What is normal"? The strongest feats at least tends to give an objective rating that most can agree on "Yeah that character did that once" Of course the argument then is what that feat MEANS number wise.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: This Time

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Flash wins.

Okay. I don't really care. Can we just stop using overpowered DC characters please? I'm tired of the absolute constant BS that goes on in the DC Universe.

[Kitten Champion]

He also regularly gets hurt by normal dudes. It didn't matter much this fight since sonic has his super modes and flash can do crazy speed force things. But i feel like always using the maximum stat a character ever displays ends up skewing the characters so much they look nothing like their normal depictions.

This was my big-honkin'-issue with the Optimus Prime v. Granddaddy Gundam fight, which was the last one of these I watched. It was watching two - dubiously devised - statistical blocks that they put Optimus Prime and RX-78-2 skins on. That, as a result, neither matched your in-built expectations of either Gen-1 Transformers or Mobile Suit Gundam action scenes and felt more like a Newgrounds Flash animator's pet project that happened to use those characters' sprites.

It's not even about who wins or loses - I'm willing to accept their justification for that - but rather the basic concept of wanting to see characters you like fight and interact in a way that would never happen within canon and/or with the IP holders being unrelated entities.

[Anteros]

This was my big-honkin'-issue with the Optimus Prime v. Granddaddy Gundam fight, which was the last one of these I watched. It was watching two - dubiously devised - statistical blocks that they put Optimus Prime and RX-78-2 skins on. That, as a result, neither matched you're in-built expectations of either Gen-1 Transformers or Mobile Suit Gundam action scenes and felt more like a Newgrounds Flash animator's pet project that happened to use those characters' sprites.

It's not even about who wins or loses - I'm willing to accept their justification for that - but rather the basic concept of wanting to see characters you like fight and interact in a way that would never happen within canon and/or with the IP holders being unrelated entities.

Yeah, I'm a big believer that characters should be depicted in their most usual way, and if that misses out on some extreme feats that they can't normally accomplish so be it.

[Rynjin]

I think for long running series/characters most things could be fixed by choosing an "era".

If the Flash, as an example, was nailed down to a consistent depiction that could actually change if they ever came back, it would make things more interesting I think.

Who wins in a fight: Archie Sonic or the Flash as depicted in the canon of '92-'00? Then it becomes a lot easier to pull consistent feats instead of maximum cheese achievements pulled from a hodgepodge of stories written by over a dozen different writers spanning 80 years.

[Forum Explorer]

This was my big-honkin'-issue with the Optimus Prime v. Granddaddy Gundam fight, which was the last one of these I watched. It was watching two - dubiously devised - statistical blocks that they put Optimus Prime and RX-78-2 skins on. That, as a result, neither matched your in-built expectations of either Gen-1 Transformers or Mobile Suit Gundam action scenes and felt more like a Newgrounds Flash animator's pet project that happened to use those characters' sprites.

It's not even about who wins or loses - I'm willing to accept their justification for that - but rather the basic concept of wanting to see characters you like fight and interact in a way that would never happen within canon and/or with the IP holders being unrelated entities.

Speaking of that, I've got that problem with some other fights, like Obi-Wan vs Kakashi. Just because you turn off any pacifism they might have doesn't mean you should also switch up their fighting style, or how they use their abilities.

[TeChameleon]

I agree with you to an extent but that opens the door to problems deciding "What is normal"? The strongest feats at least tends to give an objective rating that most can agree on "Yeah that character did that once" Of course the argument then is what that feat MEANS number wise.

I'd tend to agree with that- going all-peak-feats can produce some wonky results, but at the same time, where do you put the peak feats if you don't use them as the baseline? Just because a character doesn't do it all the time, doesn't mean they can't do it, because they've done it in the past. So, well...

As far as Sonic vs. the Flash...

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It was a bit weird that they applied the transitive 'Barry came back from dissociated molecules' thing to Wally when I always thought that was a thing that was sort of Barry's gig, one of the only things that he clearly had over Wally. Oddly enough, it was actually referred to surprisingly often in the early days of Wally's run as the Flash, that 'Barry had total control over his molecules' and heavily implied that it was something that Wally couldn't do. But at the same time... it turned out to be totally irrelevant. They pointed out that Wally's phased through reality-warping energy blasts before, rendering that whole line of argument completely moot.

Other than that, yeh, no real surprises there, to be honest. Wally West Flash is absurdly broken. What amounts to total mastery over kinetic force, relatively casual dimension-hopping, limited precognition, and time travel? Almost any one of those things could make you a borderline god, and all of them? Yeah, not even Sonic the 'I have more super modes than I have fingers' Hedgehog is going to be able to handle that.

... frankly could've saved some time by just saying 'Speed Force more OP than Chaos Force'

EDIT

Speaking of that, I've got that problem with some other fights, like Obi-Wan vs Kakashi. Just because you turn off any pacifism they might have doesn't mean you should also switch up their fighting style, or how they use their abilities.

Thing is, what happens when that pacifism heavily informs their fighting style/ability use? I mean, if, say, Jaime Reyes Blue Beetle has his no-kill rule turned off, things are going to be very, very different when he goes up against you, given that the Scarab appears to pack weaponry with 'possible theological implications' that Jaime simply refuses to use. Fights are gonna go a little differently when the Blue Beetle uses his 'render three square blocks into their constituent gluons ray' rather than just trying to deck his opponent.

[HolyDraconus]

I'd tend to agree with that- going all-peak-feats can produce some wonky results, but at the same time, where do you put the peak feats if you don't use them as the baseline? Just because a character doesn't do it all the time, doesn't mean they can't do it, because they've done it in the past. So, well...

As far as Sonic vs. the Flash...

Spoiler

Show

It was a bit weird that they applied the transitive 'Barry came back from dissociated molecules' thing to Wally when I always thought that was a thing that was sort of Barry's gig, one of the only things that he clearly had over Wally. Oddly enough, it was actually referred to surprisingly often in the early days of Wally's run as the Flash, that 'Barry had total control over his molecules' and heavily implied that it was something that Wally couldn't do. But at the same time... it turned out to be totally irrelevant. They pointed out that Wally's phased through reality-warping energy blasts before, rendering that whole line of argument completely moot.

Other than that, yeh, no real surprises there, to be honest. Wally West Flash is absurdly broken. What amounts to total mastery over kinetic force, relatively casual dimension-hopping, limited precognition, and time travel? Almost any one of those things could make you a borderline god, and all of them? Yeah, not even Sonic the 'I have more super modes than I have fingers' Hedgehog is going to be able to handle that.

... frankly could've saved some time by just saying 'Speed Force more OP than Chaos Force'

EDIT


Thing is, what happens when that pacifism heavily informs their fighting style/ability use? I mean, if, say, Jaime Reyes Blue Beetle has his no-kill rule turned off, things are going to be very, very different when he goes up against you, given that the Scarab appears to pack weaponry with 'possible theological implications' that Jaime simply refuses to use. Fights are gonna go a little differently when the Blue Beetle uses his 'render three square blocks into their constituent gluons ray' rather than just trying to deck his opponent.

The issue though is

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Sonic had two MAJOR things going for him. He can change matter to whatever he wishes, which should of been a game ender, cause regardless of how much control you have over your molecules it won't matter when they stop being molecules, and reality literally bends to make him win. They glossed over both and never gave a plausible reason as to what Wally had to overcome it. Chaos Control is a blast. His wish powers aren't. They are just a stated effect of reality. But as i stated earlier, they Ben Ten'd Sonic, by once again, in the animation, time travel to before the conflict became unwinnable and win. The difference is that at least here they had a plausible argument for the non DC character to lose (composite vs single source, and ignoring that the single source literally should be composite since its canonly is). But eh. Lets see how they make a super soldier lose to a failed Robin next time.

. I think on that second point that if a character's personality has to undergo that much of a change they shouldn't be in it. Obi v Kakashi shouldn't have happened, for example, cause a no limits Obi is a Dark Side Obi, who's a wildly different person.

[Kitten Champion]

Obi-Wan Kenobi isn't a pacifist. Pacifists don't regularly kill sentient beings with laser swords. He's reserved and uses violence in a manner consistent with his Order, but he's more Knight Templar than ascetic monk.

Regardless, just because it's a Death Battle doesn't mean a character vanishes entirely. I would use the example of Harry Potter and Avada Kedavra, a spell he literally cannot use canonically because it requires a specific intent and disposition that he lacks. Saying "a Potterverse Wizard can use the Killing Curse and this is Death Battle so he's locked into homicidal mode" tells me you never really wanted to use that character with his nature and limitations and merely have him because Potterverse Wizard v. [Insert Opponent Here] isn't alluring enough.

[Forum Explorer]

Thing is, what happens when that pacifism heavily informs their fighting style/ability use? I mean, if, say, Jaime Reyes Blue Beetle has his no-kill rule turned off, things are going to be very, very different when he goes up against you, given that the Scarab appears to pack weaponry with 'possible theological implications' that Jaime simply refuses to use. Fights are gonna go a little differently when the Blue Beetle uses his 'render three square blocks into their constituent gluons ray' rather than just trying to deck his opponent.

He would likely still try and punch you, just out of sheer habit, if nothing else. Oh, he might pull out those weapons eventually, but it just likely wouldn't be his first resort when he's never used that weapon before. If nothing else, he wouldn't be very skilled with those weapons in comparison to punching people.

But that's also kinda my point. The Jedi are the best example of this. They have a ton of potential powers that they typically don't use, because they typically don't want to kill their opponent. They are perfectly willing to kill mind you, but restrain themselves to not fall to the Dark Side. Removing their compunctions against killing won't suddenly make Obi-Wan an aggressive fighter who throws power around like a brute. He'd still be all about taking defensive careful actions and trying to win by countering their opponent.

Basically, removing their pacifism doesn't mean removing their personality. And if their personality makes them less effective at killing, then so be it.

[Traab]

So uhhh THIS is a thing I guess?

[TeChameleon]

He would likely still try and punch you, just out of sheer habit, if nothing else. Oh, he might pull out those weapons eventually, but it just likely wouldn't be his first resort when he's never used that weapon before. If nothing else, he wouldn't be very skilled with those weapons in comparison to punching people.

But that's also kinda my point. The Jedi are the best example of this. They have a ton of potential powers that they typically don't use, because they typically don't want to kill their opponent. They are perfectly willing to kill mind you, but restrain themselves to not fall to the Dark Side. Removing their compunctions against killing won't suddenly make Obi-Wan an aggressive fighter who throws power around like a brute. He'd still be all about taking defensive careful actions and trying to win by countering their opponent.

Basically, removing their pacifism doesn't mean removing their personality. And if their personality makes them less effective at killing, then so be it.

Okay, I kind of get where you coming from, although I'm not sure I agree 100%- being in a Death Battle means that the character is automatically going to be a bit more aggressive than normal. That being said, yeah, their personality should be intact if DB wants anyone to care about the fight.

[Rater202]

Okay, I kind of get where you coming from, although I'm not sure I agree 100%- being in a Death Battle means that the character is automatically going to be a bit more aggressive than normal. That being said, yeah, their personality should be intact if DB wants anyone to care about the fight.

They're inconsistent about it though.

They say that every character is a version who has no qualms about killing and is actively going in for the kill.

If Goku actually thought someone needed to die, he would be behaving much differently from him wanting to fight for fun.

More blatantly, the All Might vs Might Guy battle wasn't even a fight. They just both got way to freaking into an arm wrestling competition.

[Anteros]

To he honest, I just want an interesting fight between characters I like that's fun to watch. I could do without the whole "this is who would win if they were bloodlusted and possessed by Satan and so completely out of character they're unrecognizable."

The fun part is watching the fight and talking with others about it. I don't actually need to see the 9 year old Pokemon trainer brutally eviscerated in murder gore to enjoy myself. You ******* weirdos.

[HolyDraconus]

To he honest, I just want an interesting fight between characters I like that's fun to watch. I could do without the whole "this is who would win if they were bloodlusted and possessed by Satan and so completely out of character they're unrecognizable."

The fun part is watching the fight and talking with others about it. I don't actually need to see the 9 year old Pokemon trainer brutally eviscerated in murder gore to enjoy myself. You ******* weirdos.

Lol eh, Ash got beat down by Misty and Tai is a literal adult that is active playing soccer. That fist fight can only go one way.

[Kitten Champion]

Lol eh, Ash got beat down by Misty and Tai is a literal adult that is active playing soccer. That fist fight can only go one way.

Eh, Ash has essentially hiked across several continents at this point. He isn't even allowed a bike.

Sure, he's eternally 10 so that's a pretty big physical disadvantage there, but let's not suggest he isn't freakishly robust.

[Dragonus45]

Eh, Ash has essentially hiked across several continents at this point. He isn't even allowed a bike.

Sure, he's eternally 10 so that's a pretty big physical disadvantage there, but let's not suggest he isn't freakishly robust.

Don't forget the canon weight of various pokemon he has hauled around over the years, sometimes one handed. Dude is ripped.

[HolyDraconus]

Eh, Ash has essentially hiked across several continents at this point. He isn't even allowed a bike.

Sure, he's eternally 10 so that's a pretty big physical disadvantage there, but let's not suggest he isn't freakishly robust.

Don't forget the canon weight of various pokemon he has hauled around over the years, sometimes one handed. Dude is ripped.

And Tai has done similar. Lol

[Dragonus45]

And Tai has done similar. Lol

Tai has decked a few digimon in his career but, leaving aside the “Ash lifted cosmoem that one time” meme stuff like having a 35pound bird perch in your fully extended wrist with no visible discomfort is pretty far out there by comparison.

[Traab]

Didnt he have a hippopotas riding on his head at one point? Like it had lost its parents or herd or whatever and they helped find it? Those things weigh over 100 pounds, and its just hanging out on top of a ten year old kids neck.